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Disrespect toward lesbian identities?

Discussion in 'General Support and Advice' started by Fallingdown7, Feb 28, 2014.

  1. Fallingdown7

    Fallingdown7 Guest

    Has anyone ever noticed how lesbians can be so devalued in our society sometimes? I'm not saying we have it harder than other sexualities because I understand everyone in our community has struggles- But at the same time, it also annoys me a bit when people think lesbians are completely accepted in our society even though a lot of people don't take them seriously.

    I have some examples for you from my own experiences:

    First of all, I'm out to a lot of people and they seem fine/cool with it. But my straight friends who know will still constantly push attractive men on me and tease me if I compliment a guy in any way shape or form. Yet if I do the same to them with women, they get defensive because they're straight. Sometimes, if I mention being single and looking, they'd even try to hook me up with guys. I'm constantly told that female sexuality is fluid and I might end up with a man later.

    Another is with some (not all) straight guys. You tell them you're a lesbian and not interested and they think you're a challenge and keep perusing you. Plenty of guys think your relationships exists for their pleasure and that they can 'turn' you. I rejected one guy that liked me because I had a girlfriend at the time, and he asked if we could send him a sex tape to watch. We weren't even sexually active, and it generally creeped me out. Sometimes I feel unsafe walking around as a gay woman because of the fears of corrective rape or sexual harassment.

    Here's another odd one. Before I came out, my parents were overprotective about me being near boys. They always believed I wouldn't ever be ready for sex because of my disability. But when I came out...they seemed relieved. My parents told me that two women can't actually have sex so I wouldn't feel any emotional consequences if I did it unlike if I did it with a boy. I was offended by this because I valued my sexual experiences like any straight couple. Quite frankly I would have been less angry if they told me lesbian sex was wrong and disgusting, because at least they would have acknowledged it.

    I've also noticed that straight women can experiment with a bunch of women and still be seen as straight, but if a lesbian wants to experiment with a man, It's seen as a huge deal in the realm of her sexual experiences. Wtf? I've had a few straight friends that did something like that (Bi-curious experimentation), and since they believed it was "nothing", they also disregard actual lesbian identities all together.

    I mean, sometimes there are days when I want to hide back in the closet after dealing with so much of this.

    Has anyone else been through crap like this?
     
  2. Rosepetal

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    ignore ignorant ppl ,or u could throw attractive women n tease them :slight_smile: i know i cant say but i know it feels when ppl degrade you. What i did is ignore tht im pissed nd make jokes and make the situation comfortable 4 them :slight_smile:
     
  3. ThePhoenix

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    Can't say I've had any of these things happen some considering I'm not sure about myself, but from your examples
    some of your friends don't seem to full grasp your orientation. Your orientation doesn't meant you can't notice or know what an attractive person looks like. You can't change who you are.

    Some men can just be dogs, naive, Idiots you name it.

    Sex is sex there can't or shouldn't really be any misconceptions of what counts and what doesn't its all sexual or a sexual act therefore should be considered sex.

    Nothing is wrong with experimentation and I don't see why that should be frowned upon for one and not the other.

    All in all I don't understand why any of that happens ugh people and society what a messed and mixed up bunch we are.
     
  4. Fallingdown7

    Fallingdown7 Guest

    I agree with you on all accounts.

    I can notice a man is good looking, but not sexually attractive. And I'll compliment any man in a platonic way.

    Agreed on men and sex.

    I'm not against experimentation of any kind, but what I was more so getting at is how straight women can do it with women and it "doesn't count" when it comes to changing their straight identity/and can be left casual. But a lesbian doing it with a man invalidates her lesbian identity in a lot of ways and is sometimes seen as more serious than her encounters with long-term girlfriends!

    That's what bugs me.....it should be kept equal on all accounts. I went through old periods of being curious about guys but never acted on it because I knew how I would be treated in regards to my identity. It's sad really ): Thanks for your comment!
     
  5. ThePhoenix

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    First off your welcome and I didn't mean to say that you thought it wasn't and I was actually trying to say that and that one should not be considered more serious than the other. It comes down to society and people in general some of us have a weird way of thinking/beliefs on a subject and use it to judge others accordingly. True equality is something not everyone has grasped or wants.
     
  6. Disappear

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    I totally agree on the first one. It's like everyone is still thinking "oh she just needs to find the right man"

    But then, Im thinking about the second one. What if it is the other way around - if a man tells he's gay - do women still try to 'turn' him or do they leave him to be gay? Could someone maybe light this one for me, please? Kinda stupid, but Im actually interested in to hear about others experience :slight_smile:
     
  7. Ettina

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    They have the same reaction to asexual women. What really creeps me out is that telling them I was sexually abused and find sex scary only seems to encourage them to act like total creeps.
     
  8. Beetle

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    Yup, seen all of this before.

    I think it has a lot to do with how male-oriented our society is. Some men see lesbians as nothing more than something to turn them on (well, two hot straight bimbos making out and having sex) because they like to imagine having a threesome with them.

    Some see lesbians as a threat to their manhood. Like you said, they perceive lesbians as a challenge that they can turn straight, egotistical sexually driven men do not like being turned down. They don't like taking no for an answer and even telling them you're a lesbian just makes it more of a challenge for them, or they think you're lying.

    And the whole "lesbian sex isn't real" because no penis is involved, yet a lesbian being raped is no longer a virgin. It's pretty sickening some people actually do think this way.

    Also heard "you just haven't found the right guy yet."
    "You're just a lesbian for the attention."
    "Were you sexually abused by a guy?"

    None of these have been targeted at me but I've heard stories from others.

    I too can recognize if a guy is handsome or cute but that does not mean I imagine him sleeping with me, nor do I get turned on by the thought of guys. It's the same deal as recognizing if anything is nice looking or ugly.
     
  9. softsprite

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    This is a huge problem, yes.

    I think my family wanted me to be a lesbian instead of bisexual because somehow they thought that would protect me from men and therefore from sexual harassment or assault. Truth is, I was assaulted anyway by a man who thought he could turn me back. Plus, women can assault EACH OTHER. Women can beat each other, women can get into abusive and toxic relationships with each other. I think the idea that women are "gentle" and "sweet" and that lesbian relationships are always just about snuggling and smooching is a really sexist idea. It's dumb, invalidating and downright dangerous. Women can be just as aggressive as men. Women can be players. Women can cheat, lie, steal and be generally terrible partners. We don't live on some magical island where no one gets hurt.

    I also agree that it's totally bizarre that straight girls can have and enjoy sex with other girls and deny a bisexual identity, whereas if a straight man had sex with other men he'd be considered bi or even gay and if a lesbian has sex with a man people won't let her claim a lesbian identity any more. The message is clear: men count more, men are more important. Once again, fundamental sexism behind the homophobia and lesbian minimization. This is a huge problem for true bisexuals, because it encourages us to take our relationships with women less seriously. Cheating suddenly isn't seen for what it is, because men interpret it as some kind of show for their benefit instead of perceiving the "other woman" as just that--a threat to the relationship. It's very confusing. Thanks for this post!
     
  10. Fallingdown7

    Fallingdown7 Guest

    Speaking of which, a relative of mine had a lot of bad experiences with men, so now she's a misandrist and always talks about how she wishes she were a lesbian, and how lesbians are so lucky for not being able to deal with men. Ugh, it's so infuriating to me. Especially since I was emotionally abused, cheated on and lied to by a few of my ex-girlfriends. She seems to think all men are cheaters and liars and that women are comforting. I don't understand where this idea comes from. My dad has never cheated on, mistreated or lied to (About serious issues- we all lie sometimes) to my mom, but yet the girls I dated did all of the above to me.

    Real bisexuals are caught in the middle of the issues as well. There are plenty of straight girls pretending to be bisexual because the media devalues lesbians as male property, and they think acting that way gets them more guys.
    Dating can be overall harder for them; straight men may objectify them for their bisexuality and try to get them to use it for their own fetishes, while lesbians are threatened by them and refuse to date them because of fears of comparing to a man or being invalidated by a man.

    This is all disgustingly screwed up and just harms people more and more, creating a vicious cycle.
     
  11. softsprite

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    Thank you!!! Yes, being bisexual might seem like fun or somehow easier but we actually have a really hard time dating for the reasons you mentioned.

    And yes, it disturbs me when straight women say they want to "turn lesbian" because a man broke their heart. I've shed far more tears over women than men in my life. I can't see what's "comforting" about the terrors, joys, disappointments, fears and vulnerability that accompany falling in love...with anyone. Friendship is comforting.
     
  12. Ettina

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    I had a WGST prof like that. Really made me mad. She got into an argument with me in class about whether a woman could rape a man. (She seemed to think rape had to be penetration and if the victim got aroused it wasn't rape.)
     
  13. Fallingdown7

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    I hate both the penetration and the aroused thing, regardless of gender match-up.

    A woman I know was assaulted by a man, but no penetration was involved. But that didn't matter. She's still been struggling with PTSD for decades. And I have female friends who were assaulted by women.

    I don't personally know any male victims in my life, but I DO know it happens, and It's just as disgusting as men assaulting women.

    Plus even female victims that are raped by men get aroused and sometimes even orgasm. Does that mean they liked it? No. It's just a body response.

    I forgot to reply to your message on asexual women too- WOW. That is the most disgusting thing I ever heard, and I can't believe you were treated that way. Unfortunately, asexuals face corrective rape issues too. Some men just can't stand the thought of a woman not wanting him; whether she only has sexual interest in women, or no sexual interest at all.
     
    #13 Fallingdown7, Mar 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 1, 2014
  14. girlonfire

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    This seems to be what I have to look forward to when I come out. I think it's just girls in general that do this because it's usually accepted for them to experiment, so when it's a real orientation they don't really....acknowledge it.
     
  15. Fallingdown7

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    Yeah I agree. It seems like lesbians are only "accepted" because they're seen as inferior and less threatening.

    I feel like girl-girl experimentation is encouraged for the wrong reasons. It's because it "isn't real sex" or "It turns men on".

    But that puts REAL lesbians into a horrible position of how they are going to be treated and viewed.

    I would not mind experimentation if It's for the right reasons (curiosity and such) but it has to be treated equally. If straight girls can experiment with girls while still staying straight, and the experience being "casual fooling around", then lesbians experimenting with men is the same/
     
  16. Disappear

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    I find it so hilarious when my friends tell me they want to turn lesbian, cause they're so frustrated with men. They have no idea how much it actually hurts when they tell me how lucky I am because I dont have all the drama with men. As if my relationships with women wouldn't count at all..
     
  17. Fallingdown7

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    I find this hilarious because women generally have more drama than men do, so just imagine TWO of them together.

    Plus I like to tell them It's not easy. Straight girls think It's easier because of the stereotype that men want more sex, and It's hard to find a guy who won't use them for sex. But this is actually a BIGGER problem in the lesbian community because our dating pool is filled with experimental straight girls lying about their sexuality.

    And even if they find the right girl....they lose a lot of privileges like marriage and parenting rights (Depending on their area). They'll face discrimination from others. Yeah, that's a real walk in the park.
     
  18. Beetle

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    Had a friend say this too..."lesbians are lucky because women are so much more understanding. I wish I was lesbian."

    Women can be just as "evil" as men, plus I wouldn't consider it lucky that while holding my girlfriend's hand or kissing her in public, I will have to worry about our safety and possibly our lives.
     
  19. softsprite

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    I guess people who've never experienced homophobia forget that it actually exists. Not just institutionally when it comes to marriage, hospital visits, taxes, wills, property, etc. But also that ugly horrible fear when you're just holding hands or trying to have dinner together in public. Don't know why anyone would want to bring that upon themselves intentionally. Which is why I don't understand why people think bisexuals would come out for attention when it puts them at real risk of homophobic attacks.
     
  20. fortheloveoflez

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    I do find that straight women thing annoying...it's like no matter what they do society brands them as "straight"...and I'm sure you can probably imagine reasons why...women have been historically considered as sexual property to men and their desires/say about the matter has been historically so minimal...so no wonder society does this thing...

    So Yes. I have certainly noticed this firsthand. Funny part is that before I knew anything about the lgbt community for whatever reason I assumed that "lesbian problems" didn't exist. You know why? Because by in large, and historically, the lgbt community has been primarily about gay men. Just think about it. Lesbians had an additional roadblock which is institutionalized sexism. Therefore, I think that at the moment when the gay movement started in the US it was mainly populated by the most "advantaged" group in the lgbt society which is gay white men. Women could have joined the ranks, and they certainly played a key role in trying to help gay men especially during the AIDs epidemic in the 80s, but out of the ones that were activists I'm sure they were more concerned with the feminist movement. This was more crucial to them at the time, where they had unequal pay and employment opportunities for example and didn't vouch for "a man to lean on". This is not an unusual story in history; women typically have gotten their rights second...and got second in representation.

    With that in mind, it is no shock that when people think of the lgbt community they immediately imagine a white gay man like let's say Anderson Cooper. I also think that men are more encouraged from a young age to be more self-driven whereas women are more encouraged to be group-driven...so what's the result? Typically women come out later in life, to appease the others, and also because they have been taught indirectly that their actual wants and desires are secondary to others. Now, this is espacially true for sexuality in which women get the short end of the stick because we are taught to repress our selves, ignore our sexuality and virtually all that is taught about sex is from a heterosexual male perspective. So where are we to get our answers from? It takes more reflection on our part to realize...hey, I LIKE women in THAT way and I am INDEPENDENT and I have the right for my OWN happiness....of course, times are changing but if you look at traditional society this was more or less how things have been in probably most countries

    ---------- Post added 3rd Mar 2014 at 01:14 PM ----------

    I agree, sad but true.
     
    #20 fortheloveoflez, Mar 3, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014