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Low self-esteem derived from the gay personality

Discussion in 'General Support and Advice' started by fredd, Jun 21, 2014.

  1. fredd

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    Hello,

    (Sorry for long post) I just want some advice about your experiences with low self-esteem. I'm a 26 year old gay male. I've never really been able to make friends due to crippling shyness and a bad childhood within a 'good' and religious family.

    I think I've been dealing with depression for some time and things are now going from bad to worse. There are a lot of things going on but I want to bring up something that has always been there my whole life and which, I think, undermines my whole existence and which never seems to be spoken about in society.

    I am gay but not flamboyant or camp - I'm not obviously feminine. However I have never been interested in typically straight male things like competitive sports or engineering. I cannot hold a conversation with a straight guy. We are like different species. I've had problems with my dad and older brother who have rejected me at a young age. I was always the scapegoat and the fair game to be mocked by them. Basically, I have no problem with being gay - which merely concerns my same-sex attraction. But I struggle emotionally by being excluded from the male world. It's like the gay personality (and I know there is no such demarcated thing) in that my personality is also gender neutral, maybe leaning towards a female. However I have no interest in changing gender. I just want to be accepted as a male, to be able to fit in, to be respected and accepted and to not feel ashamed of who I am. I am cautiously out to anyone who asks or if the topic comes up - this relates to work and family. I am currently living with my parents as my job is too low paid to move out. Family are OK about my homosexuality now as long as it is not discussed. I give them no grief as I am very quiet, self-contained, never go out with friends, never cause trouble, never invite anyone home. But by me being gay it has been an inconvenience for them - they are religious.

    Other aspects that I hate are the way I walk. It is a gay walk that I have tried so hard to change but can't! When I walk towards a glass door I cringe and try to avoid seeing my walk. The way I stand. In photographs I always seem to be standing awkwardly. My face and body. My hair, eyes, mouth and upper body are just horrible to look at because they remind me of the lack of care I take in myself.

    These feelings were present throughout my childhood but were in retreat when I went to university. There, I fell into a habit of sleeping around to get some company, I was that lonely. It was (and remains sadly) the only way I know how to make a friend. Through this I made many fleeting acquaintances but one strong friend - the only good friend with whom I am still in regular contact, though he lives far away, and does not want to know of my mental health problems (I can't blame him) and that is why I am posting here. I have recently met someone local, however, a much older guy, who I have no interest in sleeping with, and am testing out what will happen by refusing to sleep with him (I think he thinks I am teasing or making him wait but I have been clear with him that it won't happen). It turns out that while he is a nice guy, we don't have any interests in common (he is a gay motorhead) so maybe this is setting myself up for failure when the inevitable drifting away occurs. I also feel very regretful and sad when I compare myself to him because his personality and interests are perfectly acceptable in the straight world, unlike me. I wanted to be friends, and decided it could be a test to see if I can do it.

    I really am so lonely and feel like while "it gets better" for some, it's not happening for me. I still have no idea how to make friends in a healthy way because I can't believe anyone would like me. I was always too embarrassed to have any hobbies because I would be picked on as a kid due to none of my hobbies being "acceptable masculine pursuits". I now guard and hide very carefully: my music, my few passions, my dreams, no-one knows them except me because I am embarrassed and ashamed of them. And I have no friends locally that I could pursue new hobbies with.

    I also got a reasonably good degree from university a few years ago (at school I was always getting top marks) but have been unable to progress further due to my own crippling lack of self-confidence. I have applied for jobs, further studies, has been so hard to even apply for because I struggle to write well of myself or imagine anyone wanting to employ or accept me into their institution. I am stuck in a dead-end job going nowhere and which I cannot get reduced hours for, due to a very busy season this Summer in my country. So I have very little free time. Even my job is the domain, largely, of females.

    Please don't be offended I love females and respect them but I lose self-esteem when people make me feel that I am one. Some people at work are also now making comments (I have told a few coworkers I am gay) and jokes that I am gay or camp or strange. The jokes are far too subtle though and part of a culture in which I could not complain, unless it is more overt or nasty. I thought about calling him out for what he was saying - but I chickened out. I am really ashamed of myself in all the above ways. I don't want to feel this way! I think that the root of my deep shame is that I have been born with a gay personality in a society which says that is to be 'weak' and 'pathetic' and 'stupid' and 'worthless'. While it's somewhat easy for me to talk to females, I also feel ashamed of the ease with which I can, and the seeming impossibility to do the same with males.

    Please can anyone who has/had similar problems get in touch, I would really appreciate another perspective or like-minded soul or advice. Thanks
     
    #1 fredd, Jun 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  2. bingostring

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    Well done for posting. It is a very interesting subject and more relevant to many guys than maybe you realise.

    I think many gay people hold the (incorrect) core belief that gay people are 'defective' outsiders and abnormal as painted by society and religion. This makes it almost inevitable that self-esteem issues can build up inside people to various degrees. Throw depression in to the mix and you are fighting with both hands tied behind your back.

    I think there are several fronts you could work on though. Following your interests in groups or clubs/ societies. Main purpose: To widen out the number of people who know you as a great guy. From this enlarged group someone will come in to your life who is attracted to you or just wants to be a friend of yours. You are clearly sensitive and intelligent.

    Secondly, take part in interest groups that are LGBT themed. So your very presence at a meeting or social event tells everyone that you are gay. You don't have to 'out' yourself so to speak .. just because you are there.

    Fear or wariness of straight men often results from internalised homophobia. This is a common cause of bringing down self esteem and this is another area to explore.

    Therapists - have you tried this? A whole world of possibilities to help you unscramble the damage done by these corrosive beliefs.

    Depending where you live there are purpose designed week, or week end, events for people like you where you can expand yourself in a group setting … more on this later maybe.

    Oh, and "shame" .. a lot of people will prompt you to research Shame. And to look at TED lectures on YouTube by Brenee Brown. Give that a go too!

    Keep chatting with EC-ers .. many great people here!!
     
    #2 bingostring, Jun 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2014
  3. Ashanti

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    Hi,

    Can i ask what your hobbies are..
    I'm in the same boat...

    I'm a geek nothing masculine about being geek...
    I work-out... but i don't like rugby or any masculine sports or hobbies...
    I have very few friends just one or two....i get hit on by men a lot though, find it easy to talk to females and i hang with the girls at work instead of the boys but my co workers are starting to as questions about my sexuality...


    My family are religious hard core and i have not mentioned anything to them bout my sexuality as they would disown me!

    About your gay walk.. Who cares! If people do not like the way you walk then thats their problem not yours.... seriously has anyone said anything about the way you walk?

    I think i off "Gay vibes" for example at the gym no guy talks to me at all, this so strange.... for instance one guy was doing the bench press for a while and then some random guy walks into the gym and he asks him to spot him... Now i was on the next machine to him yet he never asked me to spot him... so strange...

    Another thing.. It's wrong to let others control your life by they way they treat you....
    I did for 10 years of my life and wasted all those years because of other peoples nastiness, if people treat you bad then move on to others.
     
  4. fredd

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    Hi bingostring and Ashanti, Thanks for replying!

    I think it's not just gays who see gays as defective, plenty straight people do too even some of whom don't realise it.

    I don't really have any hobbies/interests nor time for them. There are some things I'd like to try though, given an opportunity and time. My parents are controlling and not trusting of me the gay one. It's awkward as hell but I can't afford to move out so feel stuck in this situation which is really getting me down.

    One day I will go to 'the city' near me and attend some gay themed social group, if I can find one. But where I live there's not much that happens in the way of gay things. Bingo string would you have any insight into how to find these groups? I've been to gay societies before at universities and I never gelled with the people, in fact felt quite different and didn't fit in despite reaching out.

    Opposite situation, in my subject class it was me doing the avoiding of friendly people since I didn't know how to handle people and it's easier to not even try than to try and fail with people you'd see every day.

    I can't afford a therapist lol and I'm not sure it would even help. I was sent to two when I was about 16 and just set about showing how lucid, normal and fine I was, and they bought it. At times at university I also had counsellors, which I'm not sure helped, because we'd focus on the bad things which made me feel worse, as opposed to how to fix it all, or practising methods of how to fix it.

    Brenee Brown is interesting cheers - I'm already familiar with her. I like her.

    Ashanti, geeks are kinda masculine in my opinion. In what way are you a geek though? I've noticed people have different definitions of that word.

    I wouldn't even know if I was being hit on, I don't see flirting, to me it's just talk/communication. I used to work out a lot and would sometimes be asked to spot. Working out gave me tremendous feelings of pride and confidence and momentum. Part of that was challenging my own old beliefs that only straight guys deserve to be in there and that I was an imposter. Thinking back I know I need to get back to a gym but my current employment and small-hometown (think bumping into folk you were at school with or work with all the time) is at present repelling. Also I have little free time and inconsistent work times that have me jet-lagged and tired nearly all the time. I wonder if the guy next to you in your gym was asking a friend of his to spot him - you'd ask an acquaintance or friend before a complete stranger. Personally I wouldn't ask anyone to spot me lol.

    Yes for e.g. just Friday night, at work I had a demonstration of how I walk shown to me by my supervisor after somebody else was banging on about me reminding him of some famous gay person. It was all some kind of joke but I took it badly.

    ---
    Guys I'm sorry for being a total downer in this. Talking about heading back to the gym has got me quite excited. This was something that helped me hugely before. I've decided here and now I'm going to see to that and take more care of my sleep to ensure I minimise the tiredness/sleep problems. I'll certainly stick around this website if there are people like yourselves here.
     
  5. bingostring

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    You know, doing those two simple things - like getting back in to the gym regularly and also sorting out sleep patterns - will make a hell of a difference in a very short time.

    As far as widening hobbies/ interests goes you only have to choose ONE and it will take you off in new directions. Maybe choose one that is so different from your other interests.

    Do I detect traces of social phobia? This needs sorting out or else it will hinder you a lot. You need to get 'out there' and step outside that comfort zone

    Well I have some ideas for gay organisations but I only know of ones in the UK so I do not know where you are …but may not be much use to you if you are in another country
     
  6. fredd

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    Hi bingostring,

    Tried sending Private Message but I can't until I'm a full member.

    How are things going with you?

    I'm in Scotland! I know of the UK based website Outdoor Lads but that's never worked out (I'm so last-minute I've never been in time to organise a trip) plus it seems most of the events are attended by older guys and/or guys who don't stay near me! What other websites do you know for networking with other gay people?

    Your help is hugely appreciated,
    fredd :slight_smile:
     
  7. bingostring

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    hey .. I will post on your wall

    and you should be in bed!! :dry:
     
  8. Electra

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    Fredd

    Thank you for your honest and frank posts. Not sure how old you are, but so much resonates with my own experiences over the years. The things you are feeling, the conflicts you are having span the generations, regardless of where you are from, how ‘out’ you are, whether you are outwardly camp or flamboyant or have easily hidden feminine traits or none of the above. They are all part of the glorious challenge of finding that you are attracted to the same sex in a world where that is still not seen as normal.

    Not sure how relevant this is, but reading your posts I just assumed you lived in some ultra-conservative US state and it was interesting when you said you were from Scotland. There has been such a huge change in people’s attitudes to homosexuality in the UK over the last few decades and society continues to get more and more accepting. I know we have a long way to go, and not living in a ‘city’ means it can still be very hard, but there are probably not many countries in the world where things are truly ‘getting better’ almost by the day. This can only help people like us as we struggle to accept our true authentic selves.

    Yes you do feel ‘shame’ – that is natural. It is a well known and much researched fact about being gay. This ‘shame’ cannot be avoided. In my experience until we turn and face it full on, we cannot move on out of our habitual ‘avoidance’ behaviours. This can be very painful and I wish I could offer some easy way forward, but I can say (as you know in your heart) that it is NOT YOUR FAULT. The bottom line is we are sexually attracted to the same sex and this is something that will never change – it is how we are. However the rest is up for the grabs.

    So what would it be like if we found men attractive and society 100% accepted that as normal (part of a wonderful spectrum of sexualities people are just born with)? How liberating that would be?

    Now imagine that in that ideal society, people also were ‘allowed’ to just be themselves and whether gay, straight, bi, transgender – could also be as feminine or masculine as they wanted, or even show a mix of feminine or masculine traits in different areas of their life – and even better that society gave equal value to both. Again how absolutely liberating that would be.

    So what if you didn’t wait for society to catch up but accepted right now that as well as it being ok to be ‘turned on’ by the male physique, you also could also accept that you could ‘walk’ however you wanted, that you could be soft and caring and sensitive – because to show those feminine traits is not ‘weak’. And at the same time it would be ok to enjoy working out and respecting your own male body for the wonderful thing it is.

    I think my own struggles have all been around internalised homophobia and about struggling to fit some ‘norm’ (both when I was in the closet and trying to fit into being a ‘normal’ male and when I ‘came out’ trying to work out ‘why I wasn’t like other gays’). All the time I had been comparing myself to others I was avoiding looking at myself.

    In one of your posts you said: “Please don't be offended I love females and respect them but I lose self-esteem when people make me feel that I am one.” May be of all the things you are grappling with this is one to hone in on and to the tackle the deep contradictions within it. Society has made us feel ‘not normal’ for being gay and has topped that off by making us feel inferior for showing feminine traits. A double whammy. You are who you are and there are no rules for how to be gay. Stereotypes are exactly that. Celebrate that you don’t fit them.

    Anyway – keep posting on EC –it’s a great place to help people ‘work through stuff’. Hope my words are useful? All written from the furnace of experience! In a nutshell it isn’t easy (as you clearly know!) but it is what it is and all we can do is stand tall and let the ‘bad stuff’ be and the ‘good stuff’ grow…
     
  9. Damien

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    Fred,

    I can relate to so much of what you said. The low self esteem, the ease of being able to relate and chat with women, yet being excluded from the 'male world' by more blokey types, who have always seemed to have a mistrust of me - now I know why. I really do know how you feel. Apart from the religious family - my parents were not that way - we have a lot in common.


    Just one thing, though: since I accepted being attracted to guys as well as girls (I am a recent addition to the lgbt community), I have been kind of allowing myself at last - while at home alone of course, and not in public - to move or dance in a more feminine way, which actually comes naturally for me, just that I always repressed it when I believed myself to be 'straight'. The thing is, I love this new freedom to explore the feminine within, rather than feel bad about it. Like yourself I have no desire to be a woman, I love being a guy, just that, there are situations in gay life when one takes the position of a female, if you know what I mean..in the sense of getting it rather than giving it...and it feels good to surrender to this, even just in fantasy it's been liberating for me. If you naturally walk slightly feminine, I would not hate that, I think that sounds very loveable, actually. :slight_smile:

    Argh, I know it's easy to repeat the words 'I love and accept myself' but much harder to feel them, to really mean it. Learning how to forgive yourself - even if you have done nothing wrong to be forgiven, as is the case with both you and I - but still, you need to forgive yourself for not being perfect. We are all just humble human beings, all have some good qualities, some bad, but no one is 'perfect', whatever the hell that is. It's taken me years to be able to look into my own eyes in the mirror, and love that being looking back at me. Years of counselling, and personal work. But I have done it, I used to loathe myself when I was just a bit younger than yourself, and now, I do love and accept myself, yes even with all my 'imperfections'. So you are imperfect? Welcome to the human race! We are neither 'worthy', nor 'unworthy', of love. These notions are irrelevant. Love is a need. It's a gift that has to be given without any conditions. From kings to beggars, everyone needs love to survive. And it has to begin with you. You need to practice self forgiveness (even though, you haven't really done anything wrong, but u know what I mean), forgive the fact that you have all these 'imperfections' that you resent, and at least begin to not hate yourself. Love can come later, first we need to just not loathe! I know it's a real battle at times, but you will get there.

    More another time, but my arms are a bit sore, I have typed a fair bit over today...take care, I bet you are a really great guy and just don't realize it yet!

    Damien :slight_smile:
     
  10. Ashanti

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    Hi Fredd,

    My Hobbies are PC games, Networks , new gadgets , Electronics , Role-playing games , fast cars and hot guys lol

    Yes i have been hit on very often... Once i was waiting at a bus stop and this car pulls up toots its horn and i went up to the car thinking it might be someone i know, but he wanted me to hop in gave very gay signals lol... i no way go with strangers...
    Also at the gay bars randoms just feel me up haha

    Since i was a teen I have always been attracted to Men lol I used to buy the workout training mags just to check those ripped hot guys out:slight_smile:

    I have had a girlfriend but that did not last and she had no idea back then i was gay/bi....
    after we broke up and 2 years later we met up again just to meet for coffee n "catch up" and she noticed me checking out guys walking along the pavement and she asked me randomly " Your not gay or bi are you" and i lied and said no lol

    There is also nothing wrong with being a bit feminine... maybe the way you talk and walk is sexy for a guy i reckon as its hard to be girl being born guy!