1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

I was being accused of being manipulative and playing games: Any feedback welcome

Discussion in 'General Support and Advice' started by Fullofsurprises, Apr 9, 2016.

  1. Hello,

    I have never been called manipulative. If anything, I have quite my share of manipulators and brainwashed. On a different forum, a gay guy said that I was being manipulative, playing games and playing victim.

    Here's what happened. I made a topic on what healthy sex is. I then said that I think healthy for me is to do whatever is pleasurable and empowering. A gay guy then said, "your statement can be misconstrued to include rape." I then said I was upset that someone could misread my statement as including a lack of consent. I also revealed that I was a mental health worker, where my colleagues and I agree that people should do what they like. Nobody can dictate what healthy is for you (as long as it's not harmful).

    The guy got upset, and then I got upset for being called manipulative. He told me that I might be lying about being a mental health worker, and how I was trying to solicit information. He also then said I twisted his words to play victim.

    I apologized to him and said that I didn't mean anything that way. I wasn't intentionally trying to play games. I just felt so upset at hurting him and so upset at the thought of being a manipulator.

    Was I being manipulative? I asked all of my friends in real life to honestly tell me I was being manipulative. They all said no way, and maybe he was just triggered by something that I said.

    Can someone define being manipulative? I always associated it with abusers and personality disordered people (narcissists, etc).
     
  2. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,802
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Far above the clouds, gazing deep below the Earth
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    I think he was just throwing around big words, to be honest. You seem really nice to me from what little I've seen you around the forums. :slight_smile:
     
  3. Thank you. I try my best to be polite. I can get triggered too, and get emotional. :frowning2:

    I just hope expressing one's emotions isn't considered manipulation. I would rather feel things than bottle them up! Forums are the easiest outlet to vent your emotions anonymously haha. Maybe some people think that being emotional is manipulative.
     
  4. Euler

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    Northern Europe
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Well, this was no doubt a bizarre exchange but it did not come as manipulative to me.

    Just out of curiosity exactly what do you do for living? No offense but you don't come across as someone who has special training in mental health issues. I mean you are unsure of the meaning of manipulation which is a pretty basic concept in psychology. Not that this would preclude from working in a mental health field but I just got curious what is it that you actually do.
     
  5. I'm a licensed psychotherapist with a masters degree in clinical psychology. I have been working with rape victims and child sexual abuse survivors for five years using trauma-focused cbt and dbt. To me, manipulative behaviors are associated with abusers, sociopaths, and personality disordered behaviors. I will tell you that therapists are human that make mistakes. I have know therapists that have been manipulated by people outside of the job, or have been manipulative themselves. Nobody is perfect nor do they know everything.

    I am open to learning and growing, which is why I'm asking how others perceive manipulation. This man planted a seed of self doubt. I also try to empathize with other people's perspectives.

    Why would you assume that I haven't had special training in mental health issues? If you want to judge me or doubt me, that's fine. I don't claim to be a know-it-all, just because I'm a therapist. You can still gain new insight and wisdom daily.

    Just curious-what do you do for work?

    ---------- Post added 9th Apr 2016 at 01:17 PM ----------

    I would like to add that I'm on forums for fun and just having deep conversations with people, if someone thinks it's strange for a therapist to be on the forums. In my experience, a lot of therapists aren't sensitive to LGBT issues.
     
    #5 Fullofsurprises, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2016
  6. One more thing that I would like to add-the four years of undergrad and two years of graduate school were filled with theories, concepts, statistics and an overview of all of the mental disorders in the dsm. Life experiences aren't always taught in graduate school. We learn at work or in our own personal life. I know I'm not the only one that has had her moments of self doubt or feeling like I was gas lighted.
     
  7. resu

    Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2013
    Messages:
    4,968
    Likes Received:
    395
    Location:
    Oklahoma City
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Try not to engage with such internet debaters when they use logical fallacies like ad hominem attacks. People often write more aggressively than they would ever talk in real life, which is one of the drawbacks of digital communication.
     
  8. AKTodd

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,190
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    This is probably going to come across as much harsher than it's intended to be but:

    You seem to get really very emotional about what other people think about you, or what you think they might be thinking about you. Both your description of your reaction to the person on the other forum and to Euler's question comes across as both somewhat defensive and rather concerned (I would personally consider it overly concerned) with what other people (complete strangers for that matter) think.

    Some people might interpret that behavior as an attempt at being manipulative, whether you mean it to be or not. And really, nearly all human social interaction is a multi-directional exercise in manipulation anyway. Everyone is always trying to manipulate everyone else, when you get right down to it. We may dress it up with pretty words like 'wanting to make a good impression' or 'wanting to maintain a professional atmosphere', but at the end of the day it's really just all manipulation, objectively speaking. As I see it anyway.

    Assuming your reactions (here and on the other forum) are genuinely reflecting your emotions, then I'd suggest trying to step back a bit and not take statements by random strangers so personally, nor worry about them overmuch.

    My 2c worth,

    Todd
     
  9. I would like to know how I came off as defensive. How do you not come off as defensive then?
     
    #9 Fullofsurprises, Apr 9, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 9, 2016
  10. Euler

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2015
    Messages:
    1,061
    Likes Received:
    11
    Location:
    Northern Europe
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Questioning
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Psychological manipulation is action that seeks to influence its target's perceptions, attitudes or behavior using underhand and shady tactics that seek to promote the interests of the manipulator at the expense of the target. Although this is typical in different personality disorders but it is not exclusively limited to them. Even a normal "good" person may sometimes knowingly or unknowingly engage in manipulative behavior. My sister is a good example of that. She doesn't even always realize that what she is doing is manipulation.

    Sure, just having a degree in psychology or psychiatry does not make one immune to manipulation. In often cases it can be next to impossible to realize that one is being manipulated if the target does not have all the information that the manipulator has. For example, when the manipulator lies and the lie goes undetected it is virtually impossible to know that one is being manipulated.

    Well, in general one should not take anything said online too seriously. Self-reflection is good but if you cannot find good arguments for a case and the other person cannot provide such then the chances are that his case was not an issue in the first place.

    Maybe there was misunderstanding but I got the impression you do not really understand what is meant by the term "psychological manipulation". This strikes as odd to me for someone who claims to work in a mental health profession as even my high school psychology courses the concept of psychological manipulation was extensively explained. I have no formal education in psychology and by no means do I want to challenges your competence or truthfulness of your claims. This got my attention when you said that the other guy accused you of lying about your profession and I thought to myself that I can actually see why he feels that way.

    And just for the record one doesn't have to be good in different therapeutic theories to be a good therapist. Meta studies indicate that the school of thought doesn't really affect the effectiveness of a therapy - it's the personality and interaction of the therapist that most strongly predict the success of the treatment.

    I'm a project manager with a master's degree in financial economics. No psychology background except some high school courses, self studies and a few sessions with a therapist.

    It's not odd that a therapist would have a life outside their work. I mean just because one is a therapist does not mean that they are gods and free from the problems and emotions of ordinary mortals.
     
    #10 Euler, Apr 10, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
  11. Helion Solaris

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2015
    Messages:
    84
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Cape Town
    I can see both your points, OP and "online replier." I what you said was, "Healthy sex is doing whatever is pleasurable and empowering," without putting it into context with something like, "without harming someone else against their will," you opened the door for some who is looking for something to fixate on. He was probably a troll, but had a valid point. Without adding something like that your statement could be taken to include rape. Well not really for a sane, logical and thinking person, but in web-comments there is but a few.

    I think you took offence that he would think someone in your profession, with your life experiences would think like that so you just asked him to clarify and he did what all trolls do- avoid answering.

    In the end I think you maybe should've specified more, even though it wasn't really necessary, just avoid things like that. But from what things sound like, you're not a manipulator in the malicious sense at all. You just seem like a curious, thinking person who wants an unambiguous answer to a simple question.

    Hope I helped. It's been awhile since I've commented on something. :slight_smile: :slight_smile:
     
  12. AKTodd

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2013
    Messages:
    3,190
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Well, let's see here...

    1) Getting so upset at being told that your original statement can be misunderstood, that you apparently literally told the guy on the other forum that you were upset.

    2) Making a point of telling him that you're a mental health worker, which could be interpreted as an appeal to authority (in this case your own) rhetorical technique aimed at dismissing his stated concern, rather than addressing it.

    3) Going through the effort of presumably relating this event to 'all of your friends' in the real world as part of seeking validation that you were not, in fact, being manipulative. Maybe you were all getting together the next day anyway or something, but as written it creates a mental picture of you calling them all one after the other, or setting up a group get together just for the purpose of talking to them about this, or a mass emailing, or something. Which feels like overkill as a reaction to the situation as described.

    4) Going onto another forum (EC) to relate the incident to a group of strangers and ask them for confirmation/validation that you are not, in fact, manipulative.

    5) Responding to Euler's post, not only with a statement about your training and credentials, but also these statements:

    a) I am open to learning and growing, which is why I'm asking how others perceive manipulation. This man planted a seed of self doubt. I also try to empathize with other people's perspectives.

    b) If you want to judge me or doubt me, that's fine.


    On a related note, while I can't speak for Euler, I can understand why he asked the question. I've had some association with people who work/have worked in mental health fields (a teacher who had worked at an institution, a co-worker who was a nurse and had worked mental health intake, a friend who is a therapist) and in all cases, I've gotten the sense from them that as part of their jobs it was/is not uncommon to deal with difficult and argumentative people, that confrontations of one kind or another were not unknown, and that they learned how to pretty much shrug it off. That you would get so upset by an argument with a random voice in the void on the internet comes across as out of character with my mental picture (based somewhat on experience) of how a mental health professional would react to such. That said, mental health professionals are human too, and can presumably be drawn into arguments and get upset just like anyone else. So, it is as likely that my mental picture (and possibly Euler's) is off base from the reality of how mental health professionals work and live. But I can see where Euler's coming from, at first blush.

    Coming at this from a totally different direction - As a mental health professional, and assuming you engage in some form of counseling or therapy with people, rather than just medicating them, then an argument could be made that you are a professional manipulator by definition. Since you are presumably interacting with your patients in a self-aware fashion that is consciously trying to guide them to some state of improved mental health or similar. However, in this case the manipulation is a legally and socially sanctioned activity, similar to how surgeons are legally and socially permitted to knock people out and cut them open to attempt to make them healthier.

    Going back to the original confrontation on the other forum:

    Acknowledge the guy's concern, explain that you meant (although you did not state) that mutual consent for the activity had been given by all parties, apologize for the misunderstanding, and then move on.

    If he wanted to keep pushing or start a fight at that point, that's his problem. Ideally ignore him or blow him off. Even if you get pulled into an online argument (which can happen to anybody), there's no need to keep dwelling on it and worrying about it long after the fact, let alone pulling your friends and other people into it to confirm you aren't, in fact, manipulative.

    For that matter, as I think about it, I would suggest that the guy from the other forum was, in fact, being manipulative. He apparently drew you into an argument, put you on the defensive, got you to actively worry that you had both hurt his feelings and were somehow at fault, and got you to engage a significant chunk of your time and emotional energy into reaching out to other people for support and validation after the fact.

    My 2c worth,

    Todd
     
  13. Euler-I have bolded your posts. My quote thing isn't working

    Well, in general one should not take anything said online too seriously. Self-reflection is good but if you cannot find good arguments for a case and the other person cannot provide such then the chances are that his case was not an issue in the first place.


    I know, but I'm also in my own current state of stress right now. I and my personal therapist understand why I would get triggered/reactive. I'm not going to write my whole life story, but I know the reason why an online comment can hit a nerve. Some people are naturally more sensitive than others. Mean comments and attacks on your character can sting and bring back other bad memories from the past. I logically know that I shouldn't take things personally, but the emotional part of the brain holds on to it.



    Maybe there was misunderstanding but I got the impression you do not really understand what is meant by the term "psychological manipulation". This strikes as odd to me for someone who claims to work in a mental health profession as even my high school psychology courses the concept of psychological manipulation was extensively explained. I have no formal education in psychology and by no means do I want to challenges your competence or truthfulness of your claims. This got my attention when you said that the other guy accused you of lying about your profession and I thought to myself that I can actually see why he feels that way.

    When I ask, "Can anyone define manipulation?," my point was just to hear other people's perspectives and see what they consider manipulative. I have a tendency to ask questions that I already know the answer too. I just like to facilitate discussion or hear what others have to say. My friends and I do this. We love sharing different ideas respectfully. I might learn something new from hearing someone's perspective. Does that make sense?


    And just for the record one doesn't have to be good in different therapeutic theories to be a good therapist. Meta studies indicate that the school of thought doesn't really affect the effectiveness of a therapy - it's the personality and interaction of the therapist that most strongly predict the success of the treatment.

    I agree! My point was that you don't always learn everything in school. A lot of what you learn is on the job and through life experience. We definitely talked about psychological manipulation in college/graduate school, but I didn't feel like it was discussed extensively in regards to relationships/friendships.




    It's not odd that a therapist would have a life outside their work. I mean just because one is a therapist does not mean that they are gods and free from the problems and emotions of ordinary mortals.



    Thanks for understanding. Again, being bisexual for me has been kind of a challenge. LIke others on here, I have had a few therapists be ignorant about bisexuality, which makes me think that not everyone has the answers to everything. I joined this forum just to connect with similar-minded people. I do feel that an LGBT can give a unique perspective on things. I

    Honestly, every therapist I've befriended has revealed that they have struggled with something that got them into the field: Bipolar disorder, past trauma, being in the foster care system, drug addiction, or having an eating disorder. I think the key is making sure that your issues aren't spilling into your work. When I post on forums, I can just let my hat down.
     
    #13 Fullofsurprises, Apr 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 10, 2016
  14. Thanks for explaining the defensive part.

    I'm hesitant to reveal this, but the idea of therapists/mental health workers being calm and able to shrug things off doesn't hold always true in my experience. It's easy to stay calm on the job, because you have to be professional and not impulsively do anything that can make you lose your profession. At the end of the day, that mental health professional may go home and still feel upset at whatever happened. They also may privately express their frustrations with their co-worker or supervisor. I have also gone out to dinner with therapist friends, just to hear them vent about a difficult client.

    When people ask me about my job, it's not necessary for me to tell them that I get instinctively stressed or upset at someone's difficult behavior. I just tell people what population I work with, and how I enjoy it. For the most part, I do love working with survivors of abuse. Interestingly, most of my clients don't get aggressive with me or talk like how the man on the forum did. It's not to say that aggressive/confrontational situations won't happen. They can, but I've been lucky.



    As I said to Euler, mean comments/abrasive arguments have always been a trigger for me. This is based on my past life experiences where I grew up being gaslighted. I'm working on improving, but I have my days where I may feel something too deeply. This man on the forum just happened to somehow bring up disturbing past memories flash before my eyes. I just felt off balance.

    I know posting on forums to get objective feedback may seem dramatic to others, BUT I think posting on a forum is better than doing something else that's more destructive. For me, I tend to feel a lot better and uplifted by just talking to someone.

    ---------- Post added 10th Apr 2016 at 06:57 AM ----------

    One more thing I would like to add-I find that those are quick to accuse others of being manipulative may be the manipulators themselves. People do project.

    ---------- Post added 10th Apr 2016 at 07:00 AM ----------


    Yes, you did help. It sounds like it was just a misunderstanding/miscommunication between the man and I.

    Again, being misunderstood and having my character attacked are sensitive areas for me. I just hate it, even though I tell myself to ignore and let go. I grew up in an environment where I had to defend myself and point out the facts/details. That part of my personality isn't easily obliterated. I also have a tendency to stick up for others that are being misjudged/victimized.
     
  15. I agree. Reacting back or engaging with someone can make matters worse.