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Homosexuality as sin?

Discussion in 'General Support and Advice' started by Uncolored, May 1, 2016.

  1. Uncolored

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    I had one of the bravest conversations that I have ever had in my life on Thursday night. It was extremely painful but I felt that I needed to hear it anyways. I came out to my pastor's wife. Which is basically coming out to the pastor himself (they have the same beliefs and preach together).
    She was very sympathetic to me, while not agreeing with homosexuality. I was so overwhelmed while she was talking that I can't remember everything she said to me. I think that my brain is trying to shield me by blocking it out too.
    Basically she told me the story about how she had a best friend who she was emotionally attracted to when she was younger. Her best friend was a lesbian. She talked about how she saw her friend walk down a negative path from God. It was kind of a long story but I could oddly relate. I know that a lot of gays are atheists (particularly lesbians). It honestly makes me really sad to think about and I have seen a lot of gays fall away from Christ.
    I have never been particularly against homosexuality from a religious view, even when I thought that I was straight. My gay neighbors are partnered and are religious people and I have never looked down on them or condemned them. After the conversation with my pastor's wife, I am having a hard time getting past it. Maybe it is sinful. For once I see a different perspective.
    For the first time ever I feel very shameful about it. I feel very shameful about myself, about some of the events I have gone to, some of the people I have associated myself with, the fact that I have dated women. Up until a few days ago I was pretty confident about myself.
    It almost makes me question if I should just pretend to be straight and hunt for a husband.
    What are your thoughts on Christianity and homosexuality? I especially want to hear your thoughts if you are a Christian.
     
  2. SillyGoose

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    Cutting sideburns is a sin and slavory isn't.. Sins are pointless
     
  3. Loppox

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    Hi there,

    Just so you know I am not christian, nor atheist, but grew up in a religious area. My parents have not raised me in a religious way, but I went to church sometimes and the schools I have attented were both christian ones. So I am not completely clueless regarding this religion.

    I too have been ashamed of my same-sex attractions because of some christians regarding it as a sin.

    You may be familiar with Leviticus, the third book of the old testament, which describes rules on how one should live. Yes, it does not encourage same sex behaviour. BUT, leviticus also condemns eating pork and many other things, which everyone does without seeing it as a sin.

    Eating pork is just as harmful as being a homosexual. That's right. Because what is the damage towards others? Absolutely zero. No, eating pork is even more harmful, because an animal has to die.

    The way I see christianity, or as is should be, is a place where people find comfort. Just like any other religion, a feeling of being loved and believing you do matter on this little planet. Where you can connect with other people and talk about your troubles, without being harmful.

    The love of Christ, right?

    I find it very shameful that some, and as far as I know most, Christians are not respectful to those around them (and being harmful to them). They even see people who have another religon, like low animals. I find it very disturbing that those people do that, while it is one of the values to love those around you, right?

    But then again the book. The Bible.

    The way I see the Bible, is not in a very literal way. I think of it more of a survival guide. Back in the day it was more about survival, then it is now. It has been written in a certain frame of beliefs, a culture-bounded book. It is only natural that such a book does not apply to our culture anymore. If you look closely we can see that also sexism is part of that book.

    We are in no such culture anymore and we certainly do not have to go back again.
    But then again it's all how you view it. People have different meanings and definitions on christianity and whatnot.

    I just tell myself this whenever I feel ashamed of myself: ''my essence of being is only made by ourselves. Essence is a concept made up by people and only people. I can make my own essence (more of an existentialistic view). As long as I don't harm anyone, why should it matter?''

    Again I focus on the love, on the things Jesus said.

    Good thread, have a nice day :slight_smile:
     
  4. FoxEars

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    The only thing against homosexuality in the bible is that "A man shall not lie with a man as he does a woman" or something along those lines. Since there isn't anything against a woman with a woman, I'm led to assume that this has no reference to homosexuality at all. It could mean that (since women were seen as inferior and less capable than men when the bible was written long ago) a man shouldn't treat another man like a woman, or as if the other man is inferior. I don't know if this is true, but other stupid things are sins such as wearing clothes with mixed fabrics and stuff. Remember that this stuff is old and WRITTEN BY MAN and NOT God Himself. There's obviously going to be mistakes and misunderstandings from translations and passing of stories. Honestly, there's nothing to worry about. You aren't doing anyone any harm by being homosexual, so why should it be a sin and frowned upon by God?
     
  5. Lance

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  6. PatrickUK

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    There are only a small number of verses out of the 66 books of the Bible that make any sort of reference to same sex activity/behaviour and they are frequently quoted without any appreciation for history and context. I emphasise history and context because it is so important when reading these passages, and the Bible more generally. If we treat scripture like the latest best seller and don't engage in deeper analysis and consideration, and if we fail to understand the different approaches to understanding these ancient books we might as well not bother at all. It's that simplistic approach that leads to the idea that all same sex relationships are sinful and disordered and it's just not true.

    The passages that seem to cause most concern about sin are taken (in isolation) from Leviticus, Genesis, Romans 1, 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy and many of us will be very familiar with them. If we read more carefully though and set them in context, and understand the historical development a very different picture begins to emerge that allows us to see things in a mature and sensible way without all of the fear.

    Private message me if you would like more information or detail.
     
  7. Kevin240

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    My husband and I belong to an Episcopal Church with a strong LGBT fellowship...we were married in the church, and our daughter was baptized there. We were both raised Catholic, but converted to the Episcopal faith because it didn't seem that we would ever be accepted as practicing Catholics.

    I don't know a lot about Scripture. My Pastor says that the Bible was written by men interpreting the word of God. He says that people need to understand that God's love is inclusive. He doesn't turn away from people who genuinely love and worship Him and try to live the best they can.

    We love each other and our daughter very much, and I don't understand how anyone can consider that sinful.
     
  8. Uncolored

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    Thanks Kevin for sharing this. It is fantastic that you have a fellowship like that. I really appreciate your insight and agree with you.

    Thanks to everyone who has posted, it really made me feel better about myself.
    Thanks Patrick, you are right with the historical context. Sometimes it is difficult to apply a historical context to the Bible.
    Thanks Lance for the resources, I am going to read all of them.
     
  9. OutofZCloset

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    I am a Christian. In fact, I was an atheist before my lesbian wife led me to Christ. The extreme religious people want you to belive you have to choose between Christ or being gay. You don't...you can be both. My family and I are affiliated with American First Baptist Church and everyone there supports our family. Our daughter has grown up in the church. If you love Christ and follow him don't worry about all the rest. It's just noise. He's not going to abandon you. He still loves you. Everything else is just noise. Stop feeling ashamed of who you are and live your life without pretending. God will still love you.

    Oh and stay away from that Pastors wife. Making you feel that way about yourself like that is rediculous and would make Christ himself cringe. If you know anything about Christ at all could you see him doing that to somebody? He was a long haired hippie who loved everbody and he loves you too.
     
    #9 OutofZCloset, May 2, 2016
    Last edited: May 2, 2016
  10. ZuzHR

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    This is what I learnt in my RE lesson: Homosexuality in itself is not a sin, it is the sex part of it that is sinful. The Church teaches that for two people of the same gender to have sex is 'unnatural' as it detracts from the true meaning of sex. ' The sexual act must always take place exclusively within a marriage' (CCC 2390-91). Everyone is equal in the eyes of God and everyone is lived. However, the Church teaches that engaging in Homosexual activity is morally wrong because sex should be within marriage and be open to procreation. This is the Catholic Church's teaching. But Jesus didn't come to the perfect. And Pope Francis said something along those lines: If a gay person loves the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?"
     
  11. SillyGoose

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    Do Christians not believe in contraception then?
     
  12. guitar

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    If homosexuality were a sin it would have made the top 10 list. You're fine.
     
  13. Spotofpaint

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    I wish I had a link to this, because it's very long. But I don't so I apologize. I wrote an essay about this very issue a little while back. I am also Christian, and I feel very strongly about this particular subject. I was sick and tired of my so called 'fellow Christians' condemning me to hell. And every time I hear that nonsense now, I re-read this essay. Get a cup of tea though, because it's 14 pages long in word. I really hope it helps though, for a go through all of the Bible versus Christian's usually use to condemn LGBTQ people and debunk all of them.




    I want to obliterate hatred. I want the world to be a place where hatred no longer cripples us. I want everyone to experience equality, the way our forefathers intended us to when establishing our great country. My greatest wish is for every single human being, not only in America, but in the entire world, to experience love for one another.
    Everyone can agree on this first paragraph. Or at least, I should hope so. It shouldn’t matter what political party you’re in, which religion you belong to, or what race, or nationality, or sexual orientation. This first paragraph should be something that everyone on this earth desires in their heart. Whether or not it’s achievable doesn’t matter. What matters for the purpose of these writings, is that we all have common ground to start from. I think it’s safe to say we can start here. If you feel that you desire hatred over love, or oppression over equality, I strongly recommend you stop reading this immediately, and find something less productive to do with your time, because from here on out, I’ll be addressing some serious misconceptions that the American people have about one another.
    Right off the bat, I’d like to explain what these writings will be about, so no one is blindsided going into this. The purpose of these writings will be to inform anyone who would like to understand or expand their horizons, about the truth about gay Christians.
    You don’t need to be gay or a Christian to read this. In fact, I highly recommend that everyone read this. Because there is a sickness in America where people will take the things they hear others say, and then believe it as a fact whether it is true or not. Everyone is guilty of this. I am guilty of this. We hear someone we care about speak passionately about a subject and then assume that it has to be true, because someone we trust and love said it. Sadly, this is almost always the case when it comes to this subject.
    I’ve heard hundreds of people misquote the Bible over the past decade concerning gays. Hundreds more spout out nonsense that’s not even in the Bible, but they claim that it is. Others still seem to believe that God hates gays, or that being gay is a sin, or that gays are going to hell. I’ve heard Christians say this. Christians who are supposed to follow the teachings of Jesus. Christians, who above all else are supposed to love God first, and then their neighbor as themselves.
    The other end of the spectrum is no better. I’ve heard gays who’ve been abused savagely by Christians say that they’re atheist because of these things. Young gays in particular, our youth, our children who will grow up soon and be the men and women of our country have been so hurt, so ostracized by these things that they can’t even believe in God. They think that these hateful things are in the Bible. They think Christianity is about hating one another because their parents said it, or their preacher said it, or their peers in school said it. People who are supposed to love them unconditionally have used Christianity, a religion about love, to punish and ostracize and kill their loved ones.
    This is not an exaggeration. Gays have died because Christianity was used as an excuse to hate them and make them feel fearful or ashamed of themselves. Gays have been murdered by Christians. Gays have committed suicide because of Christians. And all of this hatred that’s flying around due to lack of knowledge, must stop. Now. Today.
    Gays and Christians alike have been so victimized by hatred, that neither side seems to even know what the truth is anymore, if we ever knew what it was to begin with.
    This reality that we live in grieves me so deeply that I have cried about it on more than one occasion. The stories I hear about families being torn apart, parents disowning their children, or beating them, or children rebelling or turning to drugs or other negative destructive outlets has nothing to do with someone who is or isn’t gay. The only thing that does this to us is hatred.
    And all of this pain, all of this hatred all stems from one place: misinformation and ignorance.
    It’s not that people are stupid (although some can be) it’s that most of us are simply uneducated about this subject. A lot of people I speak to seem to think that you can’t be a Christian if you’re gay, or that you can’t support gays if you’re a Christian. I will come out and say it right now: this way of thinking is wrong. This flies in the face of what the Bible actually teaches. It is the exact opposite of what Jesus meant for us, what He suffered and died for.

    I want to start everything off by saying what Christianity is actually about. Because a lot of people don’t seem to know. I’ve met dozens of Christians who don’t know their own religion. They go to a church with one preacher and that preacher is a human being. Humans, as we all know, aren’t perfect. If that preacher allows his imperfections in his heart to manifest themselves while he’s preaching, he could end up doing a lot of damage.
    I went to many churches before I settled on one when I moved to the area. And I’ve heard the devil speaking directly through the mouths of the preachers I listened to who were supposed to be delivering the word of God. Preachers speaking words of hatred or outright lying about what’s in the Bible.
    A Christian, by the way, should actually read the Bible. It’s a sad truth of things, but most Christians just don’t. And if a person doesn’t read the Bible, then they don’t know what’s in it. God is testing us all the time, and we’re constantly failing, colorfully, shamefully, by spouting out things that we never read ourselves.
    “My preacher said it, so it must be true.” No! You’re preacher is just a man. Like you, like me. He is human. He makes mistakes. It is good to go to church. It is wonderful to have community, to band together, and to help on social issues, like the poor, or working at shelters. But don’t you dare for a second forget that your preacher is a human being.
    Your preacher is not God. In fact, he is no closer to God than you or I. If you read your Bible, you will learn that one of the many reasons Jesus died for us is so that we could obtain The Holy Spirit who acts as a medium between us and God. You can speak to Him directly yourself using the Spirit! (Ephesians 1:17)
    Your preacher should be better educated than you, which is why he’s the preacher. He should have a better understanding of history, and the times of which the Bible was written. He should be able to interpret the Bible perhaps in a broader way than you can, seeing other viewpoints other than just your own. But never forget that he is still a man. If you want the truth yourself, you must read your Bible!
    It’s right there in front of you! In black and white! Ink on a page, in plain words that you can understand. All you have to do is pick it up! This is why God gave us the Bible in the first place!
    And so, onto my point: Christianity, above all else, is about God. And, by the way, “God is love.” Which means the entire point of our Bible is love. It’s the main theme. It’s the reason God gave it to us. So that we could have a weapon against hatred, against the wiles of the devil, who tries to twist our hearts into hating one another.
    There is never a reason to hate someone else. Never. Here, let me prove to you that the Bible is about Love:

    “God is Love.” (John 4:16)
    “Because He has set his love upon me.” (Psalm 91:14)
    “These things I command you, that you love one another. By this, all will know that you are my disciples.” (John 13: 34-35)
    “Nothing can separate us from the love of God.” (Romans 8:38)
    “Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor evil. Cling to good. Love one another.” (Romans 12: 9-10)
    “With all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bear with one another in Love” (Ephesians 4: 1a-3)
    “If there is any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the spirit, if any affection and mercy, fulfill my joy by being like-minded, having the same love, being of one accord.” (Philippians 2: 1-2)
    “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (The infamous John 3:16)
    “What if I could speak all languages of humans and of angels? If I did not love others, I would be nothing more than a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. What if I could prophesy and understand all secrets and all knowledge? And what if I had faith that moved mountains? I would be nothing, unless I loved others. What if I gave away all that I owned and let myself be burned alive? I would gain nothing, unless I loved others.
    Love is kind and patient, never jealous, boastful, proud, or rude. Love isn’t selfish or quick tempered. It doesn’t keep a record of wrongs that others do. Love rejoices in the truth, but not in evil. Love is always supportive, loyal, hopeful, and trusting. Love never fails!” (1st Corinthians 13:1-8)

    And then of course, my very favorite, because it is the trump card of all cards, words spoken directly by Jesus himself so that no one can ever argue against it, because Jesus is God, is Mark 12: 28-31.
    “Then one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, perceiving that He had answered them well, asked Him,
    “Which is the greatest commandment of all?”
    Jesus answered him.
    “The first of all commandments is this: Here, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment.
    And the second, like it, is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no other commandment greater than these.”

    There. The greatest commandment of all time. No Christian would dare argue against these direct words that Jesus spoke. He said so himself that there is no greater commandment than these. If someone tells you they disagree with this, then they are disagreeing with Jesus Himself and they are not a Christian no matter what they may claim.
    God is love. We are meant to love the very idea of love. And we’re to love everyone around us. Jesus even tells us to love our enemies! (Matthew 5:44.) The entire reason Jesus died for us is because we’re not perfect people, and with His sacrifice we can screw up over and over again and still find ourselves in God’s care. God loves us. No matter what. No matter how wicked a person may become.
    So, now that we’ve established that the Bible and the entire religion of Christianity is first about God and love, and second about loving each other, we can now come to the conclusion that if God is Love, then Hatred is the Devil. The opposite must be true.
    Can I get a holler from the math majors out there?
    And so, if Christianity is about God and love, and hatred and lies are of the Devil, then we can safely say that anyone who claims to be Christian, but practices hatred, is not following the faith as it should be.
    We all screw up, yes. We all get angry, or lose our tempers, or say things we don’t mean, or even hurt the people we love the most in our lives, but we can ask for forgiveness and try again the next day.
    That is not what I’m talking about here. I’m not talking about mistakes, or good Christians who mess up. I’m talking about real, dark, terrifying hatred. If a person who claims to be Christian is going around, purposefully and deliberately spreading hatred toward others, they are not Christians. They are Satanists wearing a disguise.
    I know that is a very heavy, scary thing to claim. But please remember what I just described above. I’m repeating myself because this is vitally important for the very lives of people everywhere. God is love. Therefore hatred is of the Devil. There’s making a mistake and having a temper, and then there’s truly evil, dark seeded, hatred. Big difference. If you run into someone who claims to be Christian, but is telling you that certain types of people (race, other religions, sexual orientation, it doesn’t matter) should be killed, or stoned or sent to hell or anything of the like, they are not Christians. Beware. Run away. These people are wrong and they are a disease to the true nature of God.
    I’m sure I’m going to be getting all sorts of troubles for this. But I no longer care. I’m tired of seeing good people suffer for no reason other than misinformation. I’m putting a stop to it. I’m going to try my very best to make sure everyone who reads this understands that love is the most important thing. Nothing else. Because don’t forget, God is love!

    Now that we have a basis of understanding, I’d like to move on to the other things that Christians may do or claim that are just wrong. Again, read your Bible and you can see for yourself.
    The reason condemning gays is wrong is for many other reasons other than the greatest commandment of all time, (although I should think that should be enough of a reason for anyone.) Here’s a good rule that any real Christian should try to uphold and abide in: we’re not supposed to judge one another.
    Here’s a whole lot of proof about what the Bible says about judging one another:

    “Judge not, lest ye be judged.” (Matthew 7:1) For those who don’t like the King James version, the Common English Bible translates this to: “Don’t judge, so that you won’t be judged by God.”
    “Anger is for fools.” (Ecclesiastes 7:9)
    “He who is without sin, let him cast the first stone.” (John 8:7)
    “Speak no evil.” (Ephesians 4:25-32)
    “So it will be at the end of the age, the angels will come forth, and separate the wicked from among the just.” (Matthew 13:49)
    “The righteous of faith speak in this way, ‘Do not say in your heart, who will ascend into heaven? (that is to bring Christ down from above) or, who will descend into the abyss?” (Romans 10:6-7)
    “For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son.” (John 5:22)
    “Do not be wise in your own opinion.” (Romans 12:16)
    “Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.” (Romans 12:12)

    So, quiz time: who judges all the people of the world at the end of ages? That’s right, Jesus and the angels. There are hundreds of more verses like these describing whose job it is to judge. We as mortal humans are not meant for this. It’s not our job. If we do judge one another, we’re stepping on Jesus’s toes. We’re not angels. You or I cannot possibly know what another person’s walk with God looks like. We can’t know what’s inside of that person. We cannot know if they are truly good or evil at heart.
    We like to think we know things. But in this case, we know nothing at all. A person’s walk with God is too personal and intimate for another to understand. Don’t assume things about one another. It’s irresponsible and reckless. All judging does is hurt one another.
    I myself know this to be true, because I’m terrible at upholding this part of my Christian walk. I’m constantly falling short and asking for forgiveness. I end up judging people in my heart all the time. Sometimes upon first glance! But this is wrong. I know it is wrong. And everyone who practices Christianity must get used to the fact that God does not want that for us. All this does is promote evil and pave a road for hatred. The Devil wins if we judge one another. It makes everyone hurt, or angry or miserable. Don’t do it. If you run into a Christian who’s doing it, gently remind them that this is Jesus’s job, not ours. If you run into someone who’s doing it on purpose to intentionally spreading hatred, they are not a Christian, run away from them.

    To all the gays out there who have been misled, or hurt, or confused or lied to about these things concerning Christianity, don’t let these people fool you any longer! Hatred, lies, deceit and judging are the complete opposite of Christianity! No one who claims to be Christian should do these things! Please, please, please! I beg of you, do not let these evil people who are not Christians fool you into thinking Christianity is wrong or bad! For surely, we can all agree that hatred and deceit are terrible things, but it has no place in God, or Jesus, or the church. It is a wonderful religion, based on love and faith and acceptance of others! That includes you too! God loves you as much as any straight person. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. He is fully open and accepting to you. After all, He’s the one that made you the way you are.
    Let me explain in further detail, why hating gays is a direct sin against God. Here it is, ready?
    God made gay people.
    He made them the same way He made animals, and trees, and heterosexual people. He made people who are black, white, Asian, or any other color. He made people who are born with down syndrome, or aspergers, or dyslexia. He made people who are short and tall. He made so many different kinds of people that we as humans can’t even imagine.
    Did you know He also made people with no distinct genitalia at all? They’re called hermaphrodites. These people are neither male nor female, or if you’d like to think of it another way, they’re both. And they make up an entire 1% of our population. That’s 1 out of 100 people! You probably have met many, but wouldn’t ever know it. (http://9e.devbio.com/article.php?id=266)
    Where do these people fall into this argument then? Are they straight? Are they gay? What are they? The secret to this argument is that no one seems to realize that God made us all the way we are purposefully. Good can often come out of something we perceive to be bad. What if a child being born with down syndrome was the key to saving someone else? What if the father used to be a greedy, work obsessed man, who thought nothing mattered but money until suddenly he had a special needs child to care for? Suddenly there’s something more important to do with his life.
    My point is, we can’t argue against God. You can try, but you’ll lose every time. Because He’s perfect. He knows what He’s doing. Therefore, hermaphrodites and gays and all other types of people exist because He wants them too. If God cared so much about who has a penis and who has a vagina the way us stupid humans do, He wouldn’t make people with both or with neither!
    Therefore, how can we judge one another based off of what kind of genitalia we have? We can’t. And it’s horrific if we do. Who cares about who has a penis? No one should. If someone does have a problem with someone being gay, instead of lashing out irrationally and spreading more hatred and fear, they should pray to God and ask God why He made gay people.
    Gay people can’t tell you why they’re gay. The same way you would have a real hard time explaining why you’re straight. Go ahead. Try it right now. Speak up, out loud and try to explain why you’re straight or gay.
    I’ll wait.



    What conclusion did you come to? Because God made you that way, if you’re Christian. If not, because you were born that way. You can’t choose what gender you’re attracted to. That idea has always and forever will be absurd. If the accusers of gay people would stop and think for a second, they would realize how absurd this really is. Can a straight person help it if they’re attracted to the opposite sex? If a straight man was suddenly faced with a very attractive, large breasted woman, he’d be attracted to her, even if he had impeccable self control and did not act on it. Those feelings would still be there.
    So how fair is it, for straight people to accuse gays of being able to “choose” or “change” the way they are? That’s like demanding that a straight man no longer like women. It would be the same thing as asking a straight man to date other men, something that disgusts him. It’d be like asking him to go marry another man and just get used to it because that’s the way society is. Smile! Grin and bear it! Pretend you’re not dying inside. And worst of all…you’re expected to like it.
    How sick and twisted is that?
    Would you ask such a thing of your child? Are you perhaps doing something similarly wicked to your child right now?

    I have some more Bible teachings that will help all of this, because as I said earlier on when I first started these writings, don’t take my word! I’m just a human being. I have opinions and I am not perfect. I want everyone to read their Bible. In its entirety. Front to back. For now, to get you started, here’s how God views the issue of discrimination:

    “But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him. The Word which God sent to the children of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ-He is Lord of all.” (Acts 10:35-36)
    “He who believes in me, as the scriptures have said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.” (John 7:38)
    “If you know that He is righteous, then you know that everyone who practices righteousness if born of Him.” (1st John 2:29)
    “They will put you out of the synagogues, and whoever kills you will think that they offer God a service, because they don’t know Me.” (John 16:23)
    “Therefore let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses” (That is the Old Testament.) (Acts 13:38-39)
    “God knows the heart, and acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.” (Acts 15:8-9) (Here Peter was discussing the Gentiles, who the Pharisees wanted to exclude from the church. You see! Discrimination has been going on for thousands of years!)
    “If God is for us, who can be against us?” (Romans 8:31)
    “Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation, old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” (2 Corinthians 5:17)
    “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:27-29)

    Seems to me like there’s a lot of evidence in the Bible saying that God doesn’t discriminate. None of these verses mention anything about race, or gender. The Bible doesn’t say “you’re saved if you believe in Jesus…except for you blacks or you gays!” There is no “except.” Christianity is for everyone who wants it. Anyone who believes in it. Anyone who loves God and wants to know God better than they currently do. There’s no “club” to get into. It’s not just for rich people, or people of a certain race. Why would there be a limit on sexual orientation?
    There isn’t. That’s the trick. That last line there from Galatians is one of my favorites, because it says right there in the Bible, written by Paul himself, that there is no longer a distinction between male and female as long as you are in Christ. I love it. God himself declares over and over again in the Bible that no one, not a single person is exempt from his love, from Christianity. Anyone can be with him. The only deciding factor is if you choose to do so.
    And how do you do that again?
    By choosing love over hate. Don’t ever forget, God is love. If you’re not of love, you’re not of God. Please don’t forget this important thing. People forgetting this is the very reason I have to write these words in the first place.

    So, now that we’ve made a fine foundation of real scriptures that are actually in the Bible that you can look up yourself and read for yourself (I highly recommend you do) we can move on to something I’ve been wanting to do for years.
    I’d like to take a close look at the five verses those hateful people out there try to use to make gay people feel like they can’t be Christians.
    I would like to reiterate, that there are only five.
    Five.
    Five versus in the entire Bible that are even remotely debatable (and they ARE debatable.)
    Out of the dozens of verses I wrote for you up above about love and acceptance and not judging one another, I’d say we’ve already won this battle. Considering I only picked my favorite verses and didn’t even write them all (because that’d be impossible, I’d have to write done the entire Bible, since the entire Bible is about God and love) we’ve already far outweighed the tiny bit of hatred that made it into the Bible by a mortal, imperfect, man’s hand.
    Let me start here, from my last sentence since this debate about the Bible has been bothering me for years too.
    Here it is, don’t get scared now:
    The Bible is not perfect.
    Shocked? I was when I first figured that out. But after doing years of research and reading many many books about the Bible and how it was made and who wrote which parts of it, I came to discover something: human beings wrote the Bible.
    Yes, it is God’s word. Yes, it is incredibly, impossibly important for all Christians (and non Christians) to read. It is and should be the basis, the staple of our religion. None of those things change because people wrote it all down.
    God doesn’t have hands in the physical sense that you or I would think. But in another way of looking at it, He has millions of hands. Our hands. He made us. And a lot of us dedicate our time and our lives to serving his will. God used human beings to write down the Bible.
    This is not a debatable fact. It’s something anyone with commonsense should be able to accept. The argument then comes into play when people get concerned about how much of it is from God and how much human words got into it.
    I used to be very concerned about this debate as well. How can I read something and take it for fact if I know a human being wrote it? I freaked out for a good long time. A few years. This is what drove me to learn more, and do so much research about it. (I highly recommend reading “Searching For The Original Bible” by the way.)
    But I soon came to an epiphany one day as I was digging my hands into yet another history book about it: God works through us. We are his instruments. He uses many, many different things in order to do his work on earth. Sometimes He’ll do outright miracles, things that seem like impossible magic to us. Other times, He’ll work subtly in the background, where no one will even notice He’s doing something good for us. Other times still, and the way we notice Him the most, is when He uses a human to deliver a message, or write something down, or speak to a crowd.
    This is how God chose to make the Bible. If He’d wanted to do it some other way, He would have. We cannot argue against the method He chose to create it. The fact remains that this was the decision He made and we must accept it. It was written by people.
    The Bible, being written by people, and having people in it as historic figures, automatically makes it imperfect. Because people are imperfect. That’s why Gods people wandered the desert for 40 years when it should have taken them two months at most to reach the other side. They kept sinning. They screwed up over and over again, and God had to keep them there until they figured it out.
    We’ve all had periods in our lives like this, where we’ve “wandered in the desert.” I was lost for years! I had no idea who I was, or what I should do or what my relationship with God was. And sometimes, I can still doubt. It’s normal. Every human does. But what we must realize is that the Bible is God’s design.
    That means the human imperfections that are in it? Those are meant to be there! I can’t tell you how many times I’ve run across a passage that I hated and that left a sour taste in my mouth. I am convinced that those passages are in there to make us think for ourselves and realize “Oh, I don’t agree with this. Why?”
    There are passages in the Bible that say slavery is not only ok, but that you should have slaves. (Leviticus 25:44-45.) When you read something like that you are supposed to be upset about it. Because it’s wrong.
    That didn’t stop it from getting into the Bible. Why? Because God wants it in there for one reason or another. The reason I believe He wants it in there is to make readers recoil in disgust and remember that you have a brain, common sense, and a heart to follow. We’re not meant to be completely blind in all the Bible tells us. That’s why God distinctly says He gave us the Holy Spirit, to help us make decisions for ourselves when we run across something debatable or something we don’t agree with. (Romans 5:18 The Holy Spirit justifies life.)
    So, if we all go into this argument understanding that the Bible is indeed the word of God and that it is exactly how He meant it to be, but that it was also written by man, then we can move on. Remember, God gave you a brain too. He wants us to use it in joint cooperation with The Holy Spirit to understand scripture. So, here we go.

    Leviticus 18:22 – “Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.”

    First of all, read the entire passage and the one after it please. It is a huge long list of what to do and what not to do. This is part of the old covenant that Jesus obliterated by dying on the cross for us. Jesus gave us a new set of rules to follow that renders all these old ones that noone in this day and age follow anymore, useless. (Romans 10: 4-9.) So that we don’t have to sacrifice animals on an altar in order to be forgiven of sins (Part of the same list in Leviticus) or exile someone for eating meat after the third day of the offering (also, same list.) It is also in this same list that God says we should own slaves (Again Leviticus 25:44-45.)
    The people who say gay people will go to hell using this list, should first prove themselves by describing how to make an alter, how to kill an animal on it, how to gut it, how exactly to burn it, how to eat it and when not to eat it, and these people should also believe in slavery and having slaves. All of this follows this condemnation of sleeping with another man. People who eat the wrong meat are sentenced to the same punishment, sometimes even worse punishment as a person who sleeps with another man.
    But probably, the most important thing about this passage is the start of it. There is a huge long list of who not to sleep with. It says to not sleep with your mother or your father. It says not to sleep with your cousin or your brother’s wife. It says not to sleep with animals or children.
    Christians must make an effort to actually read the entire passage before picking out a single line from a random location and using it to justify hatred toward a group of people. This passages real intent is to warn against sleeping with anyone other than your spouse! It goes on to list these other people to include everyone and everything that even breaths or blinks, including animals!
    The lesson here is “don’t sleep with anyone other than the person you’re married to.” It really doesn’t have anything to do with being gay in the first place. Again, please, please, please read your Bibles! Don’t take one liners pulled from it out of context. You need the entire story to understand what God is telling you.

    Next:
    1 Corinthians 6:9-10 – “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”

    This one kills me every time I see it, because it’s a mistranslation. The term “homosexual” here has been translated from the word malakoi in Greek, and it literally means “soft.” What Paul is condemning here has nothing to do with gay people. What he’s condemning is a softness in moral, or a softness in spirit. The Bible has said in other verses to not be “lukewarm.” (Revelations 3:16.) Jesus has said himself to be “salty.” (Matthew 5:13.) We are constantly warned against being lazy, or inactive, especially when it comes to our religion and our spiritual lives. We’re meant to take action against the wrongs we see and correct them.
    The reason this mistranslation is such a shame, is because there’s really no way for a regular Christian to know it’s been mistranslated unless they put in the effort to look it up or research it. (If you need a good reference visit this webpage.) (Would Jesus Discriminate? - No fems? No fairies? (1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and 1 Timothy 1:10))
    When I first read this in my New King James version I was horrified. But even this is not agreed on in all versions of the Bible.
    In the Common English Bible the translation is even worse! Malakoi has been changed into “Same-sex intercourse!” As if to say “Make no mistake, you’re going to hell if you’re gay!”
    In the American Standard version Malakoi has been translated into “effeminate.” Closer to the real meaning of the word, but it can still be misunderstood. At least this one is closer to “soft in moral” rather than sexual intercourse.
    The Contemporary English version says “behaves like a homosexual.” This one doesn’t actually condemn gays, but says you shouldn’t “act” like a gay. I’m not even sure what to make of this version, because how can you “act” gay?
    Can you tell someone is gay by looking at them? Can you tell by how they act or dress or speak? No. Of course not. I had a co-worker once, who disclosed to me that he had a buddy in the Marines who was as big as an ox and built like a brick wall who was gay. No one would have ever known. He was a man among men. As my coworker put it “he could snap your neck by looking at you.” So, what is it that the Bible is really condemning here? What is Paul saying? I already gave four different translations up above. If you go to Bible gateway and type in this passage you can look up dozens more. (www.biblegateway.com)
    We can’t agree on how to translate this word Malakoi. But “Softness in spirit” is certainly something that we don’t have a word for in English. This is where the confusion is coming from. It is a wretched wretched mistake to have translated it into such a way. For it’s not even correct.

    Here’s the third passage normally used against gays:
    Genesis 2:24 – “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.”

    I never understood how this is even used against gays. Yes, men and women fall in love and move in together. No one’s debating that. And no one can deny that when a man and a women come together, that’s how babies are made. Yes. God designed it that way. That’s how we reproduce. This passage doesn’t say anything against gays at all. All it is saying is that it’s good for a man and a woman to fall in love and be together in marriage. There’s nothing negative in this verse about anyone. It doesn’t say that gay people can’t fall in love. It doesn’t say gay people can’t have sex. It doesn’t say any of that.
    Considering how adamant God is at making his rules clear and well known (Like all the nuances on exactly how to build the tabernacle, complete with measurements in the book of Exodus) I think it’s pretty far stretched to think He meant this as a way of condemning gay people.
    If God wanted to condemn gay people, He’d come right out and say so. Let’s not put words in God’s mouth in places where He hasn’t said anything. I imagine that would be a very dangerous thing to do.

    Leviticus 20:13 – “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads.”

    Leviticus? Haven’t we already read this verse? Nope. This is another phrase in the same laundry list of things to do and not do. Again, read your Bibles! If this passage is read properly in its entirety it again becomes very clear that God is telling us not to cheat on our wives and husbands. He once more tells us to not sleep with a huge variety of people. A man sleeping with another man is totally unacceptable if you’re married, yes. I won’t go into greater detail because I already explained this from the last verse from Leviticus. It’s fairly straight forward, don’t cheat on your spouse! The penalty in Leviticus for cheating, with anyone other than your spouse, is death!
    If we followed through with laws from the Old Testament, I dare say, we’d lost 50% of the people in this country. Most of our celebrities for sure. We have a cheating epidemic going on here in America. So I find it fascinating that everyone’s so focused on using the Bible to preach hatred about gays, when the true meaning of the passage before them is about cheating! If everyone would just open their eyes and absorb what the true lesson of the passage is, maybe they’d be more worried for cheaters than gays. After all, there’s a lot more unfaithful people out there than gays.

    Last but not least, the one I always hear most of all is as follows:

    Romans 1:24-25 – “Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator – who is forever praised. Amen.”

    This passage goes on for a while. It can seem to a first time reader as if the entire chapter of Romans 1 is condemning gays. When I first read it, I was terrified. It can be quite striking, and it made my fingers and toes grow cold.
    But as with all texts, make sure to read the entire thing. Read the verses after it. Read all of Romans for that matter. If we are careful and take our time with scripture, instead of rushing through it with first impressions, we can understand what it was Paul was really getting at.
    Romans one starts with one sinful act that seems to lead into a train wreck of others. The first thing we must understand is that he’s talking about a group of people (the gentiles) who knew God and knew God’s desire for them and instead rejected it.
    These people “did not glorify God” and “were not thankful.” This is how it starts. Then their “hearts were darkened” and “professing to be wise they became fools.” After that they make golden idols of animals to worship. After these people abandon God and start worshiping animals, God “gave them up” to uncleanliness in the lusts of their hearts.”
    So, let’s put some people at ease before we continue. Have you made any golden idols lately? Have you worshipped anything other than God? Because this is the thing that starts this whole argument off. If you’re a faithful Christian and you remember to thank God and not worship idols, then you really don’t need to worry about the entire rest of this passage.
    Everything that happens after this point in the passage is due to the “lust” in their hearts.
    Being gay doesn’t automatically make you lustful. I know plenty of straight people who are complete pigs. Sleeping with multiple people, sleeping with someone before marriage, these are the things Paul is condemning.
    It goes on to describe men with men and women with women, and describes this as unnatural. Paul uses some very harsh terms like “vile” and other such things. And sleeping with multiple partners and doing it outside of marriage is indeed a big no-no in the Bible. You’re not supposed to do it. It’s all over the place in the New Testament.
    But unless you start off by abandoning God and giving into lust, this passage isn’t about you. There are hundreds of same sex couple out there who are monogamous and have never slept with anyone other than their spouse. And there’s plenty more straight couples who stray all the time.
    Paul is not talking about marriage here, he’s talking about debased sexual immorality. And the list even goes on to talk about murder, and evil mindedness. It talks about these people being unmerciful, deceitful, haters of God, violent and proud. It goes on forever, but I won’t continue. The point is, it is ridiculous to assume this is describing gay people. This is describing evil people who don’t believe in love, who don’t believe in God.
    So if you’re gay, and you believe in loving one another and finding a partner to share a monogamous relationship with, you’re fine!

    Which brings me to another point of mine: God wants people to get married before they have sex. This point is everywhere in the Bible. Everywhere. Open a page and it’s there. As such, shouldn’t Christians be fighting for same sex marriage? Gay couples are only allowed to marry in eight states out of fifty. (By the way, you can marry your first cousin in 18 states. And that’s forbidden in Leviticus too.) So if the bigger, much more prominent rule in the Bible is sex after marriage, then why not just let gay people get married?
    But this is beside my point. I don’t want to be drawn into the marriage debate, at least not right now. My main focus is still on gays and Christianity.
    I’m praying to God that by now, if you’ve made it this far without getting upset and stopping the read, that you understand that these five passages can easily be misinterpreted, or taken out of context. But more than that is that we shouldn’t need to dissect them to begin with! If we just look at the real teachings of Jesus and the big picture of what God wants for us, I’m sure we can all agree that He doesn’t want hatred and discrimination anywhere near us, no matter who you are.
    Again, remember, God is Love. And if God is love, than loving someone is never wrong. And if God is Love, then hatred is of the Devil. This is what we should be rejecting. We should be rejecting hatred and lies. The devil is the king of deception. (John 8:44.) And he would have us believe that God wants us to hate one another. The Devil would even have us use scripture against one another to promote evil! The Devil would love that, because it is only then that he wins.
    If you are Christian, I implore you to please pick up your Bible and read it. It’s full of goodness and light. So much so that to take one passage written by Paul (who also thought women shouldn’t pray without covering their head (Romans 11:13) and that men with long hair are dishonorable (Romans 11:14) seem ridiculous to consider in comparison with the big picture.
    And if you are gay, do not let people who call themselves Christians frighten you or feed you lies. God loves everyone! And He made you the way you are! Please let us not forget the hermaphrodites. For if God made so many people who have both sets of genitalia or neither, then He must also have a plan for them too. Which means the world isn’t divided into man and women, male and female. We’re so much bigger than that! Human beings are greater than their genitals! Anyone who thinks we should be ruled by what kind of privates we have should rethink their philosophies and strive for something much much grander in scale.
    As human beings, we should look at each other as human beings. We’re full of beauty and love and there is so much opportunity for every person out there to become someone wonderful. You are fearfully and wonderfully made! (Psalm 139.)
    It is my hope that after reading this I may have enlightened a few people on these horrific issues that plague us. And I pray, every day, that Christians can live up to their name! We’re supposed to be like Christ. And anyone who thinks Jesus wants us to hate others is dangerously mistaken and I’m afraid for those people and we should pray for those people, for they are lost.
    A lot of people like to use Genesis and the story of creation as an anti-gay scripture, but I would like to end this entire essay by using it in a different way:

    “God created humans to be like himself; He made men and women.” Genesis 1:27

    God made men and women in his own image. He made humans in his own image. I have always believed that this meant we resemble him inside, that we resemble his spirit and his heart. For if He meant we are like Him physically, then we probably wouldn’t have physical bodies at all. After all, God doesn’t have one, or, if you want to look at it differently, He has every type of body He’s ever made. He is all. He is everything. Yet He is none of it all at the same time. Why would God care so much about who has a penis and who doesn’t? It’s absurd to shrink Him down into such a tiny box.
    God is bigger than that. He is better than that. Why would He create gays and hermaphrodites if only to condemn them to hell without so much as giving them a choice about accepting Jesus or not? Doesn’t God want everyone to love Him? If so, it would make no sense for Him to make human beings in His image, whose only purpose is to burn in hell with the Devil.
    I don’t think that lowly of my God.
    Do you?

    I’d like to leave you with a few of my favorite verses that I didn’t get to use in argument, but I think are very important for all of us to know. Hopefully they will uplift you, give you a new kind of mindset, and prepare both gays and Christians alike to better understand God, and all of the wonderful things He wants for us.
    And remember: read your Bible! God is Love! God bless, Amen.

    “The Kingdome of God is within you.” (Luke 17:21)
    “For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light. For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth, finding out what is acceptable to the lord.” (Ephesians 5:8-10)
    “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry.” (1st Timothy 4: 1-3)
    “In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.” (John 16:33)
    “For I, the Lord your God, will hold your right hand, saying to you, ‘fear not, I will help you.’” (Isaiah 41:13)
    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him, nothing was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.” (John 1:1-5)
    “He who is of God, hears God’s words.” (John 8:47) (Those who are not of God, cannot comprehend.)
    “When my mother and my father forsake me, then the Lord will take care of me.” (Psalm 27:10)
    “Glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance, and perseverance, character, and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint.” (Romans 5:3-5)
    “Be strong and of good courage. Do not be afraid or dismayed for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go.” (Joshua 1:7-9)


    P.S.- Before I forget, there IS a great example of a strong, loving, gay relationship in teh Bible. The story of David and Johnathan is undoubtedly gay. And God clearly approves of them throughout the entire book of 1st Samuel. David even writes a psalm for Johnathan after he dies in which he says: and this is the exact line now: "Oh, how much I loved you! And your love for me was deep, deeper than the love of women!"

    2 Samuel 1:26
     
  14. idcidc

    Regular Member

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    I'm not religious at all because I wondered at a young age if I would know Christianity if no one taught me that,or any actual proof of god.my advice is to not get stressed about it,the replies above sounds good enough to not be worried.there's nothing to be ashamed of , you didn't choose to be homosexual and according to Christianity god made you that way.there will always be closeminded people that try to make a point out of anything.you are a wonderful person and perfectly fine.
     
  15. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

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    @Spotofpaint That was one ambitious chunk of text. Props.

    @OP Please don't listen to ignorance and live your own life happily.