Are masculine gays really homophobic?

If you're bisexual, it's perfectly understandable that you've fallen for a woman, not because you're in denial. It all depends on your preference for what you find attractive in men. If you find what people define masculine, then hell, I can't stop you. Neither can anyone else. It's not because you're in denial.

On the other part, if there is something else, someone is bound to come across and be able to answer that. I won't be of much help. Sorry.

 

You're not wrong, nor homophobic per se (although I'm curious to know why you find drag queens to be boring, I find them to be the most "alive" of the whole group).

You should look up "GayBros". Definition from Urban Dictionary
"A gay man who acts masculine and is interested in guy stuff like sports, video games, military issues, grilling, knives, gear, working out, gadgets, tech, etc.."

There's also a subReddit for this group. I know you're Bi, just saying that masculine gays are not a myth or a group of people in denial.

 

GayBros seems to be a perfect example of me. I'm bisexual(I think) but I'm more gay leaning. I really like to do all these masculine activities and am more attracted to masculine guys. I don't really care for 'queeny' gays or people who flaunt their sexuality like it is superior to straight people. I think the LGBTQ group is interesting, but I am scared to attend a meeting, for the same reasons that pgame said. I believe that people in those groups try and flaunt themselves, and it is wrong.

 

I just physically can't be attracted to effeminate gay guys. I have no idea why, and I have some very effeminate gay friends! But whenever a masculine gay guy comes along, i.e he has 90% male friends, acts like a guy, dresses like a guy, plays sports like a guy etc. I just start falling over myself. I don't consider myself effeminate, though I'm definitely not predominantly masculine. I have mainly female friends, listen to mainstream pop music, and have little to no interest in football, cars, and other hobbies and interests typical of guys.

 

I think the key-word here is acceptance. If we ask for acceptance and tolerance from people outside of the LGBT groups, then we ourselves also need to show the same acceptance and tolerance towards people different from ourselves within the LGBT group, whether masculine, "campy", feminine, butch, trans*, Bi, etc. People are different, they express themselves differently, and different things make different people happy. That`s just the way it is. We are who we are, and as long as we can say; well, that`s not me, but I`m fine with it being you, then we`re almost there.

I am a bit confused about what you`re actually asking, but if you are feeling that you somehow are judged for a negative attitude towards "queeniness/campiness", then maybe think about it for a few moments. Do you feel this because other people insinuate it, or does it come from inside? There`s nothing wrong with being a masculine guy who prefers other relatively masculine guys! However, expressing a negative attitude towards someone because you perceive them as "campy", then it`s crossing over to become a different matter. Maybe some people in your support group are campy, flaunting and feminine, but that`s who they are, and there`s nothing wrong with that if it makes them happy. Live and let live

Now, about posting pictures of "yummie" guys on the Support Group web page, I can see why you`re reacting. It`s supposed to be about the support, not about what`s hot. However, seen from a different angle, it might feel nice for some to be in an environment where they can go; "Dude, this guy is HOT!" and not have to hide it or feel ashamed about it. Where they can freely flaunt their flavor of choice, and share it with other people who`ll appreciate the same thing. Kind of like two only child kids who meet up in Kindergarten for the first time getting to play with another kid their age. Silly example, I know, blame it on a busy work day! I am not even sure if that example qualifies as an example, but what I am trying to say is that a lot of LGBT people have to censor themselves on a daily basis, possibly enhancing the importance of being able to flaunt it when they can, to put it out there where someone can see it, where they can show off that part of themselves and feel proud about it. It`s one thing I like about Drag Shows, the people participating always look so free and unrestrained, like they`ve somehow conquered the world, made it their stage and can show off every color they possibly can pull out from inside. It`s never made me uncomfortable, I just love the atmosphere and the joy that comes from people who unafraid and uncompromising steal the world like that.

And hell, they should! In some countries, LGBT people face death penalty, imprisonment or public whipping, so instead of focusing on the fact that some people flaunt their sexuality, or like to do shows where they gender-bend or do drag, we should be grateful that we have the freedom to do so! And keep in mind that most of the violence towards LGBT people happens to feminine men or trans*, which is unacceptable, because it means other people will hide their true colors due to fear of experiencing similar violence. Just that fact alone makes me want to go out on town dressed in a rainbow, not because I want to get beat up, but that some people think they have the right to physically assault someone because they "can see the gay" pisses me off.

Oh, and don`t take this long sharp post as criticism or something, it`s just a topic that can make me a bit overly engaged

 

Most gay/bi guys...have this nightmare called I don't want to be effeminate, and I don't want to be seen anywhere near them, and - I personally think- I don't want to be reminded about that side of my self that I pretend I don't have.

Gay or Straight or Bi, - most guys have an issue with femininity, I am not really sure why is that the case...but it really gets to me when the gay guys do it...because you should know what its like to be oppressed and told hey that is not how you are supposed to act, but you decide to give your self a double standard, and say that is not how gay guys should act, cause it makes me look bad. Or pretend its a moral virtue to say..hey I don't have problem with queenies, but they are embarrassing...

Plus yes I think you are uncomfortable with your sexuality...its kind of like how straight people say gay couples posting their pictures in facebook, is shuving gayness in their faces - they are just doing what they like...if you don't want to watch it don't watch it, but don't tell them hey don't 'flaunt it'...when straight couples have a gazillion likes on their 'look how cute I am with my hubby pictures'....

Its why most gay guys hate being figured out that they are gay without disclosing, cause it means that their straight acting isn't working..it really pos me why are we like this. Me included....

 

It's not that I try to NOT be effeminate, it's just what I naturally like better. I'm one of those "straight looking gay guys". I'd say that there are many qualities about me/stuff I like that would easily make someone question if I was something besides straight. I just choose to be subtle about it, much like how everyone doesn't like THAT GUY who talks about how many girls he banged, how much he loves women, and has a testosterone overload. If one wishes to know if I am gay, they can ask me, but I won't shove into someone's face. Much like how I wouldn't want heterosexuality shoved into my face as well.

 

I don't think you really have to worry too much about what they said. It's fine you don't have any interest in drag or whatever floats their boat. It doesn't sound like your cutting them up at all or doing anything rude, you just have different interests.

As for the scandalous pictures on the support site I completely agree with you too. To me something like that should be as inviting to everyone as possible. Seeing as not all gay guys or girls are into the same kinds of people, if its only pictures of chiseled model type guys in loin cloths I know I probably would shy away from the group.

Don't take what they said to heart and just be cool with who you are and what you like man.

 

Heh, no we aren't necessarily homophobic. My best friend (who's also a gay guy) and I both drive pickups, do collegiate sports, and buy all our clothes from walmart and goodwill. However, neither of us feel sexually insecure or threatened by anyone. For us, it's as much a part of who we are as being gay. In fact, whenever I see a guy that's clearly gay, I feel empathy, not insecurity or nervousness.

 

Rant Alert:

I think the issue with this is that we're trying to define ourselves outside of the "Heterosexual Norm" but the issue with defining a group is that one has to set a standard. The issue with setting a standard for a group that comes from various backgrounds is that everyone isn't going to fit that mold.

Solution: Just be you. No more excuses for why you're so catty towards other gay men, no excuses for why you act as if you walk on clouds and we're lucky enough to walk on dirt. Honestly, I'm tired of the excuses people come up with for acting like a**holes to each other. Especially when you know it's wrong.

One of the main reasons that I enjoy being a Non-Heterosexual, African-American Male is because my experiences taught me a lot about how the world works as well as how to be better than it. For instance, one of the best lessons I ever learned was that if I wanted to change the world, all I need to do is be me. And the effect would vary along the people that I came across. Some would like it, others would love it while quite a few wouldn't care for it or me at all. And that's life. It's going to suck at times no matter what you do but the defining moment will always be when you look into the mirror, after the storm passes, and ask yourself "Am I going to become one of "Them?" or Am I just going to be me?" :icon_bigg


Back onto the subject at hand, I personally don't think you're homophobic but if you feel as if you are think on it some more. Analyze and come to a clear understanding with yourself about the matter.

As for Masculine Gay Guys, I don't think they all are. Of course there some but prejudice comes in various shades, forms and factions so, meh. I've come across some very Masculine Straight Guys who I would've bet was going to kick my a** once they found out I wasn't straight but instead they embraced me as one of the guys........who considers other guys to be quite sexy. :lol:

 

Some of the things you mentioned have been the main reason I've never gone to any LGBTQ groups. Now, I wouldn't say I'm really "masculine," but I'd say I'm even further from being "effeminate," and I'm really only interested in people who are either like me (kind of nerdy, into computers and games such) or more "masculine" (but still shares common interests). I've never intended to sound judgmental of LGBTQ groups (in fact, I think they're great and am still thinking about going to one), but I've just never gone because I always got the impression that most of the people there weren't my "type," and things you said seem to reinforce that thought.

What I would really hope to get from a support group would be advice for social situations when trying to get into a long-term relationship. I have no idea how to approach it, especially when it comes to sexuality, considering it's not really something I see people just dive into talking about on a whim.

I think I'm derailing a bit here, so back on topic, no, you don't strike me as homophobic. It sounds like you just didn't find what you were looking for in that group. It does make me wonder the same thing about me, though. Am I making too many assumptions? Am I being judgmental? I don't really know. This post kind of reminded me that I still have a lot to figure out.

 

First, me. I'm usually considered fairly masculine. I'm tall, I have a deep voice, I listen to rock music, I wear cheap T-shirts and jeans 24/7, and hold season tickets to a contact sport. And yes, I was once homophobic. Not because I'm masculine - my personality is no more an act than anyone else's. but because of my insistence of drawing a line between "those other gays" and myself. I continually found reasons to distance myself from them, usually with the undercurrent of worry that other people would lump me in with them. "No, I may be gay but I'm not like THEM." I half-deluded myself that I wasn't gay (you know, like THEM) - I was just a straight guy who dug other guys. In short, I wasn't just "different" from them - I was somehow "better" from them, as well.

Now, if you try to distance yourself from a group, for fear of being lumped in with them, and because you think they're better than them...well, that's pretty much prejudice in a nutshell. And what I eventually learned was that any anti-masculine-gay prejudice coming from the "mainstream gays" was attributed completely to this mindset. The idea that I was somehow better than they were. And, not surprisingly, they didn't quite agree with that assessment. Their thought was just "he's just a fag like the rest of us" - not only insisting on my inclusion in the group, but probably secretly feeling pleased at my discomfort at the idea.

But here's the thing. I got over it. I befriended plenty of more effeminate gay guys, and got to know some drag queens, and all that. I accepted them on their terms. And they accepted me on mine. I accepted that they liked to shop and listen to music that I didn't. Their hobbies weren't "boring" - they just weren't my hobbies. Their music doesn't "suck" - it just isn't what I choose to listen to. And when I accepted that, they accepted me. They didn't insist I was secretly a Kylie Minogue fan, or had an inner drag queen waiting to burst forth. I just offered to play air guitar at their next drag show, and everyone was happy.

Lex

 

No, I am friends with many people who do drag and whatever. I don't "choose" to be masculine or whatever (in terms of my clothing style, music choice, etc.), I just LIKE it better. That's not to say that whatever one chooses to do, such as drag or use nail polish, is wrong. Hell no! If that's what makes them happy, then so be it. I just happen to have different tastes, and there's nothing wrong with that. So no, I am not homophobic, despite being a masculine gay guy.

 

What is masculine, anyway?

 

I do think internalized homophobia motivates a lot of self-proclaimed "masculine" gays. Around here, where the culture is very macho and stuff, the gay apps are filled with people saying "masc4masc", "no femmes", "if you're fabulous, we won't get along", and even "no homo" (yeah, right). Personally I find these people all ridiculous and insecure, so my profile is the only one that says 'no mascs' instead.

 

Take a stroll around 4chan (preferably a more gay-dominated board). Over there, they basically drool all other masculine guys, and anyone more effeminate gets comments like "You're a beta faggot" and such. My point is, the hatred goes both ways.

 

yeah, model guys are kinda gross actually

 

I'm not quite sure what the point of this thread is. Not in the sense that it doesn't deserve to be here, rather I don't feel like most of the poster really know what the post about. The beginning post seemed a bit ambiguous and ElPana keeps reiterating that he does not feel what most post are insinuating. :l

Regardless, I guess I'll give a go at it.

In regards to the club, its only that, a club. Its not a sacred union that you will have to sign yourself into. Go to a meeting. Go talk to the people. Go give it a chance. If you are simply worried about not having much in common with the people, and not because you are put off by "more feminine men or butch women", then trying things out shouldn't be a problem. Either you're going to like it or you're not. There is no use in not trying.

In regards to your questions about yourself personally.

Let me ask a question. Do you find that you get along with every masculine male? What about even most? I am positive the answer is no, seeing as most of the people we meet on a day to day basis aren't usually completely compatible; however, how do you know? How do you find out if someone is compatible with you as a friend or whatever? You meet them. You speak to them. You find out.

No, you aren't prejudice against Feminine men if you find that you more commonly get along with masculine men. However, regardless of the type of expression the individuals around you exhibit, you will still have to get to know them before you can know that you will get along with them. If you assume that you wont get along well with feminine man, you aren't being realistic by assuming that you wouldn't be compatible with them. You aren't simply choosing not to inquire into them as a possible friend or acquaintance as much as you would had they have been masculine.

Which truthfully is a bit prejudice. Not to shame you or say that your a horrible person. Only that, theoretically, in that sense, you aren't being entirely equal in effort.

 

Well, let's see here

Re not having anything in common with some kinds of people - This issue seems to come up fairly regularly here and consistently falls along the lines of 'it's not that I have anything against femm/butch/flamboyant gays it's just that I have nothing in common with them.' This given as a reason why the poster doesn't visit the GSA or LGBT center on campus or whatever. Or talk to any of these people apparently.

Which raises the question: If you (the generic you, not you the OP in particular) never talk to a particular group of people how can you know whether or not you have anything in common with them? And what does 'in common' mean here anyway? Is it really necessary (or desirable) to only surround oneself with what amount to clones of oneself?

For my part, if I only interacted with people who shared all my interests I'd have no friends at all (then again, some of my interests are somewhat esoteric). Everyone is a bit different and it is quite possible to have fun (and learn new ways to have fun) from people who are different from you. Beyond that, as you proceed through life, it is very likely you will eventually find yourself forced to be around people different from you. So best to get some practice in early.

Re the sexy pics on the website - Hmm. On at least one occasion I've seen similar pics posted here on EC. No one seemed to be complaining that I saw. And some of the discussions here are pretty explicit. Obviously, I haven't seen the specific pics in question here, so maybe they go even further, but I guess I'd have to agree with the earlier poster who suggested that being able to be in a place where its OK to express attraction to the same sex (and post pics showing just what you find attractive) can also be part of being supportive.

Re masculine guys being homophobic - To me this sounds like the group may have (unfortunately) taken on a bit of a bunker mentality as well as some bitterness toward a segment of their own population (the masc. segment in this case). That is unfortunate but, given the amount of crap that fem/flamboyant gays have to put up with, including from their own tribe (including on EC a fair bit of the time btw) I can't say as I can work up much energy to blame them.

And before the chorus starts up about how you (again generic you, not singling anyone out) never are unsupportive of fem/flamboyant/campy gays and would never want to be seen that way (cause that thread had gone around the mulberry bush a couple times here too), I would point out that every remark about fem guys or 'out and proud' gays being irritating, or flamboyant guys not being people anyone has anything in common with, etc. does send a message. Not a terribly supportive message either. And in all likelihood at least some percentage of the folks on EC (maybe even some of the folks listed in any given members 'friends' list) probably fall into that category and may even be 'in the closet' about their true selves because they don't feel supported re that part of themselves here. They may still find EC better than nothing or overall very supportive. But not fully. Just a notion.

Just for the record (since this seems to have worked into the thread), I'm 5'11", weigh in between 215 and 220, am quite muscular in a stocky-muscular sort of way and am pretty strong (As in can toss average size guys around if I've a mind to). I also used to do martial arts and once upon a time knew about half a dozen ways to kill people with my bare hands (don't know if it's like riding a bicycle). I dress functionally to slobby, like rock and metal, and think a good movie is one with lots of special effects and explosions. I've helped feed, raise, and butcher things I later had for dinner. I'm also totally uninterested in sports, can enjoy a good musical or dramatic film, and am moderately helpless when it comes to cars, tools, and that sort of thing.

I list all this because I frankly don't know (and mostly don't care) where I fall on the 'masculine/feminine scale' and so don't feel I can just say I'm one or the other. So you decide if you care to. As a result of the whole not caring much thing, I also am not bothered by fem or flamboyant people at least as they are behaving naturally for them and not forcing themselves to behave that way (have had housemates who were fairly fem (and one who was very fem/campy and seemed to be forcing it, to the point that he irritated the other fem housemates). On one occasion had a housemate who regularly dressed in women's clothing and makeup, although I don't know if he was trans or just cross-dressed for fun - our paths didn't cross much and he moved out shortly after I moved in), butch people, or whatever. I haven't been around a trans person that I'm aware of, but figure they either wouldn't bother me at all or that I might feel some initial minor emotional discomfort at being exposed to something new but would expect that to go away once I got used to them (in the meantime it's a simple intellectual exercise to suppress that discomfort at something new until it goes away).

As far as being attracted to people, I probably lean toward more masculine men but have dated and had a very good relationship with a guy who was somewhat campy. Basically if I felt attraction toward a guy I felt attraction toward a guy and I didn't spend a lot of time worrying about whether he was 'manly enough' for me to like him.

To get back to the posters question (as I'm interpreting it anyway): I don't think you're homophobic for being masculine or liking masculine stuff or guys or whatever. Nor do I have any problem with you being bi (frankly don't understand the whole hate on bisexuals thing anyway). If the group is posting stuff that is negative about bisexuals or masculine guys then I can understand why you would be reluctant to have much to do with them. That said, it's not clear from your post how much their discussion lists or website are representative of the group any more than a few threads or posts on EC are representative of the entire forum. So it might be good to actually meet them in person and see what they are like. Assuming here that none of what you described was from in person discussions with a wide cross-section of the group or the like.

My 2c worth,

Todd