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Genderqueer rights/dress codes

Discussion in 'General Support and Advice' started by loveline, Jun 3, 2013.

  1. loveline

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    I am a brand new member. I made my first post in the welcome section but I think the main subject of my post is better suited for this section. So I apologize for my mistake (I am new) and I will copy and paste it here.

    I found this site as I was searching for a place on the internet where non-conforming gender/genderqueer could communicate and get advice. I have never met another person like myself who identifies as pangender. It took me until my early twenties to figure out why I could never seem to find the place where where I "fit". I left a small town at 19 and moved to the big city (Toronto, Ontario). Last summer I had to leave the city and move back to my small town home. This was a very hard experience because not only was I leaving behind a city that felt like home and some good friends, it felt like I also had to leave myself behind. Nobody was going to get me here. I couldn't dress androgynous or wear make up or have my hair long. I put that part of myself away in a box for awhile.

    That grew tired after a couple of months and I started to feel very restless and depressed. I decided I had come too far to try and start "blending in" now, so I started testing the waters. Going out in public alone can still be an uncomfortable experience sometimes (and I have been called a faggot) but I refuse to stop pushing forward. I live in a small town with a lot of small minds but I will be me no matter what.

    Besides stares and comments, the biggest issue I've encountered so far is from a local establishment. There is only one bar with a dance floor in this town so that doesn't leave much options for someone who likes a good night out of dancing once in awhile. Well this bar has a dress code: "Come on out in whatever you choose but Guys keep those Tank Tops at home...." Dot dot dots and all. This was something I was unaware of the first time I visited this place. I didn't coat check my blazer; it was early December and really cold, but as you dance you get hot, so I took it off. Not long after I was pulled aside by a bouncer and told I had to put my blazer back on because the dress code said I couldn't wear a sleeveless shirt. This struck me as very odd. I found an employee who appeared to be of some authority and asked her about this apparent dress code rule, which she confirmed. She explained that the rule was in place because the guys would end up in ratty wife beaters which isn't a form of dress they want to be associated with. I understood. However, I tried to explain how uncomfortable this made me because I am a gender non-conforming person and she was lumping me in with this group of "guys". She seemed to sympathize but ultimately this didn't seem to matter much. Because I appear to be a guy and that is the rule the owner says a guy must follow her hands were tied. So to avoid a scene I obliged to keep my blazer on and tried to enjoy the rest of my night. But I suggested she speak to the owner about this issue.

    I attended this bar again in mid-April. I dreaded the getting ready process (which is usually the best part, am I right?). I knew what I wanted to wear, and I knew I wasn't "allowed" to wear it. I was starting to get really fed up with worrying about this - the the fact that I even had to worry this. It almost started to feel like a violation of my human rights. Because the average person in society looks at me and sees a boy in girls clothing, suddenly, that is being made my problem? Do I have to stand for this? I took to Facebook to vent in hopes of finding an answer. There was a surprising out pour of support, and a whole discussion on the issue ensued. I felt justified in challenging this bars "rule", but I still felt fearful. So I covered up with an American Apparel wet-look zip up. After a few drinks and when the dance floor started heating up I decided to test my luck. I let the zip up drop to my elbows for a few minutes. Okay, all clear. Then to my wrists. Then I just took it off, and it stayed off until they shut the place down for the night. Not a word from anyone about my "violation" of the dress code.

    Well last Saturday a friend and I wanted to go dancing. I thought this issue was unspokenly resolved, well let me re-phrase that, I had faith that it was resolved. I went there with my faith in tow and I was instantly refused admission into the the bar at the door. There was no reasoning with the door guy, so I asked to speak to the owner. I was told he had gone home to "shower", so I asked to speak to whomever was in charge at the moment. I was told it would be an hour before the manager would have time to speak to me (this was likely a ploy to try and discourage me from "bothering" anybody with my silly issue). I agreed I would wait as long as I had to. Not more than 10 minutes later, the manager appeared to speak to me. I knew right off the bat that there was likely no chance that anything I said would get me into that bar, but I had a lot I needed to say anyway. It was a long shot that a conversation about non-gender conformity and not identifying myself as any one gender was going to get through to this guy. But it was his complete failure to even try to understand, really listen, or empathize that was the truly upsetting part. In fact, I would say he was absolutely intolerant. Basically, he didn't give a shit about how I feel or live my life, but to him I appear to be a guy so I can't come in wearing a tank top (the heels and make up were okay though?). He kept telling me I was unnecessarily turning this into a matter of sexual orientation discrimination. I don't know if he couldn't or if he just refused to grasp the concept of what I was saying. It was never about my orientation, it is about my gender.
    I was just told repeatedly that people of the male gender must wear sleeves according to dress code. I'm not stupid, that I understood after being told once. But when I repeatedly tell someone that they are making me feel uncomfortable by forcing me into a category where I don't belong and they blatantly ignore it each time, is that not wrong? You are completely disrespecting me as a person. And then, to finally tell me that I am shoving my "opinions down your throat"? That makes it quite clear that you are hearing what I am saying and you just disagree and therefore I must be wrong and need to shut up. I certainly know who I am and how I feel better than you do so what I am hearing is that I am not allowed in your bar. Especially when it comes down to you saying that by law you have the right to refuse entry to whomever you want without explanation.
    Cherry on top: the bystander who kept chirping in on the conversation I was having with the manager (in support of the manager's side, of course) high-fiving the manager as I finally walked away in defeat.

    I know in my heart of hearts that what's happening here isn't right and isn't fair. I care too much about myself to let myself be treated like this. I, and others like me in the transgender/gender non-conforming community, must have rights. The Toronto school system must follow guidelines to accommodate students who identify this way, so why should businesses who cater to a vast public not have to? We don't live in a perfect society but we don't live in one where they still have "Whites Only" signs in shop windows and intolerance of that nature. How is this any different?

    I'm prepared to go through life misunderstood by the masses. I'm prepared for all the uncomfortable and awkward moments ahead: deciding which public washroom to go in or being reminded by a salesperson that these shoes are womens sizes. I'll deal with the stares, comments, and the like. If that's the price I have to pay to live my life as the person I truly am then so be it. What I can't deal with is being told I have to be something that I am not. I shouldn't have to. I could easily run back to Toronto and leave this shit behind. The option has been placed in front of me and I am this close to grabbing it. But I think something needs to change in this town and I can't go anywhere until I make sure that happens. For the next genderqueer kid, may they hopefully feel at home here.

    I can't believe that this is the end and I have to accept and swallow this injustice. Legally, I and those like me must have rights. We do, don't we? I desperately need some help with this matter. There has to be some action I can take.
     
  2. curlycats

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    ....this part in particular was borderline tear jerker. i really do feel for you....

    i read your entire post and i wish to thank you for sharing your story, but when it comes to advice as to what you can actually do to fight for your rights.... i'm afraid i am not the least bit knowledgeable enough to help you with that. it may be best if you seek legal advice from a professional.

    obviously what you have been met with is discrimination, but i doubt there is anything that you alone can do. you will need to get the law on your side in order to pose a real threat to the bar and their rules.

    i admire you for wanting to stay where you are and fight for the rights of you and others like you, but pretty please be careful. i really don't want anything to happen to you... as horrible as it is, violence against trans*/gender variant people is not that uncommon.... so please stay safe.

    i sincerely wish you the best.
     
  3. Boyfriend

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    Well, this might sound really harsh, but I understand the manager. If you look like a guy to him, the rule stands. There is no rule about high heels or whatever so I don´t know why you mention them at all.
    Any place can have a dresscode as they wish it, even if it feels like discrimination.

    I´m sure there are pleny of guys that feel it is ridiculous too, but if you want to go there, you just dress something else. It´s not hard and way easier than trying to have the rule changed or trying to convince people things are not fair and to be honest. It is not about you as a person or your life style or whatever. It is about appearance.
    It´s different from "whites only" cause you can´t change the color of the skin. It doesn´t say "pangenders not welcome" or anything does it?
    It´s about clothing, which you can EASILY change for the nights you want to be there if you find it important to be there.

    You probably make a big deal out of it because recognision is important to you. I get that. But you can´t make every single person understand what you are about.
    What is it you want from them exactly?
    You really want people to make an exception for you based on the fact that you not relate to looking like a guy? How do you think others feel if they see you in a tanktop and they can´t use one? You are not afraid they will single you out and harress you? Or do you love to be the centre of that kind of attention just because you like to fight for a cause?
     
  4. photoguy93

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    I have to agree. I hate to start "shit" by saying this...but, were you, as "pan gendered," discriminated against? From your story, it seems that you were labeled as a boy and that's that. Personally, I think they just wanted you to follow the rules.

    Again, I'm not saying what they did was right. However, it's their business. Often, and this is not meant harshly, we get wrapped up in our own issues and we neglect to look at the whole story.

    I'm just saying all of this because I'm a third party and I'm trying to help you see that I really doubt there were any hard feelings.
     
  5. Theodora

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    It must be awful having to move somewhere where you have to go back to hiding part of yourself. :frowning2:

    Legally though, private businesses can set arbitrary dress codes and kick people out. What's disgusting is the way people treat gender variance, and I think the main problem you're having here is the way they kept throwing "you're a boy" in your face. Personally I would take that opportunity to go back to Toronto and not bother dealing with it anymore. It might feel like letting the small town win, but I think the best thing we can do for ourselves is find a place we can actually fit in and be happy without a constant fight.

    And to the people above who said "you look like a guy, follow the rules" ... you're totally missing the point and I hope you learn how to talk to trans people.
     
  6. Boyfriend

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    I´m just saying that you can´t get your point across at such a place.
    They rule at their own buisness. It doesn´t matter from which point of view.

    Learn to talk to transpeople? You don´t want to get discriminated, but you want special treatment? How does that work? You are equal to me.

    Look, my boyfriend looks very feminine. To the point that he gets kicked out public restrooms sometimes. He doesn´t go to the manager telling him that he is really a guy and doesn´t like to be seen as a lady. He just goes to the ladies that time. The urge is more important. If you get my drift.

    You want to have a good time, or you want to fight over the fact that someone sees you as a guy. I know what I would pick... but it´s your life! You have to do what you are comfortable with!!!
    Power to you!

    I learn through discussion and I will take everything that is said and will be said in consideration to form an(other?) opinion, but for now, I have this one.

    Ofcourse it is nicer if you get a thread full of "yes, they´ve treated you wrong and it´s all shit and what". After all we are here to support people, but you will get the odd response from people that understand the other side too.
    We are free to express our opinions right? One can do with it what you like. I´m not telling anyone what to do....
     
  7. justjade

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    Loveline,

    I'm going to have to agree with you. Unfortunately, I have no information on how to fight for your rights. I have the similar issues to yours ever now and again. At work one night, I was told my the substitute manager that I wasn't allowed to wear cargo shorts and had to wear capris because I'm "a girl". I didn't even bother explaining myself to her because, for one, I'm probably never going to work with her again, and for another, she just gave off this aura that she was a straight-up bitch, in which case any explanation I gave would fall on deaf ears. However, I am very uncomfortable being lumped with girls, so I face some very aggravating dysphoria at times. But no matter what happens, I'm right there with you. I understand your plight completely. I want the right to be who I want, too. And let me tell you, the customer is always right. Managers have to (or are supposed to, anyway) be really careful with how they treat customers because their behavior reflects on their establishment. You were definitely treated badly.

    At this point, I'm going to have to let what I've learned in my life coaching classes come out. This is your opportunity to turn this around into something positive. Reflect on your magnificence. You are a beautiful, unique human being, and you have a wonderful soul. You don't owe anyone in this world a damn thing that gives them the right to tell you who you are or how you should dress. Just be happy with who you are. There are no "extra people" in this world. Every one of us is a gift to the world around us. Your courage and self-exporation are admirable. Don't let anyone tell you that you can't be who you are.

    I wish you the best of luck.

    ~Jade (*hug*)
     
  8. loveline

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    Theodora, curlycats, and Jade: I so greatly appreciate the words of encouragement and kindness. It appears you all have a sense of relation to the struggles I face, which is something I have never come across before. My friends are great and try to understand but I never really feel like they actually "get" it. It's really surreal to finally hear "I feel your pain" or "I understand", rather than "he's just mad because you're prettier than his girlfriend" (though, that one is good for a laugh sometimes).

    Boyfriend and photoguy: I also appreciate the opinions from another perspective. Though parts of them did make me feel stupid or like I over-reacted, the fact is I wasn't looking for a thread of replies all agreeing with me. I do feel wronged, and before I decided whether or not to take anything further I wanted to get some outsider feedback. It's not the act so much as it was the way I was handled. The dress code was the cause, and the effect has left me feeling totally undermined and my feelings just completely disregarded. I put myself out there. I poured my heart out to a complete stranger by actually attempting to explain a very personal issue to him, and I was met with a complete unwillingness to understand and a total lack of empathy. I repeatedly told him he was making me feel uncomfortable by how he was referring to me, and he just continued. At my job, I would never treat a customer that way. I was wrong in his eyes before I even had a chance to make my case.
    An exception? Yeah, in all honesty, that would be nice. I doubt any guy who has a problem with my bare arms would be willing to tell the management that he too does not identify with the male gender. But that's likely the frustration in me talking. It's hard not feel like my life has ceased progression and has now started going backwards. Realistically, I know I can't change or control what other people see. But like you said, Boyfriend, you can't change the colour of your skin, and I think what you failed to see is I can't change what gender (not sex) I was born. I can pretend because that would be EASIER, just like I could easily shut up and put on sleeves. I can pretend for the approval purposes of others, but it would never be true. Not to myself, and not to them.
    I think where my anger comes from most is the fact that I've had the guts to say "But, I'm not a guy" and I keep getting the response "No, you are a guy!". How you see me or not, as a human should we not have some sort of basic respect for the values and beliefs of others? How would a, lets say, Russian person feel about being told by a complete stranger that they aren't Russian? How would a gay person feel if they expressed their natural born identity to someone and they dismissed it instantly as just an "opinion"? Do you feel that your self-identity is nothing more than an opinion you came up with one day?
     
  9. Boyfriend

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    I know it´s horrid for you. I know you want to be seen for what you are. You have every right.

    It´s not like people willingly put you on one side or the other, they have no choice, since we don´t recognise a third gender like in India, or any other exeptions to the known genders, so people tend to go with what you look most like to them, ever thought about that?

    And yes it sucks if you actually TELL someone you are not a guy and they tell you that you are.

    And I´m sure in cities like Toronto or New york it´s totally different. (My boyfriend lived in both and said so anyway).
    I live in a small town and can´t even be out, yeah, cause they are homophobic. I know what it can be like to be denied your true you.

    But in this specific situation it is about a something that is easy to resolve, that´s all I say. I don´t say you need to have to lose yourself or whatever. But everybody, really EVERYBODY will get to situations in life where they will have to do something that goes against their believes or feelings and feels "not right". Life sucks. We can´t always have it our own way.

    But hey, I´m 18 and LEARNING, yeah, I need people to express themself in the way that you do, I appreciate it, but I also look upon it from the outside, which gives me a different perspective.
    I won´t ever talk like your friends or people that are alike you. Don´t expect that from me.

    If you really want to get something done, and focus your anger to something useful, maybe you should work on an idea how to get a third or another gender in our laws and day to day life. Like they have in India...
     
    #9 Boyfriend, Jun 5, 2013
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2013
  10. girlunwound

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    I'm kind of baffled by one thing, and that is this: Who made up the rule that to look female you have to wear a sleeveless shirt, cuz that's definitely a new one to me. I get that the dance floor can get hot, but to me it almost seems like you're looking to cause a stir by wearing clothing you knew would be a problem.

    I understand the whole gender non-conforming thing, though I come at it from a totally different perspective. Having had a few life experiences including business ownership, I also understand the business owner's perspective on it too. They are trying to stay away from an image that likely gave them problems in the past and allowing you to break the rule is going to set a precedent. It doesn't matter that you're gender-non-conforming, because even though that fact consumes most of your thoughts right now, most of the world hasn't a clue about it and quite frankly doesn't care. That might sound harsh, but it's the truth. Not everyone is going to understand you, and I think you're going to have to accept that at this point in history. You can't change the world overnight.

    My advice to you (since you asked, because I don't usually offer unsolicited advice) would be to find another establishment, even if it means going to another town. Since you disagree with their rules and feel they won't listen to you, why give them your business?

    I agree with one thing Theodora said, and that is that a small town where people don't get you may be too difficult a thing for you to handle right now. I'm guessing you moved back with friends or family. Maybe I'm wrong and I don't want to assume anything, but if I'm correct, my further advice would be to get your shit together now and secure a decent job/career before trying to make waves as a gender-non-conforming person. This would also allow you to move back to the city on your own where you are more comfortable being you. This of course, assumes that my assumption is correct. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    I'm not trying to come across harsh. I am to a degree very sympathetic to your cause, but I also know that I live in a world where things don't always work the way I want them to and I do what I have to do to make the best of it for myself.
     
  11. loveline

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    Boyfriend, you totally just touched on the whole point I posted this thread in the first place.
    I see now that I wrote it when I was still angry, when the wound was fresh, and that I may not have come off the right way. I really do appreciate EVERYONE'S feedback, it's helped me see this situation from a bigger perspective. I was taking it all so personally, because I opened myself up to these strangers at this small town bar and was still shut down. That hurt. It felt like my identity was under attack and I got defensive, I do see that now.
    However, as I started off saying, my goal when posting this was to find out if transgender and genderqueer people (like myself) have any rights. I am completely clueless when it comes to that matter and I can't seem to find any information that makes it any clearer to me. I thought maybe someone out there could help me. Does someone at a public establishment have the right to disregard my qender identity? Does someone have the right to tell me I can't go into the girls washroom? What are my rights when encountered with these situations? That was my real question here. Unfortunately it got muddled in the long, venting story I wrote.
     
  12. girlunwound

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    I'm glad that you see this. And I understand why it can be upsetting.


    That all depends on where you live. There are places where there are laws in place to protect trans people from discrimination and where the people in general are more trans aware and friendly. Then there are places, like your small town, where there is little to no protection and acting or looking out of the ordinary is likely to get you kicked out and/or beat up.
     
  13. loveline

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    girlunwound, you made a lot of valid points and helped me see some "harsh" realities. I just felt I needed to address the first comment you made. First of all, I look feminine not matter what. I always have and have often been mistaken for a female. It's been that way my whole life, I don't have to try. It's hard to explain, but it was never about the shirt and whether it had sleeves or not, I enever needed a sleeveless shirt to feel feminine. It was about being told the reason why I couldn't wear the shirt.
    Then the reason it got worse and this issue grew to upset me so much is more so the way I was handled by the manager. His refusal to even empathize with how being lumped in with the "men" made me feel did start to get me angry, and I suppose my apparent "excuse" to bend the rules pissed him off aswell. He was aggressive and there was just no reasoning with him; which took me aback because I was still the customer and he was still a representation of this establishment, and it appeared this establishment refused me the right to my own identity. The women have no dress code, literally none. They could show up in nipples tassels if they so pleased. In fact, I bet the owner, manager, bouncers would all enjoy that. My mind definitely leans more to the "feminine" side and it's frustrating enough on a daily basis not being treated like society would treat a "girl". And then to express the desire to be treated this way only to be denied in such a insensitive way. It hurts. And there lie the harsh realities.

    ---------- Post added 5th Jun 2013 at 03:56 PM ----------

    And that's just it. I think I forget because I got so used to the open-mindedness of living in a big city that being stuck back here makes me feel like all progression in my life has ceased and I'm on rewind. And it feels like a constant battle just to keep myself and how far I've come in tact and not succumb to the feelings that I have to compromise myself, hide and pretend again.