Organic food

[Daisy1]

The more I read, the more organic food seems like a marketing scam. Do you guys buy organic? If so, why?

[maverick]

When I have the money, I like to buy organic. You just have to be a critical thinker, because just because something says "organic" on it doesn't necessarily mean it is because the labeling system is so vague.

To really be sure that you're eating good produce, you have to investigate the growing/travel methods invested in it.

My favorite place to get this kind of stuff is the farmer's market though. I like buying local.

[djt820]

Penn and Teller did an episode on organic food. It was pretty interesting.

[Daisy1]

Originally Posted by maverick

When I have the money, I like to buy organic. You just have to be a critical thinker, because just because something says "organic" on it doesn't necessarily mean it is because the labeling system is so vague.

That's definitely true. I mean, it doesn't even have to be completely organic or chemical free!

Originally Posted by maverick

My favorite place to get this kind of stuff is the farmer's market though. I like buying local.

Agreed. Love the farmer's market near my apartment and their delicious, lop-sided veggies.

[starfish]

I buy Organic milk. I can't drink the non organic kind, it gives me really bad cramps. I also like that it lasts longer.

[Chip]

True organically grown food is one thing. The watered-down "organic" standard that the FDA and FTC imposed some years back is another.

The standard that existed prior to the federal one, created by a consortium of organic farmers, mandated all sorts of things to ensure not only that there were no pesticides or artificial fertilizers used, but that food was not irradiated, hormones were not introduced to cows providing milk, there were "buffer zones" around organic farms so no accidental pollution of organic crops could happen, and various other protections.

The watered-down standards stripped some of those protections, and allowed some pesticides and fertilizers "of natural origin" that are so refined as to be almost as dangerous and undesirable as their commercial counterparts.

BUT... the standards do still ensure that the worst commercial pesticides cannot be used on organic crops, that natural fertilizers are used, and particularly with some crops, such as grapes, tomatoes, broccoli, lettuce, there's a meaningful difference in terms of pesticide-free food. There are also some differences in the nutritional quality of some organically grown foods, but that's very uneven, and the data has been widely misquoted to overstate the differences.

So, on the whole, it's a good thing to support organic farming, because it is definitely healthier, and it is also better for our planet... but the best is to support small local farms that farm organically and still conform to the stricter standards in place before the federal standards replaced them.

[Morphim]

I don't buy organically produced food that often because it's so expensive here, but I do prefer organic soy products to non-organic. I always buy organic tamari and tofu.

[Mogget]

It's a scam, and can be actively unhealthy. The most common natural fertilizer used is manure, which carries all sorts of bacteria. Organic food is no healthier than non-organic and is more likely to carry harmful bacteria. There are other problems too, such as the fact that irradiated food is also less likely to carry diseases than non-irradiated food. Natural isn't always better.

[Filip]

Disclaimer: I work in the food additives industry. They're paying my bills, so I'm aware I might be biased.
Also, in Europe, even our non-organic food sees less treatment than the food in the US does.

That said:
I don't generally think it's ALL a scam, but yeah: in a lot of cases, I fail to see why some set of almost arbitrary restrictions should have an impact on the food I buy.

There are exceptions, where I am quite cautious. Hormones have been shown to actually transfer into meat and milk, and as such, I'm rather weary of hormone-treated animals (though I'm not going to die of hunger over it

But on other topics, like pesticides, a lot of the restrictions seem arbitrary. I actually prefer to have farmers use refined fertilisers and pesticides compared to what passes for "natural" (and usually is code for: "was used before we were born, so trust ye farmers of olde")

GMOs too, are not necessarily a bad thing. Sure, the variety wouldn't have ordinarily arisen in nature, but I have, so far, seen very little evidence to the exaggerated claims of some. Not ones I could levy against regularly-bred new varieties either.

And I still fail to see what's wrong with irradiation. Obviously the mention of "radiation" might make some people scared, but in this context, it is, IMO quite harmless.


That said; it's never bad to look at the food industry with a critical eye.
I like having guarantee that the animals I eat were treated humanely.
I happily buy local produce to a make sure impact of transport is low.
I'm quite critical of how some big companies abuse their key patents to strong-arm farmers into compliance.
And I'd try the organic brand just to check if it tastes better.

And, because it needs to be posted:

+ YouTube Video

[adam88]

I dislike the term "organic" used in this context. "Pesticide-free naturally-grown" would be more accurate. As far as I'm concerned, the only inorganic things at my table are the table salt (which is mined or evaporated from seawater) and white vinegar (which is of biological origin through fermentation, then distilled to separate the acetic acid and water from the other stuff) that go on my fish and chips.

I can't be the only person who feels this way? Seriously, if someone were to ask if the food I'm eating is organic, my answer would be yes, as the inverse would insinuate eating things of mineral origin.

[seeksanctuary]

Originally Posted by Liam

It's a scam, and can be actively unhealthy. The most common natural fertilizer used is manure, which carries all sorts of bacteria. Organic food is no healthier than non-organic and is more likely to carry harmful bacteria. There are other problems too, such as the fact that irradiated food is also less likely to carry diseases than non-irradiated food. Natural isn't always better.

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have unbiased (or reasonably objective) resources for the bolded part?

Because really... to me, I would think that is something washing and cooking could solve. Most bacteria isn't going to survive all that, unless you're eating raw. Plus with all the pesticides and handling that goes into non-organic foods, I would think that at the end of the day, organic and non-organic as just as germ-y as one another... just in different ways.

But eh, I'm more inclined to buy from farmer's markets and actual organic foods because they taste better to me...

[Mogget]

I couldn't find anything recent on the subject, which inclines me to believe that my sources (largely bloggers in the skeptical--and generally green-friendly--community) were familiar with earlier research. Nothing recent seems to indicate risks from manure. There is some controversy about the ability of organic farming to yield crops without taking up more land than non-organic farms (and hence might be less green-friendly), but the studies are inconclusive.

[Austin]

I don't find organic food to really taste better. And a lot of my organic food is from Trader Joe's which is probably just as bad for the earth. I probably should go to farmer's markets. Having no experience, though, I wonder how you can trust that they are really organic?

Anyways, I typically use this list often... Organic.org - The "Dirty Dozen" to decide which foods to buy organic.

Since I live at home, and my parents buy me food, I try to be more conservative with their money. If I was older and could afford it, I'd buy a lot more organics.

The staples that I typically buy organic are apples, carrots, lettuce, spinach, whole grain bread, whole grain spaghett, yogurt, oatmeal.

The reason I get these organic is because the price is not that much more for everything other than apples. Apples are one of the most pesticide'd fruits though, and one of my favorites. For some reasons, maybe it's psychological, but, my body feels usually "cleaner" in a sense when I have an apple. When I have a little headache or feel a little depressed, or just crappy in general, eating an apple usually makes it better. I might sound crazy, but this is my experience. Psychological or physiological makes no difference if I feel better. :P

Anyways /endrant.... I buy organic foods because it's better for the environment than typical farming methods; the are almost the same price for many items, so why not? And, you vote with your money. I like to give my money to companies who grow organic food over conventionally grown foods. I don't really want to support companies like Monsanto....

---------- Post added 1st Oct 2011 at 09:38 PM ----------

Originally Posted by djt820

Penn and Teller did an episode on organic food. It was pretty interesting.

That episode... was... bullshit. lol. Very objective (/sarcasm).

[Chip]

Originally Posted by Liam

It's a scam, and can be actively unhealthy.

There is zero data to back this up, and voluminous data to the contrary.

The most common natural fertilizer used is manure, which carries all sorts of bacteria.

News flash: Many types of produce WILL NOT GROW without a balance of healthy bacteria, earthworms, and other life forms in the soil. Manure has been used as fertilizer for, oh, a few thousand years. What do you think dirt is made of? One of the criteria the previous organic standard looked at to determine the quality of farming for the even higher-grade "biodynamic" standard was the presence of living matter (helpful insects, earthworms, healthy bacteria) per cubic foot of soil.

Additionally, many of the newer "organic" fertilizers that are allowed under the federal organic agriculture act are actually fairly processed materials (some of which would not have been allowed under the earlier, stricter standards developed by the organic farming industry itself.)

Organic food is no healthier than non-organic and is more likely to carry harmful bacteria.

If that's the case, why is it that *all* of the produce recalls in the past 5 years (remember the tomato scare? The lettuce e.coli problem? the current problem with cantaloupes?) have been with commercially grown produce rather than organic produce? A well-run organic farm grows healther plants, with stronger natural immunity to various insects, worms, rot, scab, and other problems that commercial farmers have to use potent pesticides, fungicides, and other treatments to control. Additionally, because organic farming tends to use natural fertilizers such as manure, rock dust, dilute seawater, and other things, the soil is enriched with dozens or hundreds of naturally-occurring micronutrients, ensuring that both the ecology of the soil itself, as well as the plants growing in it, are substantially healthier than produce fertilized only with NPK or the other artificial fertilizers that supplement only the bare minimum nutrients.

This has been extensively studied, both by the organic agriculture industry as well as by the USDA and numerous foreign governments and international agriculture associations. It also has implications to human health, though it's a nuanced issue. While some types of vegetables and fruits grown organically do have substantially higher content of certain vitamins and minerals (and particularly micronutrients), for others it makes substantially less difference. But the soil quality differences, and the quality of topsoil in organic farms vs. commercial farms is not something that's disputed by much of anyone except, maybe, Monsanto.

There are other problems too, such as the fact that irradiated food is also less likely to carry diseases than non-irradiated food.

As far as I know (and I was following this extensively at the time they were attempting to pass laws allowing food irradiation), there's actually no data whatsoever to support this notion. The commercial produce industry sold us on this idea, but provided no data to back it up. What is true is that produce which is irradiated definitely has a much longer shelf life, because pretty much everything in it is dead, while unirradiated food, which still has the active enzymes, micronutrients, and other "live food" elements, naturally degrades as it gets older, as it should. Food irradiation was done as a convenience to the food industry, to be able to sell old produce for longer, without it going bad. It was sold to the public with the idea it would be "safer", but I've seen zero studies actually comparing the presence of harmful bacteria in real-world situations (such as looking at irradiated vs. non-irradiated produce present at the retail level and comparing bacteria levels and other safety factors.)

One has to be really cautious where one pulls data from on this topic; it is highly polarized, and the tree-huggers on the one hand, and the Monsanto and commercial agribusiness industry, on the other, both tend to speak in hyperbole. The reliable data, as is often the case, comes from research done at the university level and not funded by the agribusiness, chemical, or other big business lobby. Sadly, there's too little of that in the US, so much of the best data comes from studies done in Europe and elsewhere.

[Aya McCabre]

Organic food of the kind that wasn't grown for picky supermarkets tastes better. There's no much emphasis on looks in supermarkets that they breed all the taste out. The best tomatoes ever are black, lumpy and just one will last you a week. not the sort of thing supermarkets like selling.

I would buy more organic stuff if I could afford it because I spend so much time studying the environmental impacts of stuff. not that organic is always better - the distance it travels to get to you (and how it travels) also has a huge impact. But local and organic is best for the environment and therefore best for the humans that live in it.

[Ridiculous]

Originally Posted by Aya McCabre

Organic food of the kind that wasn't grown for picky supermarkets tastes better. There's no much emphasis on looks in supermarkets that they breed all the taste out. The best tomatoes ever are black, lumpy and just one will last you a week. not the sort of thing supermarkets like selling.

I hear ya: heirloom tomatoes do usually taste nicer. However I wouldn't call them organic just because of their cultivar; heirloom and non-mainstream varieties of produce can just as easily be grown 'non-organically' as the supermarket varieties can be. They are just a different breed after all.

[Meropspusillus]

Originally Posted by Liam

I couldn't find anything recent on the subject, which inclines me to believe that my sources (largely bloggers in the skeptical--and generally green-friendly--community) were familiar with earlier research. Nothing recent seems to indicate risks from manure. There is some controversy about the ability of organic farming to yield crops without taking up more land than non-organic farms (and hence might be less green-friendly), but the studies are inconclusive.

While it may be (almost definitely) true that organic farms take up more space to produce the same amount of food than farms that use chemical control and other such methods of controlling pests and fertilizing I'm sure any ecosystem would be gabs healthier being right next to an organic farm than another one. It's scary how many disgusting things farms put into the environment.

Originally Posted by adam88

I dislike the term "organic" used in this context. "Pesticide-free naturally-grown" would be more accurate. As far as I'm concerned, the only inorganic things at my table are the table salt (which is mined or evaporated from seawater) and white vinegar (which is of biological origin through fermentation, then distilled to separate the acetic acid and water from the other stuff) that go on my fish and chips.

I can't be the only person who feels this way? Seriously, if someone were to ask if the food I'm eating is organic, my answer would be yes, as the inverse would insinuate eating things of mineral origin.

I dislike it when people use the word blue as a synonym to sad: the only thing blue around here is the sky! :P

[Zontar]

Waste of money. There's nothing wrong with the "inorganic" brands; little to no evidence exists of any harm coming to humans from GE crops or pesticides...if they weren't safe, they wouldn't be sold.

There's nothing actively wrong with organic food per se, it just takes more effort than is needed to grow and is pricier.

[RaeofLite]

Having lived in the countryside in Canada... I know that some farms are indeed organic. And some are not. However.. that being said, there is a sort of process the farmers have to go through (at least in BC), that farmers have to be evaluated by someone to be deemed certified organic farm.

That being said... Joe Blow down the highway or road might have a non organic farm and may spray pesticides and other toxic chemicals and... look at that-a windy day might come up and spray it all over the organic farm.


Tough to say in my opinion.

I always wash my food and try to buy local if I can. Don't know about the organic end of it though..

[Austin]

Originally Posted by Zontar

Waste of money. There's nothing wrong with the "inorganic" brands; little to no evidence exists of any harm coming to humans from GE crops or pesticides...if they weren't safe, they wouldn't be sold.

There's nothing actively wrong with organic food per se, it just takes more effort than is needed to grow and is pricier.

I would imagine it is quite difficult to get that kind of evidence in humans, since we cannot do experiments on on them...

I wouldn't particularly trust the FDA, which says lots of things are safe....

---------- Post added 3rd Oct 2011 at 03:19 AM ----------

Originally Posted by RaeofLite

That being said... Joe Blow down the highway or road might have a non organic farm and may spray pesticides and other toxic chemicals and... look at that-a windy day might come up and spray it all over the organic farm.

There would still be significantly less pesticides on the organic foods.