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Expose myself......

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by merlin, Jul 26, 2013.

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  1. merlin

    merlin Guest

    Hi,

    My therapist and a dear friend both advised me I should get out and "expose" myself more to people in the queer community. This because my current strategy was more like "let's see who I might bump into", which of course never works in a work environment or in cases where neither party knows if the other is queer or not. However, I have no clue as to how I should approach this. The suggestions were to go to a coffee shop in the queer neighbourhood and just have a coffee and see how things go without having any expectations. That seems easy, but is that the best strategy? Being 53 and into younger guys (18-30 years), sitting in a coffee shop or bar seems like a "poster boy" for an old creepy guy. So, I wonder what could I do to avoid that impression and perhaps as a question to the younger guys out here, if you are into older men, what do you look for and what is a definite no-no? How can I present myself as being interested in a serious relationship, not a quick hookup (not that it is bad or so, just not my thing)? Any suggestions you might have (including perhaps taking a very different road) would be very welcome. I also signed up for two dating sites, but I hesitate to put up a picture (even though the sites recommend it) and the "matches" I get are let's say disappointing. If people have tips on how to "work" these sites, please let me know as well. I am all new to this and although I believe in learning by trial and error, trying to avoid some obvious mistakes would be nice. Thanks for your help :thumbsup:
     
    #1 merlin, Jul 26, 2013
  2. LD579

    LD579
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    Are you saying you're into younger guys? I would advise you to not date anyone under 30... for many, many reasons. There's just too much room for abuse and imbalance, whether it's consciously or subconsciously perpetuated by you or the guy, or whether it's just a fact about what places you and the other person would be in your lives.

    You could also look into LGBT+ meet ups in your area, besides dating sites and such. You'd be aiming to make friends, though, not going just to look for a relationship. For now, making connections with others should be your first move. Romance will come later. If you force it, it'll likely not be up to your standards.
     
    #2 LD579, Jul 26, 2013
  3. merlin

    merlin Guest

    Hi Luthan,

    Yes, making friends is something that would be first on my mind, and I understand your reservations regarding a relationship with young(er) men. Unfortunately, I'm not attracted at all to men of my age or even men above roughly 35. I know of LGBT+ groups, which do not appeal to me at all (and I mean for friendship purposes, not romance in this case). I do try to keep an open mind on this, and who knows, I may change in this respect once I get a network of friends in the queer community, but I'm not optimistic.
     
    #3 merlin, Jul 26, 2013
  4. Chip

    Chip
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    No offense but... working on your attractions should be front and center in your therapy. I'll get to the "getting out there" but I feel like this part is even more important.

    Given that you are only recently out and not fully out, part of your attraction to younger guys is a normal byproduct of mourning the loss of not being out yourself when you were in your teens and 20s, and the loss of all that time and those activities, so what is most likely going on here is you're feeling the attraction to these younger guys as an unconscious way of living vicariously through them.

    Here's the reality: You're not going to find an emotionally healthy guy under 30 who wants to be with someone old enough to be his dad. You might find either a gold digger looking for a rich daddy type, who might *claim* he loves you but in reality is only after money and gifts and the like. Or you might find someone who is incredibly needy, and royally emotionally messed up, who probably never had a proper father figure and is projecting his desire for a father figure onto his romantic interests. Neither is healthy.

    The truth is, people who are emotionally healthy aren't attracted to people half their age or twice their age, and it's pretty much impossible to have a healthy relationship because of the inherent power imbalances of age, experience, money, and so forth.

    I know a lot of guys in your position, and they all have a ton of shame, terrible self esteem, and an ever-growing stream of broken relationships and broken hearts.

    I also know guys who have started out feeling like you feel (as I said, it is a common thing for those coming out later in life), but who, instead, choose to work on that issue in therapy and work through it and understand it... after which, they find their attractions changing, and the quality and longevity of their relationships changing substantially as they are able to feel a connection to people around their own age.

    As far as meeting guys 18-30... I'm sorry, but there's no way to do it without being seen as a creeper. As I said above, nobody under 30 who has good self esteem and is emotionally healthy is going to want to consider going out with someone twice his age, and the ones who do have serious problems, and you will be doing both them and you a HUGE disservice by encouraging an emotionally unhealthy relationship.

    And please don't even think about the "make friends first for 2 months and then start hitting on them" plan, because what you do then is *royally* creep them out and destroy their sense of trust in anyone older than they are... not to mention, destroy any friendship you had with them, because they will feel very betrayed.

    I know this isn't at all what you wanted to hear, or even responsive to your question, but i feel like it's really, really important to put it out there unvarnished. Again, the intent is not to shame you or damage your self esteem, but to help you understand the issue and the idea that there *is* a solution for it.

    So back to the getting out there and making contact... My very strong recommendation is that you not think in terms of relationships or hookups for the moment. Put your energy into making friends, and by that, I mean friends your own age. That will both help your own emotional, social and psychological development, as well as helping your self esteem, because friendships where we can honestly be ourselves, with others who are like us, help to make us happier and emotionally healthier.

    And if you haven't so far, really talk to your therapist about your interest in people half your age. Your therapist is probably being very non-directive, which s/he should be, but in this case, it's really doing you a disservice by not talking about the emotional difficulties you face if you don't address this issue. So if you take the initiative to address it and say you want to work on it, your therapist should be able to really help with that. (If s/he can't, or doesn't want to, then you have a shitty therapist.)

    None of this is any fun. But the important take-away is, if you do the work, you'll be able to end up emotionally healthy and happy and in a relationship with someone you are genuinely attracted to, who shares common interests and life experiences, where both of you can help each other grow.
     
    #4 Chip, Jul 26, 2013
  5. merlin

    merlin Guest

    Hi Chip,

    Well I asked for it ;-) Thanks for the honest advice and just fyi, yes I did bring this up with my therapist and she said that there are many young men looking for older men, so go figure. But, I see your points obviously and you probably hit the nail on the head re what feeds into my attractions. I don't really know if therapy can change this, but I can certainly ask my therapist next time about her view on this matter (other than exploring it ;-). What I thought was a tough road, is becoming more of a gravel path on a steep mountain edge with no barriers to keep me from falling off :frowning2:
    Thanks again for your advice, I do really appreciate your honesty in this matter.
     
    #5 merlin, Jul 27, 2013
  6. BudderMC

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    Ultimately, just because there are a lot of younger guys looking for older guys does not excuse older guys looking for younger guys. As mentioned, it isn't healthy for all parties involved. If you bring this up with your therapist in your next session and emphasize that you're concerned about it not being healthy, hopefully she'll bring that to the forefront and make it more of a priority issue.
     
    #6 BudderMC, Jul 27, 2013
  7. skiff

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    Hi,

    The "safest" place to start would be to attend a "Gay Fathers of Toronto" meeting.

    These are men who understand bonding and relationship best. They are responsible gay adults otherwise they would never attend such a support group.

    Gay Fathers of Toronto

    Just my opinion.
     
    #7 skiff, Jul 27, 2013
  8. DanD

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    I can completely understand where merlin is coming from. I too don't really find men my age attractive, and I also prefer younger guys. I've no experience at all, but the chemistry is definitely there.
    Chip does have extremely good points, and I also think it could be the simple fact that our bodies tend to get worse as we get older. This is very shallow, but from an artistic point of view, a younger male looks more appealing than an older one; although personality should count for a lot.
    Without therapy, the only option left I guess is to grow old and lonely while enjoying the eye candy, but without doing anything about it.

    I'm supposed to be at a family party right now, but I've decided to stay away because I just can't talk about anything positive, and feel they're better off without abnormal me.
     
    #8 DanD, Jul 27, 2013
  9. PeteNJ

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    I'm hit on all the time by guys half my age. Is it a Daddy/Papi thing? yes, I think it often is. I have confidence, experience, and can talk with these guys about where they are in life and where they're going -- that someone their age probably doesn't. Only crossed that line once...

    I have a good friend, formerly married, kids in their late 20's, he's 50, his boyfriend of 2 1/2 years is 22. They've been living together for 2 years, are very much in love, and to me, are a great couple. The 50 year old is a successful lawyer, the 22 year old, just going back to college. So in exceedingly different places in life.

    To me, though, that's ultimately not what I would want in a relationship. To each his own.
     
    #9 PeteNJ, Jul 27, 2013
  10. Chip

    Chip
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    Does your therapist have a lot of experience working with LGBT people in general, and older gay men in particular? That sort of response is a typical nonjudgmental comment from a therapist, so either she didn't feel it was therapeutically appropriate to discuss the concern and the options, or she doesn't have a lot of experience in the area.

    I think if you spend some more time on the topic, you'll get a clearer picture of whether or not she is really equipped to help you with this issue.
     
    #10 Chip, Jul 27, 2013
  11. merlin

    merlin Guest

    Thank you all for your comments and suggestions. I really appreciate this. I just came back from a trip to gay village because I just wanted to look around and try to be as open minded as possible about men of my age or any men above roughly 35. Well, I must say there was not a single man in that category that even remotely appealed to me. Now, would therapy help me set my orientation straight (I mean, in the appropriate age group)? I sincerely doubt that. The scientific basis for most therapy is pretty sketch except for some very specific disorders like phobias (which respond well to desensitization methods etc.). I myself have always preferred younger men (similar to DanDavies), even when I was 25+. In recent years I find myself a little bit more tolerant for features that used to put me off totally (some chest hair, stubble) but that's it. I can't even think of a single famous so-called highly attractive movie-star or artist who is above 35 that I could see myself with in a relationship (apart from all other factors). I only once in my entire life had a crush on a guy who was above 35, but then he looked much younger. So, will a therapist be able to help me with this problem. I think that is very unlikely. Will I ever find someone who I can relate to who is genuinely interested in me (and not a gold digger (no chance as there is no gold), or someone with daddy issues)? Not very likely unless he is 50+ but looks like he is 25. So, I have the choice to stay alone or find a way to ask my wife to take me back (which is hard for her I'm sure) and just hide back in my closet, or just end it all and be done with it. At this point, I'm still hoping there is someone out there but I realize it is mostly dreaming.

    ---------- Post added 27th Jul 2013 at 02:50 PM ----------

    Thanks Skiff for that great tip. I did not know this existed. I will definitely give that a try. Not that I think it will change my preferences (and that was probably not why you mentioned it), but it will no doubt give me more insights and perhaps allow me to build some friendships.
     
    #11 merlin, Jul 27, 2013
  12. germanion

    germanion Guest

    I don't have experience in this because I am still having problems with the idea of having a relationship with a man , but for me it doesn't matter if he is older than me .Actually it depends on his personality and character,the idea of being with a person who is funny ,polite and well educated attracts me , even I like it more than being with a guy younger than me (I am 28) .To be honest I am not interested at all in the younger gay guys lol .If I decided to date someone he should be older than 30 or 35 .So I think there are guys who will be interested in you if your personality suits them .

    Good Luck
     
    #12 germanion, Jul 27, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 27, 2013
  13. merlin

    merlin Guest

    Hi Germanion,

    Thank you for this word of hope that perhaps somewhere there is a young(er) person who likes me for who I am, regardless of my age :slight_smile: If there are other younger men in the EC group who feel likewise, let me know so I can feel a bit less depressed about my future :slight_smile:
     
    #13 merlin, Jul 27, 2013
  14. Chip

    Chip
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    I realize from another thread that you've said you're depressed and on medication that isn't working, so it's clear that the above is likely heavily influenced by your depression.

    That said, you're taking a very fatalistic attitude. Of course, if you've felt this way for a long time, you're not going to, overnight, be able to see any change in your attractions, especially if you've done no work on the issue.

    However, I can tell you from my direct experience in working with people on the reverse issue (younger guys only attracted to older ones) that attractions can and do change, and pretty dramatically. I know a number of people in their late teens who were only attracted to much older guys who are now actively dating or in relationships with people closer to their own age.

    As far as the efficacy of therapy... yes, research on the subject shows ambiguous results. However, a big part of that is the difficulty with having any sort of consistency in the way therapy is delivered. Each therapist is unique in his or her approach. And there's plenty of anecdotal data that good therapy can have a profound and dramatic impact on the lives of those who participate in it. Now... if you don't feel your therapy is helping, then you may not have a therapist that's right for you. Don't be afraid to try out a session or two with another one, or call 4 or 5 and do a short phone conversation with them.

    This is definitely a solvable problem. The question is whether you've already made up your mind that it isn't.
     
    #14 Chip, Jul 28, 2013
  15. bdman

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    Is this the only therapist you have seen? In all honesty, that statement that statement about younger men looking for older men doesn't sound like good advice. I would seriously consider trying out a few others and then pick one you thing you would have good connection with.

    I wonder if part of this type of feeling is retarded sexual development. Where you are kind of stuck in the teenage/college age state of mind in terms of sexual/emotional development. That part never aged/developed along with the rest of you because you were not true to who you are. who knows.
     
    #15 bdman, Jul 28, 2013
  16. merlin

    merlin Guest

    Thanks for your input on this, bdman. I'm going to see another therapist in September (waiting lists etc.) and actually, the issue of being stuck in a teenage/college state of mind was brought up with my current therapist a session ago, so it is definitely an option (I prefer delayed instead of retarded sexual development but that's just me ;-).

    ---------- Post added 28th Jul 2013 at 06:44 AM ----------

    Hi Chip,

    I agree that depression at this point will colour everything I say or do, and perhaps you are right that even my attractions can change with therapy. You're right I may be too fatalistic (I prefer skeptic ;-), but I will definitely bring it up (see my other post in response to bdman) as I realize I should at least give this a try. It is kind of ironic, but when you said you helped younger guys to "refocus" (I know, not the right word, but can't think of a better one early in the morning) I had two thoughts: a. oh no, you're making the pool for me even smaller ;-) and b. it seems easier to get a young(er) guy feel attracted to other younger guys than an older guy feel attracted to older guys. Do you know about that in terms of anecdotal or published work? I'm just curious about the kind of uphill battle I may have to face here (and yes, I'm a bit reluctant to go that way because in my current mindset the idea of relating to people of my age in an intimate way is totally out of the question). Anyway, you make very good points and as I said, I'm willing to bring this up with my therapist or another therapist that I have lined up, so to speak, for September. Thanks again, Chip. I may not always like what I read, but I know these words come out of concern and a genuine effort to help, so I do appreciate your advice very much.
     
    #16 merlin, Jul 28, 2013
  17. bdman

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    Yeah, the word may be appropriate, but has other inappropriate negative associations. Delayed is good, or maybe stifled or suppressed.
     
    #17 bdman, Jul 28, 2013
  18. merlin

    merlin Guest

    #18 merlin, Jul 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2013
  19. RainbowMan

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    Sure, you can link to those articles, it's not against the rules (provided that your name isn't used in them)

    Reading the second one also gets me to thinking that that is a reserved, non-judgemental reaction from a therapist (to someone that's not even his client, so there's no way he can possibly know what's going on beyond the contents of that letter, the same way that I don't pretend to know what's going on with you beyond the contents of this thread)

    I can't possibly see how that second relationship is healthy. Like Chip (and the people referenced in the letter) say, there are probably some issues on his partner's part, such as attachment issues. Do I think that it might be able to work? Possibly. Do I think that the likelihood of it not working is greater than that of it working? Absolutely.
     
    #19 RainbowMan, Jul 28, 2013
  20. KyleD

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    Merlin, are there any qualities you look for in another man? That could help you better understand yourself.

    I'm 26 and I tend to be attracted to much older guys but it's not just age that sparks my attraction.
     
    #20 KyleD, Jul 28, 2013
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