Some questions about the fine line between being gay and bi.

Interesting question. While I always knew guys turned me on and girls didn't do much for me, I was very attracted to my wife and for the first several years, we certainly had no problems with sex. If anything, I wanted to be more creative with her than she really was interested in. And of course, that only reinforced my conviction that I wasn't really gay, I just need to find the "right woman". And in fact, even now, after accepting myself as gay, I can certainly visualize myself having sex with a woman and it doesn't disgust me or turn me off or anything. But I have to consciously visualize it. It doesn't just come automatically to mind.

What I have come to realize, even without having been in a relationship with a guy, is that I feel a kind of gut reaction to guys that I never have felt for women. I can casually notice an attractive woman walking down the street and keep walking, but an attractive guy will make me turn around for another look. A nice guy will give me an emotional reaction that a nice woman won't. If I idly imagine myself holding someone, having a fun time with someone, having sex with someone, it's always a guy. I assume that if I was bi, there would be at least some crossover, but there just isn't. Hope that answers your question, at least in part.

 

That I was attracted to women in the past was a problem for me--for about a week. Not at all simple. Can't explain it to my complete satisfaction, but doesn't feel like there is (or was) some important contradiction in my life. My most passionate infatuations never lasted--the longest, maybe 5 months. Most telling for me (married twice, for 8 and then 9 years) was how sex became more and more difficult after a few years. Seemed like so much work. I thought--maybe it was never there. Maybe I need something way more passionate to start with--to inoculate the relationship (that was the word I'd use), a women who would really do it for me. I see an attractive woman now... and the 'work' part is all that comes to mind. With men--don't even have to be what I thought of as my 'type,' if they're open and sexually available, I'm there! It's not work at all. Just pleasure.
It amazes me. Like a magic spell has been cast over me. Sometimes I shake my head, and say... wow. What the fuck happened?
So, while I had never thought it strange to have both straight and homoerotic fantasies, I never felt any inclination to going AC/DC. Once my fantasies became exclusivily male directed, it was clear to me that I was gay, not bi.

 

My experience is that I am attracted to a person, not just a gender. At certain times in my life I have definitely been more attracted to men than women and I am more likely to fantasize about men (probably also beacause I couldn't act on those feelings for so long), but I cannot imagine my life without having sex with a woman again (which makes me believe I am bi). I don't believe there is a line between gay and bi, it's more like a stretch of beach that has low tide or high tide, it just depends on the person you meet whether the beach is wet or dry.

 

DesertTortoise explained it well, I think.
For me, once I started looking at my life, attraction to women permeated every single part of every year. I had always assumed I was bi, but had a hard time with sex in relationships with men after a while, always.
With women, it is DIFFERENT. Electric. I have never been a big fan of public affection- and that is also like night and day. I always assumed I wasn't a huge fan of sex. Nope, I am just gay. Very gay.

 

Everyone has different experiences and thus different answers.

The romantic experiences I've had with women were not enjoyable. They were light on the sex and heavy on the interpersonal stuff. I felt smothered. Sexual experiences with women that were casual and spontaneous were better. Similarly, emotional attachments to men during sex were absent. I've had a couple of FWB situations that worked out well while they lasted and then ended. They were people I liked and I don't feel bad about the fading out. These situations just ran their course.

Another key thing for me is availability. People may disagree with me. That's their prerogative. A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush. When a guy chooses to have sex with you, he's not giving that much of himself, at least from what I can see, so it feels like less of an encumbrance. When a woman is going to have sex with you, it's either because you have done quite a bit of leg work pursuing her or she's assertive and has pursued you. If I'm faced with choosing between an attractive man and an attractive woman, I'd have to think about it. If I'm faced with choosing between an attractive man and a woman I'm not interested in, especially if she's interested in a relationship, the choice is easy.

I don't know of anyone who processes their sexuality this way. I know I do. I have an idea as to what the basis might be, but I'm not sure.

 

Definitely attracted to the person, not the gender...though a person's sex does something for me that their gender doesn't, for sure.

But I like this sexuality bellwether of thinking of whom you could or couldn't live without. I've been with a female partner for 27 years, and have "fought off" assertions that I am a lesbian for years, since I have identified as bisexual all along. But it has haunted me at times...hey, could there be *reasons* why I've been without men for so long? Even if I *think* I'm still interested in them? Of course, I've also entertained the idea that, as my attractions to men seem to be increasing with age, perhaps I'm "turning straight" *eek!!*

When I reach deep inside, though, and really test my reaction to "suppose you're partner was no longer in the picture (to eliminate a confounding factor); now how do you feel about spending the rest of your life without a woman? And how do you feel about spending the rest of your life without a man?" I get panicky to both. I do want sexual contact with men in my life. But the thought of settling down with one throws me into a tailspin. I need male companionship...but I need female companionship (sexual and otherwise) even more.

So I guess that makes me about a 4 on a scale of 0 to 6...which is how I've identified all these years. Go figure.

 

To me, the behavioral model with hetersexuality at one end and homosexuality at the other with many steps in between always seemed appropriate to me. I think we are all a combination of both, but in varying degrees. In that context, I would probably rate myself as fairly close to 50/50. At this point in my life, I've had more male partners than female but that probably had more to do with circumstances than anything else.

I believe that all bisexuality means is that genetalia and gender (or appearant gender) has a lesser priority in attraction and romance than it does for people who are near one end of the spectrum or the other. That may seem like an oversimplification, but to me it is that straightforward.

The idea of changing one's role can also be appealing. Typically with women, I take the aggressive role. However, with men I can choose to take the submissive role. The interesting thing is that when I did that, I instantly understood how the male/female sexual dynamic worked. Sometimes with women, it is a case of the tail wagging the dog. By that I mean that although the female is theoretically in the submissive role, she actually can bring a lot of power and authority into the physical situation and it's possible that manipulation can result.

Note that I am not saying that this is what always happens. What I am saying is that there is the potential for this kind of manipulation to happen. While it is true that men can do the same thing to women, I believe that the right set of circumstances is much more rare.

 

Hi everyone, i'm new to this forum and so glad to find a group to chat too.

I have had strong feeling towards men since my early teens but pushed them as far aside as possible, my parents were very old school and religious, so talking about sex and sexuality was taboo.

I'm very confused about my sexual orientation, up untill now I considered myself bisexual. I have had a number of relationships with women and i'm currently married, my wife is totally familiar with my sttraction to men and i have been up front and honest with her about my 4 breif encouters with men in the past.

I'm at a stage in my life where i find myself looking more and more at men and most aspects of male fashion etc etc. Even at the gym i drift towards looking at men and there bodies despite a few attractive woman working out. My wife has hinted to me that she thinks i am more gay and she is worried that i am missing out on a key part of my life.


My upbringing, religion and society seems to be making my decisions so difficult, which is adding to my current anxiety and depression.

Anyone else have this?

 

Hi, Varro. Welcome. I can relate, minus the marriage part.

Upbringing? Yep, though more traditional and certainly not fire and brimstone; did not talk about sex, but wouldn't get wigged out over nudity and sex in a R-rated movie
Religion? Yep, though I've tossed it out, as in still believing but not going; it has helped
Society? I've lived in big cities, and the expectations, stereotypes, and the whole ball of wax is still there, though less than in other places.

While you can't change society, I think you can negotiate with your upbringing and religion. It's not easy. It's a journey.

They gym part is a little humorous, at least to me. It seems that there are indeed some 40ish married guys who tend to be very friendly and make more than the typical amount of eye contact. They can double as singles bars. Even more so, there is more flesh on display, with people wearing shorts and tank tops, etc.

You're lucky you have a wife that is understanding. Will that continue, meaning is she supportive? Or is she miffed?

Welcome. Many share your experience, with some whose wives are aware and others whose wives are not, and everything in between.

 

The other important issue here is the difference between your orientation and the label you put on it (basically, how you identify yourself).

You ask "can you really say you are bi...?" The answer is of course you can! You can also say you're straight. You can say you're a mongoose if you want to.

The important question you ask is "how do you pinpoint it?" The fact is that some personalities care a lot about language and its correct use, and others really don't think about it that much. So some try to pinpoint, and others just toss a dart, and as long as it lands in the right vicinity, it's ok with them.

Many women in my situation would accept the label lesbian just because they haven't been with a man in 27 years. But I'm a stickler for accuracy in language, and I have no interest in facilitating a future where I am never with a man. So I've doggedly stuck with "bisexual", because that interpretation fits my personality.

Take a random, let's say guy, who was married to a woman and now identifies as gay. Chances are, he was aware of same-sex attraction at least in his youth, but also considered himself (at one point) attracted to his wife at some level. Chances are he now considers that attraction to women just "programming" that he is finally working past. But how does he *know* that he is not simply "reprogramming" himself to accommodate his other sexual interest? The fact is that neither you, nor I...nor he...can really *know*...we only know the story we tell ourselves and others.

I am NOT saying *any* of these people are not really gay. What I am saying is that some people would respond to that situation with one story (was always gay and only now accepted it) and label themselves gay; whereas another person would respond with another story (I've been bi all along and wouldn't let myself experiment with that other side) and label themselves bisexual. Either could be right; either could be wrong.

But in either case they are stories. We cannot know reality. We can only know the stories. And words are a major way that we create story around ourselves...shaping reality in a sense...but not really. Rather, words are a way that we focus on a particular view of reality, and help it along. This is why, rather than deploring labels or embracing them, what I really wish is that people could recognize the power, the effect of taking on a label, take on only labels that really serve who they want to be, and not question the labels that others take on, unless that label seems to be making them unhappy.

 

Wow, biAnnika, WOW! Posts like yours are the reason I read and post on here.
Your thoughts have really struck a chord with me. I have been thinking just recently not to try and describe my sexual orientation in words, but just FEEL it. It can be so complicated on a daily basis to try and "tell myself" what I am, when I actually instinctively know what I am. If that makes sense???
Thanks for your post!

 

Somewhere on one of these threads I said that what you don't want to do is try to fit a given description, or label. The way to go about it is to figure out what you want to do, who you see yourself with, etc. In short, try to figure out how you would like your life to look. From that, then figure out what description is appropriate.

Doing the former is like selectively gathering evidence to fit a particular hypothesis. Doesn't work that way, but people keep trying to do it...

 

I am bi - with complete dual preferences, but I am committed to my husband. Could I be with a woman, yes. Would I enjoy it, yes. If I left my husband and became committed to a woman and never went back to another man, would that make me a lesbian? The labels just make it all crazy. Respect and Love who you are with when you are with them and labels stop mattering as much.

 

"
Take a random, let's say guy, who was married to a woman and now identifies as gay. Chances are, he was aware of same-sex attraction at least in his youth, but also considered himself (at one point) attracted to his wife at some level. Chances are he now considers that attraction to women just "programming" that he is finally working past. But how does he *know* that he is not simply "reprogramming" himself to accommodate his other sexual interest? The fact is that neither you, nor I...nor he...can really *know*...we only know the story we tell ourselves and others."

Wow, you been stalking me? That is a very good general description of my life.

I still check out women but anymore process is more like I'll look over see a girl and think "wow she has a nice butt" but the thought of having sex with her just never enters my mind. I feel that this is just a result of left over programming. However if I see a cute guy first my mind jumps to the naughty things I would like to do to him.

---------- Post added 31st Aug 2013 at 01:13 AM ----------

It doesn't get around to "he has a nice _______" until he has walked away.

It's not that I'm opposed to the idea of sex with women I have a few couples (m/f) that I enjoy playing with from time to time but to be honest if she quit coming along I'd probably still play with him, but if he quit coming along she would be S.O.L.

I like looking at girls. I even have sex with them occasionally (only as stated above). Yet I still label myself as gay. I think if I were bi the girls wouldn't be S.O.L and while I was checking out their butt there would be at least a hint of desire there.

I think the only difference between gay and bi is how you self-identify because on the kinsey scale there are almost no '0's '6's so most everyone is at least 'a little bi' but people tend to label themselves by their desires and and even then it is only a label and labels can be changed. If you identify as gay your gay if you identify as bi your bi.

 

Wow, this thread really has me processing.

Ok, here is an analogy to explain what I mean about programming and reprogramming:

Imagine if in our culture, men are supposed to eat bread and women are supposed to eat butter. I mean these are serious longstanding social taboos...until maybe 10-20 years ago, it wasn't uncommon that a man who eats butter would get the shit kicked out of him, possibly end up dead; a woman known to eat bread could get raped or murdered. These days it's better...but that shit still does happen.

Maybe you're a man, and so growing up you avoided butter like the plague, and ate the bread you were given. It was ok. Fine, really. You even kind of liked it. But it always seemed to be missing something. Worse, you'd see your sister frying her eggs in butter, or putting butter on cooked vegetables, or on popcorn, and it always looked so good (not that you'd have admitted that to anyone for an instant).

Years go by...and you're getting really sick of the friggin bread. Maybe you stop eating bread altogether...the thought eventually makes it stick in your throat. And you still can't drop the idea of that butter. You fantasize about a big barrel of buttery popcorn at the movies.

Finally, you reach a breaking point, and say dammit, I'm just the kind of man who likes butter, instead of bread. Yes, I kinda liked bread in my youth, or thought I did...but that was just societal programming. Now by god I'm going to work past that and enjoy butter the way I always should have. And you do. And it's amazing. The popcorn is better than you could have imagined! You'll never go back to that damned bread...from here on in it's butter all the way, social consequences be damned! Sure maybe sometimes you can appreciate "hey, those are some nice buns"...but you have no desire whatsoever to eat them.

Now you can certainly paint that scenario as someone overriding their social programming in order to respect their (now) clear preference. OR you could paint it as someone who hasn't yet deprogrammed society's training that you can only have one or the other.

Again, this is *not* meant to imply that everyone is bisexual. The fact is that some people (male or female) just don't like bread; never have and never will, or *really* don't even want to try it. And to some, butter just looks like gross white grease, and they don't want to touch the stuff. It's more pointing to the notion that we have a really hard time knowing what's real and what's programming...and which programming at what level...'cause we're inside of it.

So it really does all boil down to labels...what we *want* to believe about ourselves.

 

Thanks for this post. I found this interesting. It's almost as if you're alluding to the issue of mind over matter. Part of the issue is that, for almost anything in life, there is a divergence of opinion on how anything is perceived, and thus defined. But I think you're saying that here. This is one of the more profound posts I've read on EC thus far.

 

The reason I think me liking to look at girls is social programming.

I grew up looking at butter and wanted to try it but everyone around me was all like 'boys eat bread' and thats just the way it was.
After I was on my own I tried butter and it was everything I thought it would be. For a while I would eat bread today and butter tomorrow. As time went on I got to where I absolutely loved butter and didn't give a crap if I had bread or not. Eventually I just stopped eating bread all together I could walk by a bakery and the sticky buns looked appealing but the thought of eating one never crossed my mind. One day someone invited me to dinner and we had buttered toast. The butter was still as good as ever but even with the butter I could barely choke down the toast cause it was dry, bitter, and bland.
Well I figured maybe they just had bad toast so I attended a couple more dinners of buttered toast with the same result the butter was great but the toast was so bad it made it where I didn't want the butter.

---------- Post added 31st Aug 2013 at 10:11 PM ----------

I decided if toast was so bad it ruins butter I'm definitely not ever gonna eat it w/o butter again. For a time I went back to only eating butter, but someone invited me over for buttered toast again and I accepted. OMFG the toast was 20 times worse than it had ever been before. So I decided F*** it if toast is so bad it ruins butter I'm never eating toast again under any circumstances! Yea those sticky buns in the window look good but I know if I eat one I'll probably puke.

So here I am I have butter and I only like eating butter (for some reason I cannot eat my own butter no matter how much I want too) had everybody not told me 'boys eat bread' I might have tried it just out of curiosity but I wouldn't even look in the window of the bakery if I passed by.

---------- Post added 31st Aug 2013 at 10:14 PM ----------

The reason I think me liking to look at girls is social programming.

I grew up looking at butter and wanted to try it but everyone around me was all like 'boys eat bread' and thats just the way it was.
After I was on my own I tried butter and it was everything I thought it would be. For a while I would eat bread today and butter tomorrow. As time went on I got to where I absolutely loved butter and didn't give a crap if I had bread or not. Eventually I just stopped eating bread all together I could walk by a bakery and the sticky buns looked appealing but the thought of eating one never crossed my mind. One day someone invited me to dinner and we had buttered toast. The butter was still as good as ever but even with the butter I could barely choke down the toast cause it was dry, bitter, and bland.
Well I figured maybe they just had bad toast so I attended a couple more dinners of buttered toast with the same result the butter was great but the toast was so bad it made it where I didn't want the butter.

 

You just know...you're drawn to a specific gender and have a preference...what catches your eye. Personally I've been with m/f, although I've never had a serious relationship with a guy. I just prefer women. I find myself appreciating women...The way their hair flows, their lips, eyes, walk, their voice, attitude, just everything.

To make it easier it's like making love vs. having sex. Who do you picture making long, sweet, passionate love to?