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To be or not to be "straight"

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by Yossarian, Sep 15, 2013.

  1. Yossarian

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    Hello all,

    New to this forum and seeking to talk about my situation. I was born in 1945 in a southern state. There was no such thing as "gay" back then, only "queers, faggots, and homos". No positive role models; nobody "out" visibly at all. As I grew up, I never felt quite normal, but could not identify exactly what was "wrong" with me. I was not attracted to girls, but somewhat attracted to some boys as friends. I always wanted to "be like" the boys I was attracted to; masculine, muscular, good at sports, accepted by other boys as equal. But, I was a skinny kid, nerdy smart, smooth, pale skin, and never felt like I was accepted as an equal. I was not bullied, just not solicited to join in athletic events in general, but accepted into circles of the "smart kids", so I focussed on doing those kind of things instead of athletic sort of things.

    As I entered high school, I avoided gym activities by enrolling in ROTC. I felt self conscious about being naked in front of the other boys, fearing that I might get a "boner" or be called out for staring at them in the showers. Still, I had no labels for how I felt, or no examples of anyone else who felt like I did. Yes, I heard people called queers, but did not understand what that really meant in practical terms, nor associate it with how *I* felt; it was just a derogatory term people called each other when they were angry at them, without explanation. I never imagined that I wanted to have sexual contacts with other boys, and could not imagine "falling in love" with other boys. No one did that publicly, it was not in my known universe. Boys grew up into men and eventually married girls. That was all I saw happening. Everyone was "straight"; no one was "out".

    So, I went to college, went into the USAF and did my 4 years, then got a job, never dating women, but never dating men either; such a thing would have been a "crime" as an Air Force officer, and a real negative in the workplace in the private economy. I was in a brick closet I built for myself, never exploring my feelings, never exploring the hetero universe either, as I did my job in Silicon Valley. Then, the AIDS scare came along making any explorations in San Francisco a death threat, so I kept on keeping on, burying myself in work, trying to strike it rich in Silly Valley. This continued until I was about 40 years old, when I began to think that I was missing out majorly on the purpose of life. About this time, a woman I knew from business connections decided that she liked me and was going to go after me. Facing loneliness, and tired of doing nothing but work, I decided that this was my opportunity to "be normal", so after a couple of years of very informal, not really dating, I proposed to her and we got married.

    Within a year, we had a child, and I was able to perform and enjoy "normal" sexual relations with her, even though there was not much "zing" or excitement in it for me beyond the orgasm. Due to her age, close to mine, she went into menopause not too long after our child was born, and lost much interest in having sex. We are still married, but have not had sex in the last 15 years. Our child is now out of the house on her own, I am in my late 60s, and lately feeling a lot like I screwed up majorly in how I have lived my life, pushed into the closet by the silent gay-hostile world I grew up in, and wanting to "come out" in some way before I die.

    My retirement finances, home, and friends are all tied up in this world of marriage to my wife. She has done nothing wrong, and I do not want to hurt her or my adult child in any way; it is not their fault that I was screwed up and tangled them up in this mess. I feel like I am SO TIRED of living this mistake, but I can't straighten it out now without making an even bigger mess not only for myself, but also for my wife. Trapped in the closet I built around myself.

    So, is there any escape route I am failing to see, which would let me find some gay friends to come out to, without wrecking the rest of my life and my wife's? We do not have deep enough financial assets to survive comfortably in separate households. Should I just take this secret to the grave with me and continue with what I am doing now? I know that there is not enough time left for me to rebuild my life from scratch, nor my wife either, and who wants to fall in love with an old fart anyway. Yet I now know that what would make me feel "right" would be to hold a man who loved and cared for me in my arms and share a love based on physical attraction instead of practical considerations. What to do? What to do? Help!
     
  2. bipossible

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    Yossarian, let me start by saying that your experience, although unique to the nuances that are you, is one that is shared by many, particularly those of us beyond the age of 45. So know that you are not alone in this journey. And that brings me to the next thing I would like to share, life is a journey and not a destination. I know that sounds trite, but it really is true. You did not screw up in any way. You were merely living your life based on your understanding, needs, and fears at the time. Would you have done things differently in the past if you knew and understood what you do now? Sure, we all would, but we don't enter our life's journey fully loaded with wisdom and understanding. That is for us to uncover as we move along the path. You are not the same person you were when you were a child, in college, in the air force, building your career, raising a family, etc. as you are now. One of the things that I like to remember is that every 7 years every cell in our bodies has been replaced. So literally, you are not the same person you were 7 years ago. So I would invite you to offer yourself some self-compassion. You are right where you need to be in your life, you can't help but be there.

    Now as for the journey forward, it is my personal belief that our "purpose" in life is to uncover and live our most authentic selves, to let go of attachments and the narratives we have created in our minds that serve only to keep us from doing just that. I would invite you now to shift your focus from what "could have been" and "should have been" to what is present now in this very moment. Lilly Tomlin once said that, "Forgiveness is giving up all hope for a better past." So in addition to self-compassion I would invite you to exercise some self-forgiveness and a letting go. Try to focus on the now, the man who wrote this beautiful post, who has raised a daughter into adulthood, who has found companionship and created a home with a woman, who now has a greater understanding of his personal truth — that is what lies before you.

    Now the question is, what to do with that truth. Only you can decide the path you will take, but I would invite you to move forward with the intention of living as authentically as you can. For some people that means coming out completely, abandoning their old ways of being and starting anew. That may not be practical or right for you. You have mentioned that you are in your 60s and that you cannot afford to have separate household. These are your realities right now, but they don't have to be limitations. I know many gay men in their 60s who find meaningful relationships with other men. I too cannot afford a separate household, but I am out to my wife, my child, my friends and coworkers. I date men and have been in a couple of long term relationships (I am in my mid-50s BTW) over the past 5 years. I have been able to work out this way of being with my wife mostly due to the fact that I understood the importance, and dare I say the necessity, of living authentically and my wife has understood that as well. But this is my path, it may not be yours.

    The overall sense I have gleaned from your post is that you have lived a large portion of your life being guided by fear. The obstacles to moving forward with greater authenticity are all grounded solidly in fear and perhaps a little shame mixed in as well. Perhaps it is time to let go of some of those fears and choose to be guided by love instead. As you think about your next step ask yourself, "Am I choosing this out of fear or out of love." I will be curious to hear what steps presents themselves as you continue down your life's journey.

    Wishing you ease and clarity.
     
  3. iadsfo

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    I cannot say it as eloquently as Bipossible, but he is right. I first accepted the fact I am gay at 43, 20 years into my marriage. The fact finally hit me like a ton of bricks because I was (happily) seduced by another man and had a one night stand. While I regret the infidelity, I do not forget the incident, even if I will never see this man again, as the incident changed the course of my life for the better. I came out to my wife (no kids) immediately and after a month of difficult conversations decided on an open marriage that allowed me to date men. We told no one else in our lives (even our gay friends), as it was not their business. This mostly translated into one night stands, but I did date a few guys and one for 15 months (I always told guys up front about my marital status). Relationships and people are constantly evolving and the open marriage is no longer working for us, as I want more and my wife wants more (i.e. a man who is capable of loving her in a way that I am incapable of doing). So we have recently separated. But for 2.75 years we lived together in a open marriage that worked well for us. Again, that may not be your path, but it is a possible one that it doesn't seem you have thought of yet.
     
  4. Yossarian, Bipossible and iadsfo covered everything that I would have told you. I am 54 and have lived a similar life of constant repression. Never married, but always felt extremely paranoid about how I was "coming off" to others. Did I "swish" too much when I walked? Did anyone notice that hand gesture I just made? Did I look at that cute guy for too long? The monitoring and self-hatred consumed my life until a few years ago. So, I feel at least some of your pain. It sucks, doesn't it?

    I do wish you peace of mind with whatever decision you make. You can always come here and vent or seek advice.
     
  5. Yossarian

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    Thanks to the 3 of you that have responded. I did not drop this thread, I have just been thinking about the responses for a few days. I think bipossible has hit the nail on the thumb when he says that much of my life was guided by fear. I don't think that was a totally unreasonable reaction in the 1950s and 60s to the world I lived in, but yes, it is a barrier to resolution. An equal part of it was the uncertainty caused by the lack of situations that let me "explore" myself fully before committing to a marriage to a woman. It seems that all the timing of events worked against me by chance. That is the "runway behind me" which I can't change or utilize better, and all the hand wringing and "woe is me" moaning will not make a difference now. The real pisser is that I am STILL not sure where I am at wrt where I want to go from here. Yeah, I know that I am turned on when I look at young sexy men, but I am also not stupid enough to think that someone that age would ever be interested in me at my age, and they shouldn't be; doesn't make sense; so if there is no traction on that path, what would be the point in causing all the pain and angst to me and others in trying to go down it?

    I regularly work out in a gym with young and mostly friendly guys, who will talk to me, play racquet sports with me, and I enjoy being around them. But, they are mostly straight (I think and assume from what they say and do) and might distance themselves if they knew what I was thinking when I look at them. Comfortable, but not satisfying; nice, but not intimate; brass ring there, but out of reach. Do I really want to screw this situation up to gain, what? Some possible peace and authenticity inside my head or maybe just regret. I suppose that is the fear thing again talking. "Fear is the mind killer!" as Frank Herbert said in Dune. Because, I don't really know what I authentically AM; I never found out when I should have; it was all "illegal" and "immoral" to even explore back then; still is in some places and to some people. I "think" I am more gay than anything else, and probably always have been, whether I recognized it for what it was or not. But, since I have never tried living with a man, other than my straight roommates years ago, I don't know if that is really the Holy Grail of resolution for me either. The only thing I am sure of is that our screwed-up society should quit pussyfooting around and add "orientation" to the list of civil rights, right up there with race and other things protected by anti-discrimination law, so that no kids today should ever have to deal with the homophobic load of crap I did growing up, and follow it up with early-age education that homosexuality exists, that it is as "normal" as any other at-birth traits that cannot be changed, even if it is not immediately obvious at birth like skin color, or hair color, or race are.

    I am still hoping that someone will reveal a non-obvious suggestion for resolving this dilemma which would spare my family (and me) the constipation of the current situation without the risk of making our futures miserable for our remaining years. I don't have a clue how to proceed other than "just say it" and hope the s**t doesn't hit the fan.
     
  6. Yossarian and bipossible: I think you are both very eloquent writers. I've enjoyed reading your posts.

    Yossarian, I will answer you in some bullet points:

    1) There is a full range of sexual orientations. Back in "our day," all that was acknowledged was "straight" and "fag" (cringe), I know. But today, I seem to regularly meet guys in person, and in this forum, who think of themselves as bisexual or would like to chuck labels altogether. Only you can decide what you are; and there is nothing wrong with your final determination.

    2) I wouldn't close the door on young guys being interested in you. You may not get a stampede; but you may find that 1 or 2 who prefer older men. Some younger guys have become disillusioned by the flakiness and unreliability of their peers, and want to love a "real man."

    3) When/if you ever come out to your wife, there is always the option of open marriage (as Iadsfo mentioned). Who knows, maybe she has suspected your orientation all along, and has already been considering options on her own for when "the day" finally comes. It seems like you and she are already living as sort of platonic roommates anyway.


    I realize I don't have any profound answers for you. Hopefully with more soul-searching, you will have a better epiphany for yourself and your life's direction. Best of luck.
     
  7. great post. i think that you have to look at some things. let's vet the divorce thing:

    1. you tell your wife you're gay and you want "out" or you want to be in an open marriage where you can be gay and explore your gayness and still live in teh same household. even though you are no longer having sex for 15 years with her, i doubt seriously she is going to be ok with you going out and being gay while still living in teh same roof as a married couple. that would not be fair to her and it honestly wouldn't be fair to yourself. even that would eventually unravel the whole relationship even if you could manage to do it for a few years. so that means you would have to come out and then request a divorce. so now what? like you said, your finances are tied into this marriage and if you live in california, doesn't the wife have access to 1/2 of everything or could take you for everything? im not certain on teh rules regarding this but if she is bitter about the breakup, you could be out on your gay keester penniless during a time in your life when you need all the money saved that you can get. also as we get older health concerns start to come up and let's face it, can you honestly say you can rely on the gay dating scene to be there for you if you need someone to help you if you have a medical condition.....um, not likely. then that leaves you really three options:

    1. become a secretive closeted type that is living a double life and dating men on the side unbeknownest to your wife......Dont recommend this. its unfair to your wife and to yourself.

    2. stay with the wife, supress the gay feelings and accept that this is where you are and try and find enjoyment in other untapped areas of your life and retirement.

    3. come out, divorce wife or separate, and separate into different living quarters....you already said you can't afford to do this. you can try and get into dating, but even in mid 30s it's hard and you're "too old" at this age for many people. however, i think there are likely more options for you than you may think at your age because if they have gotten this far and still single by this age of 60 plus, they are looking for something more meaningful than just a quick shag. i am just concerned that not only your life but the life of your wife who will be out on her own in a time when you really need to heavily rely on someone in your later years, we'll that would be a lot to deal with. but you have to be true to yourself.

    ---------- Post added 19th Sep 2013 at 12:29 PM ----------

    i suspect that the wife knows about your orientation. it sounds like to me, she was getting older and didn't want to be alone anymore. you came alone and were nubile and friendly and she set her sights in on your and forced your hand at marriage to accomplish what she wanted while at least having some suspicion or clue that this 40 year old man that had never had sex before had to also be somewhat sexually ambivilant or possibly bi/gay. the fact that you've not had sex in 15 years and its not a big deal to anyone in the relationship is a clear sign that she already knows or suspects but this works for her and she doesn't care as it seems she loves you and the readymade family life you were able to provide. i doubt any of this will come as a shock to her whether she lets on or not.

    as far as younger people being interested in you, yes, this could happen but also be warned that many instances of this are from people that have "daddy issues" and want you to be their sugar daddy and will drain every bit of money or financial resources from you that they can get their grubby little hands on. usually these types of people have ZERO going for theirselves and will sucker you in with some "damsel in distress" hard knock story. they are keenly aware you are new to the gayness and will use that against you by offering you attention (both seemingly emotional and physical) while all the while having their grubbie little paws out for money, clothes, housing or something they cannot afford on their own. since they know that you may find them attractive and you will get sucked in by their looks, they will have you right where they want you. you would be a prime target for this sort of scam. once the resources are gone or they grow tired of you, they're also gone. stick with people no more than 10 years younger than you.
     
  8. now that you clarified that you're into younger guys at the gym, this tells me all i need to know. it doesnt sound like you are looking for some fantasy romantic emotional connection with a guy your own age, it soundsl like you find these guys hot and want to shag them where the son dont shine. nothing wrong with that but the desire is coming from lust. we're human, we all have it. but do you want to ruin your relationship with your wife over a hot and dirty gym shag? think about it like this. what you would tell your best straight guy friend if he said, "hey bob, my wife and i have been together for years, she in menopause now and we're not even having sex for years now and when i go to the gym, i see all these hot 20 something women with gorgeous bodies that i want to shag. thing are pretty boring with my wife, do you think i shoudl divorce her and start dating these women at the gym?" to me it sounds like, you want to explore yourself sexually and hookup with 20 something year old guys with nice bodies. I'm going to give it to you straight. a 20 somethign year old attractive guy with with a nice body is not going to hookup with you "for free". he is going to want something in return. You are post 60 and like i mentioned earlier anything post 35 is elderly to these guys. Sure, you may find that 1 guy in the hackstack that wants something meaningful but if he looks like he can have anyone based on his looks/body, the odds are not in your favor given your age and unclassified body and looks, that he is going to want you for heart and maturity. he is going to be willing to get physical with you only with it in mind that he is going to get somethign in return. i know people will say im wrong and this and that and that i'm gneralizing but see for yoruself.
     
  9. Yossarian

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    Thank you for your observations Justwondering. Just to clarify, as I tried to indicate, I would be crazy to think that any of these studly looking kids would be interested in me sexually at my age, even though they seem to enjoy playing sports with me at the gym; I mention them only to indicate that my reaction to their appearance indicates a GAY orientation rather than a BISEXUAL one; pictures of pretty girls or same in the flesh does nothing for me physically; no sparks, no boners, no nothing; but when I see a lean muscular chest full of countable abs, maybe with a little hair for accent in the right places, my pulse goes up and I have to look away so that is the only thing that goes up. (!)

    I am under no delusion that even the one or two of these guys that might turn out to be gay each year, would be interested in me. At this point in my life, my interest IS more in an emotional connection, maybe an understanding "great friend with or without heavy-duty benefits", who I could spend time with, work out with, play sports with, put my arm over his shoulder, and talk with openly, like we are doing here, to explore whether I COULD even find someone I match up with at this late age. To be honest and open, I am a very active guy with angst and frustration, but not depression, not sitting with a drink in my hand bemoaning my fate in some dark bar. I ride my bikes several hundred miles a week, play racquetball 6-7 hours a week at the gym with these kids and do a multi-hour workout twice a week. IF you look at what I DO instead of my 67 y.o. face, I am a lot more like these 20 year olds than I am like most men my age. I can drop most of the kids like a bad habit on a long bike ride. LOL

    Who I would like to find is someone with active interests like mine, a body still in good shape and well maintained, who likes to "do stuff", instead of sitting around watching Wheel of Fortune with a drink and cigarette in his hand. These kind of people are apparently very scarce past 50 y.o., and when you throw in "gay" on top of that, in a college town of 100,000 people the list size may be approaching zero; OK, one, if you count me. Finding them, if they aren't trying hard to find you also, seems unlikely. Maybe in SFO or LA or one or two such places; around here, I don't know how to begin other than one of the online "dating" sites, and they are understandably oriented to singles free to date, not married men like me. Or even worse, the craigslist meat market, which seems unlikely to yield any relationship quality results based on my monitoring it for the last year and trying to contact a few people on it who posted non-sexually intensive ads.

    Whether actually finding someone would lead to a conclusion that it is time to try to deconstruct/reconstruct my marriage in some way that would be fair to my wife is a second-order question. Without some indication that this is the right thing to do for both of us, causing damage to her preemptively, while fully "honest", seems pointless, even though, yes, we are living more as housemates tied together financially now, rather than as a "couple". I guess this means I don't want anything to hit the fan pointlessly and splatter both of us. I do NOT know how she would react to an "I'm Gay" announcement, whether it would be rational or, irrational out of hurt and/or anger. People are unpredictable when emotion rather than reason takes over. I, on the other hand, can look at this long-evolving situation in detail and logically, but still not know what should be done, if anything.

    What I have done is begin to visit the local LGBT center to offer my assistance in their operation, to try to meet more known gay people; this is not inconsistent with my publicly outspoken position about gay civil rights issues and the right to marry. It isn't that easy to meet many people in that setting either; there are never more than a dozen or so people who show up for the various events. So far, none of them have asked me to label myself, so I am running under the radar, or gaydar, there. There are a few churches that cater to gays here, but I am not interested in organized religious activities and don't want to be hypocritical about using them for "hookups" (in the social, not sexual sense of hooking up) or meet someone who is seriously into religion, since I am not. I do not drink or smoke, so bars are not a place I want to hang out either and it would undoubtably lead to questions about what the heck I am doing coming home smelling like cigarettes. What does that leave? I don't know. Any ideas? You can begin to see why I have been stuck in the same limbo situation for so long now, right?
     
  10. thank you for clarifying. this helps. it comes from an honest place. but i too share your thoughts. as for me i found myself attracted to both women and men. it got confusing. it felt wrong. although i was in a healthy relationship with women, at some point i wanted to explore the other side to see if that was really what i wanted. after a relationship ended, i started the exploration. i wasn't married and had no kids so i felt, ok, this is great. for me, i did not want to define myself as "gay" becuase that didn't seem to fit, and i wasn't sure if i was "bi" becuase that didn't seem to fit. i had not had any sexual experiences with guys. what i was wishing and hoping for was to meet a guy that i was attracted to that wanted to hang out as platonic friends that was also gay and shared the same interest. essentially i wanted a friend, but i wanted some unsaid sparks to be there as well but no action. i wanted to see if i could feel emotionally connected to guys that also had the same attraction and if they could feel emotionally connected to me. i thought that if i was able to feel that "connection" then it would make it easier for me to define myself, and thereby decide what my future would hold relationship wise...would i puruse women or men for a long term traditional "marriage" relationship. well i can tell you that they exploration has left me very disappointed and discouraged because i thought it would be easy to find someone else that wanted the same thing and to take things slow and simply get to know you. however, what i found were people that always seemed to have major issues, not independt in terms of being able to provide for themselves, problems, drama, drug abuse and the list goes on. no one seemed interested in just getting to know "me". it was more about getting me in their pants or trying to get in mine and frustration when that did not occur. so that idealized attractive guy that had a job, that worked, that was a "nice guy next door type" that just want a friend", well that did not ever happen. sure you do not need to be attracted to someone to want just a friendship but for me, i wanted to have a connection with someone i WAS ATTRACTED and was attracted to me back to in order for me to determine if this was worthwhile. Now in my late 30s i wonder where the years have gone. still single, still alone, and the idea of actually meeting anyone remotely with something going for themselves is not even something i get my hopes up for anymore. yes, people will tell you this is one-sided adn that there are tons of great guys around, but the reality is being attracted to the same sex puts you at a great disadvantage. You have no idea who is or who is not gay. AS you already mentioned going to the LGBT events doesnt seem to yield the type of people you're into and when you see someone at the grocerty store or gym or wherever, there's no way for you to know if he is gay or not. so it's all a catch 22. i wish i coudl be more positive but even in my 30s i feel as though i have "aged out" of the gay prime picking ages and have been told or "you're nice but i'm not looking for anyone your age" by people my OWN AGE. so what are your options. i wish i had somewhere to steer you. what i can tell you is that dont listen to all the people saying "i wish i could find someone special", they're lying. what they really mean is: I WANT SOMEONE HOT THAT IS GOOD IN BED AND IF THEY TURN OUT TO BE A NICE GUY THAT I CAN GET CONSTANT GOOD SEX FROM ON THE DAILY, THEN THAT'S EVEN BETTER, IF NOT, I'LL STILL TAKE THE SEX". so this is why they are still single and likely very attractive. You will find that people will say they want someone that is real and that is not into the drama or that treats then right, and when you try and treat them well, they will consider you lame or boring or that you do no have enough bad boy. remember, many people are hopped up on idealized sexualized fantasies and are looking for someone to fulfill their dream fantasy guy and usually that is a bit of a bad boy type. i could be wrong. possibly there is a great gay dating site for seniors. who knows. the only suggestion i offer you is to see things for what they really are and that if you're seeking normal connection and emotional security from the gay dating scene, put on your armour as it can be a ruff ride. however, i think if you want to date someone your own age, you may have a better chance of meeting someone that has by 60 years old or up, grown tired of the games, who may not have much of a libido left so they are not trying to screw everything that walks, and hopefully they are also financially independent by that time and would be more of a match for you. I have seen older men staring at me at the gym but they tend to look at young guys (30 years younder or more, so I dont know if older guys like older guys. anyways, good luck.
     
  11. Californiacoast

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    I hear ya loud and clear. Maybe it is a time for self discovery and reflection. Hopefully a good therapist could help you work through some of those early homophobic messages. I suggest the book, "Farm Boys" by Will Fellows. In it he interviews hundreds of gay men who grew up in rural area born between 1919 and 1967. I think you will find kindred spirits. I disagree with some here about younger guys not being attracted. They are out there and not always with bad motives. We may all grieve the gay youth we never had, but we can certainly enjoy the gay future that self discovery and change affords.
     
  12. Yossarian

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    I went to my first "party" this weekend. I have joined a group affiliated with the local LGBT center as a "social group". I did this a few months ago, but due to an error by their email list guru, was not put on their email list, so was not getting the announcements and thought they weren't doing anything. I stumbled across the event announcement by accident on a calendar, so I decided to go and see if anyone showed up for these things. When I arrived at 3PM, there were about 10 people there, but by the time the potluck dinnertime arrived, there were more like 30 people present, all male, all gay, from age mid 30s to my own. It was held at a weekend lake house owned by a group member. The house was older and recently purchased, with a pier, boathouse with deck out on the water, and a screened lanai, which he has been working on for several months. Usual story around here, older smaller houses built years ago on the best lots before building restrictions made it hard to build near a lake shore or install a private boat house out into the water on less desirable lots. Good pick.

    Several people were in the water, most were watching a local college football game in the house. I was free to wander around and talk to different people to get a feel (figuratively not literally) about who they are and what they do. I found a very wide range of people and interests, no stereotypes or flamboyants, just ordinary guys you might find at any football game party, only everyone was male and apparently gay. I did not feel out of place, even though I was concerned that I would if anyone asked questions about my being married or single. I was surprised that many of the older guys talked about their adult kids. What? Gay men with kids? Like me? Maybe I am not that weird after all. Most of the ones I talk to are now single, but they seem to be getting along somehow, with or without male partners or wives. Food for thought.

    The host of the event is single, but he has a good friend who has been coming out on weekends and staying with him and helping him work on the house, and today is helping him host the party, bringing people drinks to people out on the pier, hugging and sometimes kissing new arrivals he apparently knows, and doing a good job of making everyone feel welcome while the host cooks on the grill. There is some drinking going on, but nobody is getting obviously drunk or crazy or stripping down to anything less than swimsuits. I am enjoying myself and glad that I came.

    Although the group subsidizes these monthly events for the host with some money collected as annual dues of $25, everyone has brought a side dish, desert, or drinks to provide additional variety to the BBQ ribs and chicken the host is preparing on a large grill while we mill around and talk, watch the FB game, or swim in the lake. When dinner is served, it is delicious, with plenty of different dishes to sample, and pop, beer, wine, or mixed drinks available to go with the meal. Since this is my first of these events, I don't know if this is typical of them, or if the venue is helping the turnout or the party atmosphere atypically, but right now I don't care.

    As the evening continues after dinner and people drift away, the group dwindles down to 10 or so people again, standing around talking to each other. The alternate host, in his swimsuit, has been keeping up with the drinks he has been serving and moves around the room hugging people, kissing a few of them, and peeking into a few swimsuits playfully to see what's there; nobody seems to mind, and I don't either. He gives me a big hug and says "you have a really firm body" and plants a scratchy kiss on my cheek. I guess so, I ride my road bike around 200 miles a week, so there isn't a whole lot of fat left. I hug him back and it feels good; oh, my. I talk a bit with a guy who says he is in his late 30s, but looks more like late 20s to me, who says his chest started getting furry when he was 12 years old, which was when he first began to suspect that he might be gay; some people had it simpler than me. I suppose that he is technically a "bear", but he has trimmed himself down to a nice ###### that give a swarthy look to his chest which complements his appearance. He doesn't seem to mind when the alternate host is rubbing his chest and plants a big kiss on his mouth very casually. I instinctively like them both, and that they freely complement and touch each other without the usual male hangups that limit one to meaningless formal handshakes.

    Since I have to reluctantly leave at around 9PM, due to needing to get up at 5AM on Sunday for an early bike ride I organized, I say my goodbyes, and the alt host says he will walk me out to my car, which he does. When we get there, he gives me another tight lingering hug, then plants a big long kiss right on my mouth; the first time I have ever been kissed by a man on the mouth. It feels good and I don't want to let go, but I have to; miles to go before I sleep. I am so glad I came to this party. These are the kind of welcoming friendly people I have been wanting to meet, and now I have. I hope every party each month is as good as this one was. I have finally met people I can relax around and not have to filter everything I say as I speak. The longest journey begins with a single step. This was a good one. :icon_bigg
     
  13. Wow, congratulations on what seems like a very eye-opening experience for you. It brought back memories of my own gay "debut." You will always remember that first male kiss! :slight_smile:
     
  14. Lindsay11

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    Yosarrian, I applaud your lucid and articulate posts and responses. I am in a very similar position, 60 years old, married to a woman I love like a sister, haven't had sex with her for nearly 20 years and living in South America. There is no one here to talk to, so I have come to Empty Closets for advice and to see how other people are dealing with their issues. I have come close to suicide twice in the last year because I cannot come out without losing everything. I admire your courage and eloquence.
     
  15. Spaceman

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    Thanks Yossarian for sharing your story about the party and congratulations on taking another step forward to living your truth. I think we all dream of living in a world where we can be ourselves and be accepted for who we are, and it sounds like you found it with those men on that night. It must feel great and I'm glad to know you had such a wonderful experience.
     
  16. Yossarian

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    Senior Discount: Yes, it was an "eye opening experience" in the sense that I was sort of anticipating the possibility, but not really prepared for it enough to concentrate on it emotionally. I thought about it while driving home, and am still thinking about it as I write this. What I am trying to say is, that I was there but not altogether there and fully participating, because I wasn't fully emotionally engaged; I was kissed, but *I* didn't kiss him from an emotional viewpoint. I sort of let it happen TO me. As I am thinking about it now, as a event, it probably isn't as significant as something else that happened to me about a year ago, which I may talk about later. It was more a sample of what it feels like physically to kiss a man instead of a woman. It just wasn't a situation to take any further at the time, but in the context of when it happened, it didn't feel awkward or kinky or "wrong"; I guess I am relieved to know that.

    Lindsay11: Please don't think about suicide as a solution, for you or anyone else's problems. I recall a friend of mine who was robbed at gunpoint on the street in Washington DC. What he told me was "Suddenly, I realized that all I really had was my life, and it was all I really wanted." You will find your solution if you seek it, and when you do, if it really IS a solution, it will be one in which you will not lose everything, and gain the the rest of your life to live as the authentic you. Good luck to you as you search.

    Spaceman: I am getting much more here than I am giving back for now; thank you for your encouragement.

    Now, I wonder if I am really "out" to some of these people at the party. Are you out when you casually ACT like you are out by attending a meeting of gay men, or do you have to say those "three little words"? Are you out to that person when you passively let someone kiss you on the mouth? Or, are you only out if you tell someone who really matters to you "I am gay", who thinks of you as "straight"? When in the process do you officially acquire the "Gay" label? I don't feel there yet; it's more like I am still questioning the intensity and importance of my emotions, after living as "straight" for so long. It seems like a standard label is not going to work for me at this stage; I am still a "work in progress", as a friend of me likes to call unfinished projects. :confused:

    ---------- Post added 26th Sep 2013 at 12:41 AM ----------

    Justwondering: I want to relate something that happened to me which will take longer than I have time to spend writing right at this moment, but I will do it as soon as I can. Thank you for your detailed replies about your search for Mr Right, which gave me food for thought about what happened.
     
  17. Electra

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    Yossarian and all of you responding to this post - I have really enjoyed reading your articulate and thoughtful discussions. As ever with EC it helps me move my own inner debates on a bit more. It is interesting how your first post seemed to be saying you were well and truly in the closet and yet actually you seem to have been taking many small steps to at last be your more authentic self. Amazing. In my own experience coming out (two years ago - aged 48) was not one big event, but loads of smaller ones - some easy - some harder - and constantly not losing face in having started on a new journey - and pushing myself in tiny ways (eg to make myself go to events with only gay men at and find out that the sky didn't fall in!!). Reading the posts, I wonder if sometimes we spend too much wondering what if .... coming up with loads of scenarios and outcomes. I am thinking in particular about telling your wife. May be the only decision is to tell her - with no preconceived expectations. You are not telling her because you want to run off with younger guys or any guys? Your are telling her because she is a huge part of your life and you want to be true to yourself. It could be painful, it could be fine, it could lead to a million different outcomes, but all the time you try to second guess (and fear?) those outcomes you have not told her, you have not been true to her, time is passing. Tell her and then just see what happens....????
     
  18. Yossarian

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    Electra: To everyone that really matters in my life, other than myself, I am in the closet. In my head I am not. Here is where everything gets murky. I think of Orientation like the color controls on a TV set. You have a Hue control which ranges from green intensity on one end and red on the other, and you have a Saturation control which ranges from Black&White on one end and dramatically intense colors on the other. If green is Gay and red is Straight, then a person can be anywhere along this curve in terms of how they respond physically and mentally to the same or opposite sex. Think of it as which sex you are attracted to; a truly Bi person would be near the center, attracted to both sexes. However, we also have the Saturation control, adjusting how intensely strong/I] your sexual attractions are. You can be attracted to either or both sexes, but not so intensely that there is a feeling of urgency about expressing your drive to pair up and be with someone individually.

    Some people get wrapped up in their work; others (like me) don't really experience strong sexual attractions that drive them to constantly look for dates and act out their sexual urges. There is a large range of "normal" levels of free testosterone in people, and that hormone, to a large extent, determines how "horny" we are at whatever age we are. When you cross factor these two "controls" together, it is quite possible to have the unverified feeling that you favor one or the other sex as partners, but simply lack the intensity of feeling to drive you to experiment and try and confirm which of your feelings better specify your Orientation. Now, throw in an environment where experimentation on the Gay end of the spectrum might get you beat-up, dishonorably discharged, ostracized, unemployed, and dead (from untreatable HIV at the time), and you can hear the latch clicking on the closet door. You never do the exploration that is normal and appropriate for your youthful age and find yourself 40 years old with the experience level of a teenager. Then someone comes along, maybe not the "right" match for your unknown orientation, offering "normality", the chance for a family and kid(s), and love for the "you" you are presenting externally, and you grab that brass ring. That is sort of what happened to me. I must BE normal if I am ACTING normal, where normal = fitting in with everyone else's expectations and operating rules.

    Only problem with this picture is that if society considers straight to equal normal, then you aren't normal inside, even if the color looks right on the outside. You aren't really functioning properly, you just appear to be to the casual observer. It is all just a manageable facade you are presenting, and it can go on for YEARS if your internal Saturation control is set by nature at a low intensity. To be honest, I don't know why I have waited so long to deal with this quandary, other than to say that "other shit happened" and time goes by quickly when you are dealing with it day to day, and this stuff is seemingly compartmentalized and placeable on the back burner for now. As they say, life is what happens while you are deciding what you want to be when you grow up. What triggered me to switch this issue to the front burner is A) most of the other stuff has been taken care of, and B) something happened about a year ago that changed my priorities. I will talk about that in a separate post, somewhat responding to what Justwondering said.

    Before I "just tell her", I have to really figure out what I am going to tell her, and that is what I am trying to do now, in the awkward context of my "straight" persona and all the baggage and side effects that have resulted from it. I think I have to spend some time "hanging around" multiple gay men to confirm where I really am right now, in the rather lean social contexts available to men of my age and still married; if you think figuring this out as a teen is difficult, then, my friend, "You ain't seen nothin' yet". But, I am trying. I really want to get this right this time, and find the path to best result for both of us, not the path of least resistance; I certainly owe her that. I am going to another minor social event on Friday, which will give me some more opportunities to talk to a few more gay men in a casual setting, maybe not in depth, but every little bit helps. I will report if anything of significance happens.
     
  19. Yossarian

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    Justwondering: Here is my story of Jimmy (not his real name), the guy who happened to me about a year ago, and changed my priorities. Let me begin by saying that I have always enjoyed looking at lean muscular male bodies, particularly ones who have that very "male" look to their faces, narrow hips, wide shoulders. The ones you see in pictures, but rarely in the "real world". I envy their good fortune. I am more of the thin, but not fat, variety, within the range of normal, and in very good cardiovascular shape for my age, but not that well defined lean look, no matter how hard I work out. All my life I have considered myself not in the same league as these "lucky ones", unable to attract such people to me simply by my appearance.

    About a year ago, while I was at the gym, I saw a "new guy". I am always on the lookout for new guys to play racquetball with me (there is a large turnover of students at the college gym I use) so I tend to ask anyone who looks to be in decent shape if they would like to play or learn to play. Jimmy is about the same height and weight as me, about 150 pounds, and similarly built, and seems to be coming to the gym regularly for a few weeks, so he is a good candidate to train and play with. I ask him if he would like to play and he says "yes". A lot of the kids say yes, then you never see them again, but the next time I see Jimmy he is ready to play, so I teach him the general rules and we start playing 3-4 times a week. I really enjoy playing RB with him; he learns fast and plays well, but most importantly, he never gets upset if he misses a ball, is constantly smiling and laughing at goofy mistakes we both make, and consistently shows up when he says he will, all good stuff when you are used to the sometimes flaky behavior of 20 year old kids; Jimmy is 31 and in his last year of school, so he is more mature than the average kid. I assume he is straight, as almost all of the gym kids are, which is fine with me.

    It is customary for him to shower after we play, since he has afternoon classes to attend after him gym time. Sometimes I do also, depending on my own plans. Unlike many of the other kids, who seem to be very modest and nervous about undressing in the locker room, Jimmy seems to casually undress in front of me while we talk and change clothes or prepare to shower in the large "room" type of group showers typical of high school or college gyms. It doesn't seem to bother him to shower together, which is a relief from the usual subtle tension in the shower room. I can't help but notice how similarly we are built despite the large difference in our ages; on one occasion, he has forgotten to bring his gym shorts, so I loan him an old spare size 30 I keep in the locker, and they fit him perfectly also. I quit using them on the street because the pockets had worn holes in the bottom. Jimmy says that he will wash them and bring them back to me; when he does, the holes in the pockets have been mended and they have been ironed flat. Hmmm. I didn't expect that, but I like it.

    After playing RB with him for about a month, there is an outdoor event in a beach town about 100 miles away which I want to go to. I try to round up several guys with similar interests to drive over with me and spend the day there; Jimmy says he would like to go, as do several others, but when the day comes, only Jimmy is able to go as the others flake out. I pick him up at dawn and we set out for the several hour drive.

    While we are driving over, we are talking and at some point we start talking about the gay marriage issue, which is something happening in current events at the time. I mention that I think the current laws are a travesty, and that people should be able to marry anyone they want without interference from the government. At this point he says "I am gay, and I don't think it is fair that I wouldn't be able to get married if I found the right guy." Color me surprised, and grasping for words; I didn't know. I asked him if he was "out", as I didn't want to inadvertently say anything later if he wasn't, and accidentally out him. He says, that he doesn't broadcast that he is out, but he doesn't hide it either; I make a mental note to respect his privacy when at the gym, so that it is his choice who to tell whom he wants to; as far as I know from their behavior, everyone else assumes he is straight also.

    I have brought drinks in the car for lunch; he has made homemade bread and tuna salad for sandwiches. We eat this before setting out to spend the day looking at motorcycles and bikers. Occasionally we talk about "gay issues", but mostly we talk about motorcycles we are seeing. I enjoy being with him as we casually wander around the town on foot, people watching, in this non-gym setting. Just two guys enjoying doing something different. The next time I go to the gym, he has brought me a piece of cake that he made; the following time, I bring him a loaf of bread made in the bread machine, since I know he likes fresh bread. We continue to enjoy playing at the gym together for the next couple of months as his graduation date approaches.

    I don't know what is going on in his head, but all these gestures of friendship, quite unlike the other gym jocks I usually play with, are starting me to fantasize things in my head. We horseplay in the locker room, and as we play RB. He hugs me when we meet in the locker room or gym; trust me, that is not normal in this particular college gym. He knows I am married, I know he is gay. Oil and water? or Oil and vinegar? I start thinking about things I have pushed into the background for years. What is he thinking? Could he possibly be interested in me as more than a gym partner? Is he sending me some kind of signals that I am too inexperienced to recognize, or is this just the kind of stuff that "gay guys" do with everyone? Should I ask him and look like a fool if the answer is no, possibly upsetting this "relationship" that may or not be occurring, or just enjoy the moment and not upset the applecart. In spite of my own common sense and the difference in our ages, I think I am falling in love with this guy, which is blowing my mind. I have never felt this way about anyone before. Holy crap, what is going on here?

    Graduation is a week away for him; I know that he is going to move to another town nearby for at least six months, then he says he is moving back here to go for another degree. He buys a condo in that town to live in and remodel while he is there, and says he will turn it into a rental when he comes back here. This place is an hour away by car, so close I could ride my bicycle there and visit him. Everything seems to be falling in place. We like the same things, enjoy each other's company, and maybe could find other things we would enjoy doing together. I tell him that I would be happy to come and help him work on the condo on weekends if he wants me to.

    Meanwhile, inside my head, wheels are spinning. Is there something gong on here, or am I letting my long-starved imagination run away with me. I start imagining living with him; what it would be like to cuddle together on the couch and watch movies together; to fix meals together; to go on picnics and trips together; ride motorcycles together. To start my life over with him, the way I was intended to live. To adopt a child, or have one via surrogate with his sperm, to raise a son together, with him as the Dad and me as a sort of granpa dad who would stay at home (retired) during the day with the child, while he goes to work. It could work. In my condition I might easily live another 20 to 30 years together with him. CRAZY thoughts like this, but bear with me; I have been bottled up for a long time.

    He is very busy the last week of school, working part time, and trying to finish all his courses and exams, so I don't get to see him at the gym. I feel an extreme urgency to find out where this situation might be going before he has to move, but I don't want to push him while he is under the stress of finishing up his last semester. SO, I write a carefully detailed letter to explain how I feel about him, nothing held back, all in. I can't seem to find him on campus, so I send the long letter to him as an email. A day goes by with no response; then I get a short emailed reply. In essence he says "You probably need to find someone who feels the same way about you that you feel about me, but it is not me."

    I have never seen him again. Logic wins over emotion. I knew logically that this was probably not going to work out. My entanglements that would have to be resolved. Our difference in ages. His own desires and plans which, I guess, never included me other than as a nice older man to play racquetball with until he graduated. All the fantasies were in my head, not his. I had misread signals that were never being sent, and jumped to conclusions that were unwarranted. A carrot that cannot be reached.

    So when you (Justwondering) tell me how difficult it would be to find a "soulmate" at my age, brother I know. I really know. I found one, but he didn't. Closet door slams shut; lock clicks again. In the closet, a sad old man is crying; he is me.
     
  20. BiDad3

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    Yossarian I am truly moved by your last post and can think of nothing else to say but: you are an inspiring, eloquent and thoughtful man that deserves so much better. God bless you!