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Why are we gay?

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by Spaceman, Sep 28, 2013.

  1. Spaceman

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    Yes, we were born this way, but why? Given the obvious evolutionary disadvantage of homosexuality, why does it continue to exist in the human population?

    My fellow gay dads and moms are passing down our genes, but the percentage of gays who procreate must be tiny compared to that of the straight population.

    Seems like there are plenty of theories but no conclusive answers. What do you think?
     
  2. greatwhale

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    To be honest, there are easier questions...:stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    I don't think, however, that the evolutionary disadvantages are so obvious.

    Although we accept that it's who we are from birth and that gays generally do not procreate (although, given the number of closeted LGBT folk who do, it's difficult to know for sure), we would also need to accept that it's passed down genetically: I don't know of any research that demonstrates that conclusively.

    Estimates range from 5 to 15% of the population is LGBT...if it isn't passed down genetically, and it doesn't seem to be restricted to any ethnic identity, and it seems to happen rather frequently in the animal kingdom, then: why indeed?

    I'm content to live with the question than jump to conclusions or seek out supporting evidence for any pet theories...
     
  3. Blackie

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    Nobody really knows why people are gay, there's plenty of different ideas from scientists but none of them are sure.

    If it is genetic though then it's most certainly not something passed down from your family, rather it would be a result of a mutation so what you're saying about less gay people procreating wouldn't matter.
     
  4. newfish

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    I don't think its just a pair of gay/straight alleles or anything like that, but a combination of people's genetics. So I believe gay people are no more likely to have gay children than straight people, it just sort of depends on a lot of factors in a person.
     
  5. Steve712

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    Evolution happens in populations, not individuals. It is misleading to judge the advantage of particular traits by looking at an individual's benefit from it. Siblings of homosexual animals (humans and other species) tend to be more fertile than others, for instance.

    ---------- Post added 28th Sep 2013 at 03:45 PM ----------

    However, it's important to understand that there is no answer to the question you've asked. Homosexuality isn't meant for increasing a population's genetic fitness, so there is no reason why people are gay in the teleological sense. Natural selection is merely a process that determines whether a trait survives. So, if a trait is prevalent, it isn't disadvantageous.
     
  6. Lexington

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    One theory is that homosexuality is nature's way of putting the brakes on an out-of-control population. We certainly have managed the whole "be fruitful and multiply" thing well enough, but now there's a danger that there'll be too many of us. So perhaps natural selection is choosing homosexuality to keep us from getting too fertile.

    My short answer when asked "Why are we gay?" is usually "Because we're lucky." I'll stand by that answer.

    Lex
     
  7. enigmeow

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    bisexuality has a lot of advantages to the tribe. It allows for sexual release without upsetting the alpha-male hierarchy. It also allows for sexual release in situations where the opposite gender just is not available (military, prison, hunting)..

    Look how quickly all the men in a prison revert to bisexual behavior. Without the ability to do this, they would literally go crazy with sexual frustration.

    Now, I also believe that everybody is "capable" of having sex with both genders. They might not like it but they are able to do it. This is why we have so many gay fathers who come out later in life. Obviously, they were able to go through the motions to have those kids in the first place.

    Given that, it is obvious to me that there is no genetic pressure to eliminate our abilities to have sex with the same gender.. In fact, the exact reverse is possible
     
  8. bipossible

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    I am going to go way out on a limb and propose that in reality there is no such thing as gay or straight. What there is, is homophobia. It is the existence of homophobia that has brought about the two extremes of the sexual continuum — gay and straight — and it is homophobia that attempts to force us to choose a camp in which to inhabit. It is my belief that what exists are sexual beings with biological and social constructs that inform attraction and preference. Just like there are no two snowflakes alike, there are no two sexual beings alike. We all have our urges, inclinations, desires, and preferences. It is easy (and dare I say lazy) for us to want to lump everyone into a one of a few predefined boxes and call it a day — labeling has a tendency to do that.

    I also do not believe that sexuality is a static things. Like everything else it changes, transforms, and is impermanent. When we cling too tightly to definitions — either about ourselves or others —*is when we bring about disharmony for ourselves, particularly when someone or even ourselves does not neatly align with the internal narrative we have constructed.

    Rather than seeking out "meaning" or "purpose" for the way we are sexually, why don't we celebrate the wonderful diversity and expression of our sexual selves?
     
  9. bigeagle

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    Nice comments bipossible. After 'coming out' to my wife, sister and best friend last week... for the past few days I've been feeling 'straight' and noticing some very cute women etc. It's a confusing time but I'm trying to just notice and accept my feelings, rather than over analyse and worry. I'm sure things will shift again soon. I do think I have internalised homophobia and this will not break down without exploring and understanding. I guess I will let things settle for a while and speak with my therapist next week.
     
  10. kirsho

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    Not everything that nature does is advantageous at least to our perceptions...there is diabetes....and many many..other genetic abnormalities that are not that great..we can try to work with it...or treat it...or settle for it...or pretend its special. Being gay I think is the 'we are special'...while most try to make it sound like its something great and special...its like a deaf person celebrating deafness...at the end of the day..you'd rather people are able to hear...it is better. But what is politically correct these days is to say everyone is the same and everyone is good enough no matter what they do. Except a certain list..they get the you don't deserve to live and that list varies in severity and in categories depending on what human technology offers, and on how we perceive our life as a collective society.

    Being gay is not that much of a disadvantage...you still can function in a lot of things in life...maybe the advantage is being disadvantaged...meaning you won't need as much resources as the better off..thus leaves more for the higher in the 'evolutionary' chain.

    Maybe you don't have the best traits to pass on, but in-case a human crisis happen, you still have the ability to procreate.....sounds dry? well that evolutionary thinking for you.

    Its like a lot of social animals...ants...bees, there is a hierarchy...and for the top to be on top..they need...something to be in the bottom ranks..(no puns).
     
    #10 kirsho, Sep 28, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 28, 2013
  11. PyroSpark

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    Probably this.

    Or just a glitch in the system. No one knows yet.
     
  12. unknown17050

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    I agree with this theory most of all because this theory seems to make the most sense to me. What is the point in the creation of homosexuality as it's flawed (sorry to offend anyone but hear me out) ways of making a person sexually interested the sex they cannot have babies with (naturally) seems more like an evolutionary change that creates boundaries for population control MUCH more than the idea of something happened in the womb that caused the baby to grow homosexual/bisexual/pansexual. To me it sounds like that the idea of that proves that Homosexuality CAN be "fixed" or "altered" in a Gatica type of way. (If you have not seen Gatica, I'd watch it just so you know what I mean by "fixed or altered".)

    Now I am not saying Homosexuality and ect are WRONG by all means No; but I am saying that it is flawed, and that's okay. :slight_smile: Because no one and nothing is perfect and there are much bigger things in humans that are more flawed than homosexuality, do I think it should be changed if that day comes where we could? Hell no!
     
  13. Yossarian

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    A lot of social animals go through the process of selecting the alpha male, who gets breeding privileges with a collected group of females, even though offspring are often fairly quantitatively equal in numbers for both sexes at birth. Homo Sapiens tend to "pair" much more so in comparison to other animals, but "gayness" in males could be a leftover from the alpha male selection process of an earlier precursor ancestor, with the "beta" males given lower orders in the breeding hierarchy, or a way to "bond" with each other through sexuality and affection, for hunting and working together harmoniously to support the survival of the group.

    In females it could be a way of cooperating in the child rearing functions, establishing bonds for mutual care of children or for polygamous living arrangements in small groups.

    Humans are definitely "social" animals, which is one of the reasons our species has propagated so ubiquitously.

    And lets face it, some guys (and girls) are just so "hot", that everybody wants to jump them. :lol:
     
  14. Ridiculous

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    Homosexual couples do often give a higher survival rate to their population, even if they aren't breeding themselves. For example homosexual male swan pairs mate with a female or just steal eggs from other nests, giving the hatchling a greater survival rate as the two males protect it more aggressively than a female/male pair.

    Gay siblings and aunties/uncles can also provide a better support network for the offspring within their family, as they won't be going out and starting their own isolated family. This improves the survival rate of offspring within this original group.

    Exclusive homosexuality exists in several animal species (sheep for example) and none of them can be said to have societies that exert pressure to act in a certain way. There's certainly a strong genetic and/or physiological component to sexual orientation.
     
  15. greatwhale

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    Everyone talks about the sanctity of the family, especially the troglodytes that persecute us, but they are generally talking about the nuclear family: Father, Mother and kids. Ah yes, the nuclear family in its perfect isolation, with grandparents visiting at set (and appropriately limited) times...if said grandparents aren't living on the other side of the continent.

    But the nuclear family is, in fact, a historical aberration, brought about with industrialization, which separated families from their communities. In smaller communities, the adage "it takes a village to raise a child" did indeed apply.

    If that's the case; what a tragedy then that Uncle Bob, or Auntie Jane; who never got married and were shunned for all the rumours...what a tragedy that they were prevented from taking their rightful place in the community as a support for the raising of children and consequently as a support for the future of their communities.
     
  16. CptnBeefheart

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    I wish nature was more strict on the population
     
  17. vamonos

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    I wish that I knew the answer to that.

    I have one sibling, a brother. He's gay and more out than I am. He's very involved in the gay community and even married a man.

    Since we're both gay, there might be a genetic component. Or, it might be related to environment.
     
  18. Lexington

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    This post just reminded me of something I was going to say but didn't.

    Homosexuality is an error in the system only if the whole point of the system is self-propagation. If the only reason humans were put on Planet Earth was to make more humans, then yeah, the homosexuals are automatic failures.

    But guess what? We've evolved beyond mere survival. We're "failures" at humanity in the same way that anybody who can't hunt wooly mammoth are "failures" at humanity. It once was vital - but now, not so much. So I can't breed - big deal. I can work on making other people's lives as great as possible. And speaking bluntly, I'd say improving quality of life for the humans already on the planet is far more necessary now than the creation of yet a few more humans. :slight_smile:

    Lex
     
  19. Yossarian

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    Why do you say you "can't breed"? Many of us have children from marriages, surrogacy, sperm bank donations, or earlier adventures with the opposite sex out of marriage. It seems more appropriate to say that some of us choose NOT to breed. I don't see that as a failure, simply as a lifestyle choice. It doesn't mean we do not contribute to the survival of the species in other manners.
     
  20. Lindsey23

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    I think it is at least partly genetic. A lot of us LGBT do get married and have children. It comes from denial, societies expectations etc...I know a family where the dad came out and one of his two sons came out a few years later. And how many people in deeply conservative families never come out at all? Our numbers may be higher than we think.