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Social Reality vs Politically Correct

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by skiff, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. skiff

    skiff Guest

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    Hi All,

    We all know that coming out is a necessary step for happiness and mental health. We also know society has moved forward but how much of a true shift has occurred and what is the social reality and heartfelt social acceptance versus fad/political correctness?

    What are we up to 13 US States out of 50 allow gay marriage (23%). In many locations a gay couple cannot safely engage in public displays of affection without being aware of circumstance (even in progressive States). Stereotypes regarding gays are still deeply engrained in society (even progressive States). So deeply that family "family" refuse to believe because you don't (name; societal stereotypical belief).

    What percent of societal gay acceptance is real and tangible versus social politically correct empty words and empty actions? "Blah, blah is great but NOT in my backyard" (street, town, State, religion, organization).

    It use to be 0% in the 60's, is it only about 25% in 2014?

    I know my brother DOES NOT want to meet my gay friends.

    Your thoughts? How much social reality vs empty social political correctness?

    Tom
     
    #1 skiff, Feb 6, 2014
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  2. GayDadStr8Marig

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    Tom, you're on a roll this morning! :icon_bigg

    Speaking from my own perspective, looking out my closet window, one of the reasons it has taken me so many years to even think about breaking out comes from my own insecurities and stereotypes of what it means to "be gay".

    I'm Catholic, generally conservative/libertarian socially and economically, fairly reserved personality until something really gets to me, not at all into casual sex/hookups, not into drugs at all, and as much as I enjoy a nice tall cold Sapphire & tonic I don't drink often (but when I do... :icon_wink ). Since that part of "being gay" is never shown in the media, I never really understood how do I fit into the "gay community"?

    Last year when I finally started talking to a friend who is openly gay and lives with his partner in SFCA, he made me realize that none of that has anything to do with "being gay;" all of those things are just different parts of "being me."


    So, moving on to whether the progress made in society is the result of real acceptance or political correctness. I hate to say this, but my gut feeling is most of the progress is in the PC realm. Culturally we're conditioned from early on to want to be accepted, to "fit in" and be "normal". As political advances were made, sometimes by ballot, sometimes by courts, a segment of the population accepted and even embraced the changes as the "good" that they can be.

    Since there was enough acceptance building, even more people that don't really embrace these changes as "good" choose to go along to get along because then they can avoid conflict that would arise by being against change... that would make them "bad" for being against what other people deem "good". This is, I believe, where the PC train got rolling and sometimes speeds up and then slows down. A lot of people are OK with the idea that a person is gay; a lot of people are OK with know someone who is openly gay; but, a lot of people are OK with other people being gay or knowing someone who is gay, as long as it doesn't get into their comfort zone of their everyday life. It's one thing to see "Sean Saves the World" on TV and have a good laugh, it's an entirely different thing to be face-to-face with the gay dad next door mowing the grass or shoveling snow.
     
  3. OGS

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    To be honest I think it's at least 50 percent who really are alright with it--and frankly I think it's actually much higher in a practical sense--mainly in that I don't think people really care what other people do as much as we think or even as much as opinion polls indicate. There are a lot of things that people care enough about to answer an opinion poll one way or another, but don't really care about enough to do anything about. I think a lot of the other 50 percent are people who think they don't know anybody gay and have some negative notions that often don't stand up to application to an actual person standing in front of them.

    I have a fair amount of opportunity to see people assimilate the information that I am gay. I guess I'm someone that if you are a casual or professional acquaintance doesn't seem gay, yet I am also very open. Now don't get me wrong, I don't really talk about sex with casual or professional acquaintances, but I've been with my partner for 16 years and that does come up--and I let it come up. And you can almost see people incorporate the information--it's funny, sometimes people literally cock their heads to the side as they sort of soak it in, there's a pause and then the conversation goes on. Nobody says anything insulting or throws things or spits. And as far as I know I've never had a client stop coming to me for that reason.

    I live in Chicago--and that's hardly Georgia, but it's hardly Amsterdam either. My parents on the other hand live in Utah, not exactly a bastion of acceptance. About 5 years ago they had their 50th wedding anniversary. They threw a huge party and my partner and I attended. There were probably about 150 people there--the vast majority of them Mormon, most of them older and well, it was 5 years ago. My partner and I were introduced around same as my other siblings and the other sons-in-law--everyone was cordial and genuinely happy that we had been able to come all the way from Chicago to help my parents celebrate. There were probably a few of them who had gossipy conversations on the way home about the fact that we were gay--but well, I don't really think that's any of my business.

    The fact of the matter from where I sit is that some people are going to disapprove of me--they're going to disapprove of my clothes, the way I talk, my choice in books or movies, and yeah maybe some of them will disapprove of my sexual orientation. But as long as they are civil about it--and almost all of them are--what they think about me really isn't any of my business.
     
  4. Choirboy

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    I think even empty social political correctness has some value, to be honest with you. It may be an empty gesture among people of a certain age, but as it filters down, it becomes reality to the younger generation. Think of the boom in the past year or two of states accepting gay marriage. That would have been unheard of 20, 10 or even 5 years ago. But I fully expect to see those numbers continue to rise because there is a whole generation of people who have been raised and conditioned by that political correctness to be more accepting of it--and that may have been something of a show to their parents, but it's reality to them.

    My brother was so homophobic/anti-gay in college that he bragged about him and some buddies in his dorm basically forcing a couple gay guys to move. He is still a pretty stiff-necked arch conservative. But when we got together at Christmas, we talked about a few high school friends of his who are still single and he commented that X should "just come out of the closet already", because he had always had girls floating around him but never had any interest whatsoever, and was almost certainly gay. It was spoken grudgingly, but it was honest. He clearly was not entirely approving, but he was accepting of the reality. That's a huge step in the right direction.
     
  5. Yossarian

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    I was around in the 1960s, when black civil rights were codified into law. It has taken about 50 years, 2+ generations, for it to seem normal *to me* to see interracial couples together with racially mixed kids, and I am for all practical purposes a "flaming liberal" on social issues, although I was raised by fairly conservative parents. I am sure it never seemed quite right for my parents and grandparents, although they acknowledged the reality of it and the legality of it.

    We are not yet completely through even the legal process of civil rights for homosexuals and transgenders. I fully expect it will be at least 50 years after that (assuming we stop electing conservative Republicans who cause back-sliding (think about Putin in Russia for example)) before nobody really "notices" when a gay couple walks by hand in hand or kisses on the beach in public as "unusual".

    People are conditioned by the environment they are raised in to see certain things as normal. It isn't genetic, it is learned behavior. You can change the laws which state how people are supposed to ACT, but it is much slower to change the way they FEEL. Young kids are still being negatively influenced by homophobic parents today; they will carry this training forward to some extent, even as they are TAUGHT how they should behave according to the rules of society, and perhaps be less homophobic than their parents when they mature. Maybe 100 years is closer to the time frame when "homophobia" becomes as irrelevant in daily language as "stagecoach". Unfortunately, I won't be around to see it happen.
     
  6. skiff

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    Well said.

    Personally I do not blame democrat/republican (pick a stripe) as politics stopped serving society from the onset of politics. Progressive/conservative is also not to blame in my opinion as open minded people have feet in both camps depending on a particular issue and its emotional/practical arguments.

    I do blame the DOGMA of in-groups requiring blind, unthinking adherence for its members to remain unrejected or simply belong. Dogma and compliance is simply another CLOSET to avoid rejection.

    Rejection and the fear of it being wielded like a weapon is the seat of all human evil.

    Tom

    ---------- Post added 6th Feb 2014 at 09:16 AM ----------

    Keep in mind how the unthinking dogmatic react to a reasoned, irrefutable argument, is it any different than how a closeted gay person unready to come out reacts to reasoned arguments to come out?

    Same thing is going on in my opinion.
     
    #6 skiff, Feb 6, 2014
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  7. GayDadStr8Marig

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    I think I'm on track with your thinking, Tom. Correct me if I'm drilling a hole in your boat. :slight_smile:

    For me, politics is supposed to be about a set of core principles that you've thought about logically in context of objective facts and real-world experience. Sometimes, those principles lead you to uncomfortable positions because they don't "feel" like you're doing the "right" thing (at least based on how media frames a given debate, hence the PC dilemma). Similarly, religious dogma is supposed to be a set of core principles based on timeless articles of a universal truth that does not change over time based on the whims of how people "feel" about their relationships with each other and with God.

    Unfortunately out here in the real world, politics and religion are two of the largest "closets" ever built. Different people attach the same labels to themselves while in reality they disagree more than they agree on political or religious matters. A lot of people pick-and-choose their labels based on what makes them fell "better" about themselves and/or the world they live in, as opposed to objectively looking at the facts.
     
  8. confused mwm

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    Gay is a bigger deal for straights than it is for us. Other than having an attraction and preference for intimate relationships with other men, I do everything the same way as everyone else. I drive my car on the right side of the road. I wash my face before I wash my butt in the shower. I eat breakfast, lunch and dinner and snack in between.

    The media is largely to blame. If a celeb or someone famous says they're gay, it's front page news. They act like they're doing gays a favor -- he's one of us! -- but in reality their reporting is grounded in nothing more than the institutionalized homophobia we've all grown up with. Until our sexual orientation garners about as much interest as when we mow our lawns, we will not have gained parity with straights. No one writes about anyone who's openly straight.
     
  9. Clay

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    Well I actually have a different perspective, though I know I can't speak for the US exactly here (Britain isn't very religious and is far more "liberal") but I'd actually say Western society as a whole is more accepting.

    I mean this is the age of the Internet. There's not really that much of a "backyard" anymore, everyone has instant communication and access to information. There are people who grew up with the Internet, who had no experience of a world before it. Heck I was watching a zombie movie with my 17 year old cousin the other day who was surprised the news interrupted a tv show on it, to which I was like "Yeah just like 9/11 remember?", to which he replied no he was 4 years old.

    Even look at this forum. How much teenagers there are who are scared of coming out, but who most importantly, want to and are planning to in the near future? Something that would be unthinkable when you were their age I'm sure, which shows the differences in society these days.

    Someone above said that young kids are still being negatively influenced by homophobic parents today, but they're also just as influenced by society, which now includes the Internet. Society points out it's stupid to discriminate like people did in the past, non-nuclear family relationships are shown to be so normal in media that adults grew up on that they're not even focused on (Toy Story? Pokemon? Single parent families for example) and kids quickly learn that their parents don't know everything, as they can just Google what they say, and know more about technology than their parents do.

    So, somewhere in that rambling post, the answer to the op is:

    From my generation at least, I'd say it's more social reality, less political correctness.
     
  10. Choirboy

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    I think part of the problem is that this is largely uncharted territory for everyone. Reporting that a celeb is gay is very often a case of sensationalizing something that ought to be a private thing (or, as private as someone in the public eye can ever be). In that case, it IS the institutionalized homophobia of "OMG, xxx is GAAAAAYY!!!" But it can also serve the useful purpose of proving that there really ISN'T anything different between Celeb A and Celeb B because one is straight, and one is gay. Would knowing that some famous person was gay have made me less likely to feel that I wouldn't be accepted for being gay? Perhaps. Is it really my BUSINESS if they're gay? Absolutely not. What's right?

    Parity will definitely come when it just doesn't matter. Until then, there will be a whole lot of adjusting that has to happen for us AND the straight community, and it has to happen gradually, or else the pendulum will swing back--potentially in ways that will not be positive.
     
  11. tscott

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    Rochester has rightfully earned the nickname "Smugtown", but it is the the home of many progressive and forward looking movements (Anthony, Douglas). We're also the home of liberal (i.e. wayward) Catholic priests. I think even here with a very active gay community that it's ok to have gays as neighbors (we usually increase property values). I suspect, however, my invitations to Oak Hill or CCR will dry up once the divorce goes through though. Maybe I may still get to be a fourth for bridge at the Valley Club.

    I do think the less threatening we look and straight we act gets us better acceptance than the stereotypical butterflies in heat. With kids, sports, "normal" careers", and the like, we're perceived as less threatening. The Ubermasculine are not the norm either and aren't going to well received (if I can be a bit bitchy for a moment, who in there right mind wears that much leather out in public, Hell's Angels aren't even tricked out like that)anymore than a drag queen. We don't scare the horses, even if we're suspect.

    I guess ther's a part of me that just says screw it. I old enough I guess to just say :***: it. Accept me or not, my time's too short to worry. I can't say that I'll put myself into too many positions were I won't be accepted either. I'll need to find my niche. That's why I like the gay men's chorus. We're there in a myriad of shapes, ages forms, types. I can see each person as an individual even if I never get highlights in my hair, have multiple piercings, wear leather (except on my feet or around my waist), or have on glittery nail polish. I also won't dress like a schlub or wear camo unless I'm out on a battlefield. There will be those who will see my khakis, boat shoes, and polo shirt, and peg me and shoehorn me into a stereotype.

    As long as we treat people in groups we'll have prejudices. When I lived in Boston I distanced myself from Southies, too "wicked" working class, in Virginia anything was preferable to the pretentiousness of those who lived in Maryland, and, yes, we are indeed taught this. I'll even admit to being a classist, until I get to know an individual. Someone said all it is is another closet, a wall to shield and protect us from our fears and insecurities. He's right. Having just stepped out of one closet, has shown me the other shortcomings in my life, what other doors I need to step out of and let myself into the light.(&&&)
     
    #11 tscott, Feb 6, 2014
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  12. StillAround

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    Tim (Did I remember your name correctly?),

    :eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap:eusa_clap

    I think you're exactly right. Nothing to add, except for a quick comment about this:
    I was fortunate when growing up to attend a magnet school, with kids from all over the city. Not much ethnic variety, but a lot of cultural and religious and class differences. And we all learned to get along. We were all out of our comfort zones, we were all afraid of something, more insecure because we were in the presence of nothing but strangers and the unknown. And so we bonded with one another. And by the time we began to understand the differences among us, they simply didn't matter anymore. The bonds were too important.

    Maybe coming out later in life can be a little like that. For others, who have known us for a long time (at least knowing most of who we are), the fact that we are gay, or lesbian, or whatever else, just won't matter so much--we've already gone through so much together, maybe this one difference won't matter so much. Just another step to full cultural and social acceptance...

    I can dream!
     
  13. OGS

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    It's interesting--it seems to me exactly the opposite. I think sometimes we spend so much time catastrophizing what others will think about us being gay and the fact of the matter, in my experience--twenty some odd years ago when I came out and even more so now--is that most straight people don't think that much about it. They're much more concerned about whether you're a good neighbor who takes care of your lawn or a good coworker who pulls your own weight at work. I don't know, I guess maybe I've just been remarkably lucky in life...
     
  14. StillAround

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    It depends, I guess, on your life. And maybe you have been remarkably lucky in life. I have too, but not in that way. In my time, In my culture, what you have experienced would have been unthinkable, even undreamable.

    But I celebrate your luck, or skill, or environment--whatever it was...
     
  15. OGS

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    I guess so--I guess it's nice to have an occasion to feel lucky for having grown up gay and Mormon in Utah.:lol: I still stand by what I said at least for my experience. What I thought about what people would think drove me to attempt suicide my senior year in high school. Then when I finally came out shortly after college, not really a lot of reaction. Certainly not what I had built up in my mind. I remember my father saying shortly after I came out that there had always been something about me he just didn't get--and he was relieved that he finally knew what it was and now we could all just get on with it. Yeah, I guess I was lucky.
     
  16. emkorora

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    There seems to be a great deal of disapproval of federal and state actions here. A lot of "me, me, me."

    "My fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your county." John F. Kennedy

    I think a great portion of society has changed. Or rather-- the society that did exist in the '60s has slowly died with time and a new society has risen in its place. People change heart, too. Perhaps some members of the older generation have merely found that this new opportunity for hearts to change has helped them along the path of accepting and promoting equal rights.

    I would not assign blame on the political party. Yes, LGBT rights are-- and will be-- ammunition for a representative to support their election by condemning or helping our cause. Furthermore, if an elected representative chose to hold an opinion concerning LGBT rights, who are we to stop them?

    After all, the greatest threat to American liberty does not lie with asserting our rights but denying them. And yes, he is fully entitled to his first Amendment.
     
  17. StillAround

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    I apologize in advance if I misinterpreted your post.

    But I don't see a lot of disapproval here. I see a conversation about our culture. Politics/federal-state actions are just a reflection of that culture. And I don't see any "me, me, me" either.

    I came of age as Kennedy died, so your quote above has a lot of meaning for me.

    Yes, a lot of people in our society have changed, but our culture has not. The culture that led to the Stonewall riots is the same culture that led to the murder of Mathew Shepard, and it's the same culture that still leads to bullying, intolerance, and the deaths of many young people today. The gay teens committing suicide today are not weak; they're not disordered in any way. They're just gay--and facing a society that can't accept, or even tolerate, them. That society/culture is still very much alive, although, we can only hope, in a dwindling percentage of the population.
     
  18. HopeFloats

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    I think so much depends on where you live. I live in Atlanta - in the city, not the suburbs. It feels safe to be out here. Going around town with my gf and my daughter does not attract attention. There are parts of the city that are especially LGBT friendly. I get spoiled.

    But the suburbs and small towns in Georgia, as well as my home state of SC, are not nearly as LGBT friendly. A second cousin of mine who claims to have gay friends recently participated in a letter writing campaign against Disney for having a lesbian couple on a show. She objected that that was "explicit". I told her that was the same as objecting to a black character on the show. They weren't doing anything sexual, just there as parents on the show. So any veneer of "acceptance " on her part is very thin and mere Political Correctness. She said she didn't object to the existence of gay people and was offended that I said she was... She just didn't want her poor children to see a same sex couple. She doesn't know I'm gay. Maybe when i finally come out to everyone in my family, she will eventually change her mind. Or maybe she'll keep her kids away from me. We'll see.
     
  19. biAnnika

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    Ed, I take this as proof of how far we've come.

    I also agree with those who say the percentage of Americans who are in favor of sexuality equality is at *least* 50%. Marriage equality nationally polls well over 50%...law, by its nature, moves much more slowly than does sentiment.

    Further, I believe that empty political correctness is *far* from empty. I had a foster brother who was in the Navy, who told us about how a good time on a Friday night was getting drunk with a bunch of his buddies, and "kicking the shit out of a bunch of faggots." (He was 10 years older than I was and died young of a brain aneurism before I was out.) Now, whether or not *anyone* likes it, those young gay men who were once beaten can friggin' *enlist* if they want to...and are almost certainly no more harassed than the (straight) women who enlist with them. Even if they don't enlist, they're *much* less likely to get the shit kicked out of themselves thanks to hate crime laws. Society may hate away...but if they are caught harassing or killing homosexuals for their sexuality, the law will give them an extra helping of butt-hurt.

    But a society that has laws like this...can you really say such a society hates gays? I mean, after all, society voted for the politicians who passed these laws...and those politicians weren't sneaky about it...political death comes from sneaking unpopular laws past the voters, and politicians don't risk political death any more than civilians risk civil death.

    Surely, there are pockets of haters. In every State, including those that have marriage equality and all kinds of equal rights protections. And if you live near such a pocket, the country will feel a *lot* more homophobic on balance than it really is.
     
  20. GayDadStr8Marig

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    I'd venture to say that when we talk about "society" or "our culture" being anti-gay or homophobic or (insert adjective of choice), what we're really doing is taking a short-cut that in our own minds usually refers to the intolerant classes in the society/culture that seeks to marginalize and disenfranchise others classes based on some arbitrary attribute. (Classes here meaning a grouping of people within the society, not in the sense of class hierarchy or relative, perceived personal worth as groups of people.)

    And to add to the complexity of approaching these issues, each of us comes from a different part of the country (or world), from different familial and economic backgrounds, and different generations. We use the same words, but they have different meanings for the person using them. If in doubt, I try to give the benefit of the doubt, and if I still can't wrap my head around what's being said, I'm ready to raise my hand for help.

    All that being said, I'm really impressed by the discussion and getting a sense of everyone's unique perspectives. One of the best ways I grow is to have my assumptions challenged from time to time. I'm glad to know when I'm wrong, because then I can learn and become a better person and less ignorant. If more people out there in the world could just put in a little effort besides worrying about what Beiber smoked or who the next bachelorette will be or whatever, we could see real positive change for respecting people... not based on politics, religion, sexual orientation, gender, race or anything, but as unique individuals who happen to have their own set of those attributes.