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How I Intend to Tell the Kids

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by greatwhale, Mar 13, 2014.

  1. greatwhale

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    Greetings Folks,

    Well, my ex-wife wanted to know exactly how I plan to tell the kids, so I wrote this outline for this afternoon session with her counsellor, with the help of a guide from the COLAGE website (Thanks Jim!):

    Outline of discussion with kids:
    • Start with reiteration of my commitment to remain in their lives always and state that I will explain being relatively distant in the past months since I left the house
    • Prior to initiating discussion, I intend to tell them that they are the most important people in my life and to reassure them that they can ask as many questions as they want and also to reassure them that they don’t need to say anything if they don’t want to.
    • Tell them also that it is important that anything they hear about me, should come from me.
    • Inform them that I am dating
    • Inform them that I am dating guys
    • Calmly respond to reactions and reassure them that they can vent their anger, or express their surprise if they so chose
    • Tell them that I just recently told their mother
    Emotions: bring up the following points (pausing throughout to let them process this information and reminding them that I can stop at any time and that we can discuss later if they so choose):
    o State clearly that this does not change me in any way, that I am still their dad and I have not changed at all, they just know me better now.
    o Explain that this was a very long and difficult process for me and that I have only accepted being gay within the last year
    o Tell them that it is ok to be confused, if I appeared to be hetero in the past, they must understand that this is not something I chose, it is part of who I am
    o Explain clearly what being “gay” means (appropriately)
    o Explain how being gay fits in the Jewish context
    o Ask them if they have any fears about this and address them, while stating that most fears arise from ignorance and that I am there to teach them about these topics), some topics may include:
     Health
     Violence or discrimination
     How my coming out will affect their life
    o They may be relieved to finally know for sure (if they had any suspicions).
     I can tell them at this point that I am happier now than ever before
     That maybe now they can better understand the reason for the divorce
     That I can be a better parent because I am no longer trying to hide who I am
    o They may have questions:
     How this affects their own sexuality (it doesn’t)
     What other people will think or say about me (I cannot control that, but for the most part, it doesn’t matter)
     How this will affect my relationship to the community (not much).
    o They may feel pride:
     That I am standing up for who I am
     That our family is unique
     That they are part of a diverse community
    Support:
    o Their mother may offer support
    o Friends and siblings
    o COLAGE website
    o Counseling
    Family
    o Siblings
    o Inform them who knows and who doesn’t
    o Grandparents
    o Extended family
    Friends
    o Inform them that they don’t have to say a thing if they don’t want to, only they decide
    o Siblings need to respect each other’s wishes about telling
    o Ask them how they feel about telling their friends
    o Tell them about various ways this could be made easier
    o Remind them that it is OK not to tell
    o Trusting that your friends will keep it to themselves if you wish it
    School
    o Remind them that bullying and harassment are not going to be tolerated and that they are to inform their parents if this happens
    o Informing teachers and administrators
    o Deciding whether to involve parents
    Religion
    o Inform them that I am still a Jew and that I am still committed to Torah, but that I will probably no longer be attending our old synagogue
    If I have a boyfriend, partner or husband
    o Explain that I will not, under any circumstances, introduce them to a boyfriend until I know for sure that he can be trusted to act correctly in front of my kids
    o Explain also that I will not hide my relationship and that he will be involved in my life, with reasonable and appropriate regard to the sensibilities of others in the family or community
    o I will not engage in inappropriate displays of affection, but I will not completely avoid light kissing or hugging in front of them.
    o Acknowledge that all this will feel weird at first, but that over time this will become normal
    o Expect that my kids will respect (and hopefully even like) my eventual boyfriend, partner or husband

    Finally, I will remind them again that my love for them has not diminished in any way and that they will always be my first priority. I will conclude that I sincerely hope that they accept me for who I am and that their love for me is the most important thing in my life.
     
    #1 greatwhale, Mar 13, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  2. StillAround

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    greatwhale, what a great outline! I'm so glad you posted it in a thread, because I think it will be a tremendous help to others here. It's open, honest, and affirming. I hope all goes well--actually, I'm sure it will, because it seems to me that you have a strong, consistent core.

    Please let us know how it goes.

    Mazel Tov!

    (*hug*)
     
  3. Jim1454

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    Do you have a boyfriend at present? If not, I'd skip that part. Why talk about hypotheticals when there is already so much to cover?

    With respect to the boyfriend, my thinking (and many others I think feel the same) is that you probably wouldn't introduce someone to your kids until you were pretty sure it could be or already was a very serious relationship. They have already endured your separation, and you don't want to subject them to another if they were to get attached to someone who you later broke up with. It certainly could happen, but you'll want to wait until you're pretty sure he's a keeper.

    Otherwise, I think this is great.

    Again - I'm not sure your wife deserves to receive this outline. Is she going to be present for this discussion with the kids? Do you know that she will be positive and supportive about your orientation in her interactions with the kids? You should ask her.
     
  4. greatwhale

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    I will try to convince her not to be there principally because I think it will detrimentally influence their reactions and their authenticity with me. My task this afternoon is to enlist her counselor's help in that regard.

    As for the hypothetical boyfriend (I wonder if there is any other kind sometimes...) you're right, that can be covered later...She isn't against my being gay, she is pissed that I married her in the first place, so she may be supportive (eventually...).
     
  5. Thunderlane

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    "o Inform them that I am still a Jew and that I am still committed to Torah"

    Leviticus 20:13 Good luck.
     
  6. PatrickUK

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    I don't think the cherry picking of that one line out of Leviticus is going to be uppermost in this conversation.

    Hope it all goes well. Not an easy conversation to have, but I think you have a great outline for addressing the subject.
     
  7. Ravi-VIXX777

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    Wow that's a lot of planning. I'm so proud of you! Goodluck!!
     
  8. Thunderlane

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    No, you can't say you're commited to the Torah yet ignore one of its rules.
     
  9. Richie.

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    This subject is close to my heart knowing one day I will have to speak to my children...

    I agree about leaving out the hypothetical boyfriend btw, but you must do what you think is best for your situation..

    I'm sure you will handle it well!!

    Bug hugs
     
  10. GayDadStr8Marig

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    thank you greatwhale sharing this, I have been pondering the prospect that someday I will be having this same discussion. I tend to agree with Jim as well about sticking to facts for.the.initial conversation. If hey ask hypotheticals I'd ceetaily answer as completely and honestly as possible while.also advising.that things may be different in the future.
     
  11. greatwhale

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    Well folks, it went as well as I expected it would.

    Her therapist had to tell her to stop her yelling on several occasions, I basically just let her speak (the therapist actually had to tell her to use her "inside voice", like she was some kind of kindergarten pupil).

    Unembarrassed, she went on, wishing all sorts of calamities on me "I hope you catch something" and "all I want is for you to drop on your knees and pray", the therapist went on to state that I should acknowledge that the whole marriage was a failure and it is sad that this had to happen, she asked me if I accepted responsibility for this and for my "deception", I said yes insofar as I accepted that I should have come out to myself sooner; and like some school principal the therapist asked me if I wanted to say anything to my ex in response; so I apologized to the ex for causing her so much pain. The ex didn't accept that, to which the therapist remarked that perhaps there was no point in continuing.

    Constantly, the ex spouted complete fabrications, interspersed with her wanting evil things to happen to me, at one point it was getting ridiculous. The therapist kept wanting to focus on our duties as parents and what is best for the children, doing the only thing possible which is looking forward; I wholeheartedly agreed and the ex finally calmed down when we spoke of our youngest.

    We have a deal that I will come out as soon as possible, with our youngest going to counselling first, I accepted this but told them that it is necessary to do this as soon as possible. The theme of my coming out to suit me (as if this was some self-serving gesture) kept being muttered by both of them, as if I was doing this for myself; I told them I have worked out what to say, as in my opening post, but we didn't have time to cover that. I gave three clear as crystal reasons why I wanted to come out as soon as possible:
    -our youngest is at an age where he can understand what being gay means but young enough not to absorb society's biases against LGBT folk
    -My ex seems to have told everyone and I would rather that they learn it from me.
    -I want to live as openly as possible with my kids

    None of these arguments seem to have swayed the therapist...I'll be talking to mine next week.

    We agreed that I had to try involving all three kids with my life (as if I haven't been trying since I left!) and I will continue to do so, but adolescents have their own schedules.

    I paid the fee, and left.
     
  12. Brave Prince

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    You are brave. I just want to give you a hug or something. Grab a cup of tea, maybe.

    This both scares me and empowers me. I love your details. They make me think about things I hadn't considered.
     
  13. greatwhale

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    Thank you, Thunderlane, for your observation and interest in Torah. Since you appear to be interested in some Jewish and rabbinical scholarship, I'm sure you would be interested in some examples of rabbinic interpretation of the Law (or Torah as it is called), as follows:

    There is a prohibition in the Torah that Jews are not allowed to charge interest for loans to other Jews (they could charge this to non-Jews however, read Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice). Exodus, Leviticus and Deuteronomy contain similar versions of this rule that prohibits interest on loans. In fact, according to Maimonides, a creditor that asks for interest from another Jew violates no less than six biblical prohibitions. Heavy stuff!

    During the third century of the common era, Babylonia had become a great center of Jewish economic success and scholarship. The changing economic conditions made the rule of not charging interest incompatible with the growing economic needs of the time (it slowed progress). The sages were under pressure to come up with a solution, sometimes they came up with specific exceptions and leniencies, then, the exceptions and leniencies got together and started to become a general category of leniency. Soon enough, these became a social norm (it helps when everyone prospered).

    Later on, very detailed contracts were elaborated to codify this leniency so that today, the legalization of interest is so well-established that all that has to be added to current contracts among religious Jews is al pi hetter iska (according to the business permission).

    The sages and scholars made distinctions, clarified the difference between business and personal loans...they interpreted the law creatively in light of a perceived need. Would that our current scholars had the guts and the competence to do the same!

    Now to homosexuality. There are already principles of Oness that are recognized in rabbinic law, best translated as duress, or being compelled. We hold that being homosexual is not a choice, that we would be under duress in a heterosexual relationship. If that is so, the prohibition you so ably quote, Thunderlane, can be re-interpreted as being a prohibition that applies only to ritual, as the other prohibitions surrounding that passage indeed do (it being Leviticus and all).

    Thank you so much for affording me the opportunity to share a D'var Torah (a word of Torah) with you!
     
    #13 greatwhale, Mar 13, 2014
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  14. TTSP

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    Stay strong great whale. You've been through a lot it must have been very difficult and traumatic. Horrible experience for someone to wish you pain line that, you are strong to absorb it and realise that it is her own insecurities. You should trust your instinct on this one and come out quickly to the kids. With regards to Judaism i think you should trust your instinct, there are different kinds I guess like Christianity? Don't throw the baby out with the bath water!
     
  15. BMC77

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    So what does this therapist suggest? Wait as many years as you were in that hellish marriage for "punishment?" (I get the feeling she did not do a very good job staying neutral!)

    Those three arguments you made make sense to me.

    But yes, talking to your therapist might give some insight.
     
  16. BMC77

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    I won't speak about Judaism.

    But the huge difference I see between the parts of the Christian world is the amount of willingness to interpret Bible passages in new ways. "Creative" may not necessarily be good, because being creative may open the way to something "wrong but convenient for me!" Last night, I attended a faith formation class in which a question came up about some man the person knew who felt it was just fine to keep having affairs, because he could keep asking God to forgive him. Or some such thing. The pastor conducting the class was less than impressed, even though she commented the same evening about interpretations being a series of grays, not black and white.

    But the reality is...times do change. And people who are more liberal theologically recognize that, and see the Bible as something that needs to understood a way that it wasn't a century ago.

    One good example: the Genesis story of how the world got created. Fundamentalists would say that the world was created in 6 days within the last 10,000 years or whatever. Someone like me, however, views that same book as something that is not a historical description. The value lies on a deeper level. 20-some years ago, in fact, I taught Sunday school for a brief period. (Rumor has it that my class is still sound asleep in the Sunday school classroom... I wasn't a very good teacher.) My class covered Genesis, and while I don't remember the view the curriculum took, I do remember it was entirely based around a "spiritual truths" view, not "God created the world in six days, and if you don't believe what it says in this part of the Bible, you have bought yourself a first class ticket to hell!" view.

    It is worth noting, too, as Lutheran pastor has commented more than once to me, that even fundamentalists tend to be...selective in what they believe. They just love that Leviticus injunction against homosexuality. But they have no problem wearing more than one type of thread in their garments...
     
  17. biAnnika

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    I would think that #3 would be sufficient. Yes, it uses the "I" word...but how can it not be in *everyone's* interest for you to live openly? Put in reverse, how can it be in *anyone's* interest for you to continue a closeted life with your kids? By #2, it would seem that your wife has made that impossible anyway!

    I know, I know...I'm preaching to the choir again. But damn it, they're so friggin' *attentive*!
     
  18. Chip

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    It's probably a little late for this, but normally, when there are issues with a husband and a wife involving therapy, it's appropriate for both the husband's and wife's therapist to be present at any joint session.

    Otherwise, what you get is what you described... therapist and client ganging up on the spouse.

    It does sound like the therapist at least tried to calm your (ex) wife down, but it also sounds like she's not the sharpest therapist out there (sadly, not uncommon.) If there are future sessions, would it be a possibility to coordinate it so both therapists and both of you could be present for the session? It would likely go very differently. I'd probably also do a 90 minute session in those circumstances.
     
  19. Clay

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    I wish I could say more or share a relevant experience to help you.

    The only thing I can say is I wish you the best of luck. You have my best wishes.
     
  20. skiff

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    Paid the fee...

    That keeps ringing in my head. If only there was a fee to pay and put the past on the shelf and move forward without regret.

    Is "regret" the fee?

    Paid the fee...

    Tom