Suddenly feeling out of date, out of touch and out of my element

I'm new here, and feeling a little like the idiot in the room.

First, I'm really impressed by the insight many of you have. I'm learning things I thought I already knew. It's blowing my mind a little.

In my world, most of the therapist talk on here would be labeled 'liberal feel good mumbo jumbo.' Personally, I love psychology and debate, so I think the reality is that I've been bathing my brain in a conservatively biased environment for a couple of decades. I have some hard core leftist relatives, but I don't talk to them anymore - mostly because they encouraged me to tank my marriage, knowing my sexuality, instead of encouraging me towards success as a father and husband.

All this talk about the anti LGBT bias is brand new to me, probably because I've spent no time following the equality movement. I also read very slowly do to a medical error, which results in limited reading for me period, and we all know reading makes us smarter. I miss that.

Could I incite conversation from: folks who spent some of their years under the anti LGBT rock; those who are/were trying to stay married, but not if it meant perpetuating the lie; anyone with thoughts on how to come out without making it 'all about me'; or ideas on why this site sounds liberal to me when we all know this is an everybody issue.

I'm willing to get introspective and question what I think I know on any of this.

Thanks in advance,
BPC

 

The LGBT rock metaphor is poor. I'm suggesting that I may be so used to the bias that I don't see it or maybe lend to it. Politically correct is the punchline to jokes out here.

I may be rethinking the bi thing. I'm worried that's wishful thinking. I learned to love my wife, in all ways. I assumed I didn't do that with men because I loved my male molesters. Who knows. I've never felt wrong loving a man; ashamed, but not wrong.

My wife would stay married to avoid embarrassment. She's always known about my sexuality, but if I decide to come out, things could get ugly. Personal hell is preferred over public humiliation. My honor will be crucified.

That's where the conservative thing trips me up. I've stayed the course. I was 16 when I got my wife, 26, got pregnant. The youngest of our 4 children is now 22. I can say it's my time now, but I myself think that's not very accountable. I can say that my wife doesn't deserve this sham, but she'd choose it.

I remember agreeing with Dr Laura S when she raked a gay guy for placing his needs over those of his young kids. I also know that lies breed lies. I cannot stand tall when I'm never honest, and when a massive part of who I am is a forbidden topic in my life.

The local therapist was a good friend's Dad. He's a phone. he also got his son hooked on porn at 14, while they watched it together. I don't think that's a resource.

While I do long for validation, and am sorely lacking it, I don't think the fact that I deserve it automatically entitles me to it. I don't respect entitlements much. This is how we conservatives crush hearts, by leaving them no room to beat.

And StillAround: Preach! Please no religious stuff, but I can appreciate a good lecture. Hell, I can give those. I've been called off putting myself. I'm always looking to tame my soap box a little, but you can't offend me (do let me know if I'm offensive though, no real PC filters here).

If you've read this far, thanks for letting me ramble.
BPC

 

Man great white: part of me so appreciates what you are saying, and part of me so thinks it's bullshit. I could argue either side, and well.

The positive is that I made all the choices I've made consciously. I knew what parts of me I would be subjugating to have a family in redneck territory. For the first time ever, the pain of losing myself is outweighing the risk of solitude.

I'm not pretending that I don't struggle with projections, but for the most part my performances have been conscious. My wife and children are awkward, and question and choose their labels intentionally. How I was raised has been influential in my choices, but not without serious consideration.

You speak very softly, which I appreciate. I don't really think in those terms. To pataphrase what I think you just said from my perspective: I believe that it's all a lie, all if it; we cannot survive without buying into the lies. All societies are built on that. The only truths are things opinions; beauty, honor, righteousness, faith, love; these are all the addictions we choose, so we'd best choose wisely.

If I'm ever too blunt, please say so.
BPC

 

greatwhale: If by truth you mean that our souls understand and seek out a certain correctness in things, I agree. And I agree it is a potential role of religion, if religion is being expressed in such a way that it can tolerate that kind of seeking. It's easy to be skeptical of any institution, though. Once and institution's intent is overrun by it's need to survive - justifications take over.

Libertarian! I knew I liked your perspectives for a reason. Didn't I read something about you being Jewish? I will look up Hayek. I have to choose my reading time carefully; my reading rate was butchered in a medical screw-up years ago. Right now I'm focusing that effort here on EC (I had the misfortune of choosing Bonnie Kaye as bedtime reading last night...disaster of an advocate for straight wives). In terms of social evolution, our country is already in the apathy stage. Unfortunately that may mean we must travel through anarchy before we see another age of governing spirituality.

Today, I'm feeling terror. The joy of finding a place to converse openly is slowly being replaced by a return to reality. There is no arguing that I ran from the lifestyle, and I adapt slowly - deeply, but slowly. I consider my family life to be a true blessing, and I could not stop loving any of them, but there is no question that some, my wife specifically, may react with some reactive punishment. My wife was kind enough to stand in for my absent mother, which means I used her terribly in so many ways. Her bitterness deserves some space. She is a good woman who may never be able to forget, but she can forgive.

My true fear is walking alone. Since I clearly chose to be a son, and never intended to be a real husband (that wasn't conscious), I must walk alone - but reading threads, or my own insecurities, have me petrified. This could go really badly. It could go really well, but I'm not the only one manifesting results here. For several days now; I can't eat, I can't sleep. I believe I'm even experiencing panic (can't be sure, I've never felt that before).

Needless to say, I'm not as gung ho as I was a week ago. Maybe a slower, less impulsive approach...

 

I keep running into situations where what I've written gets magically deleted. very frustrating...

I can't figure out that quote thing you are doing.

StillAround: I think I get what you're saying. So how did you find yourself reacting to my previous examples?

You are right about the privileges. I would personally rather explain a gay biracial couple discretely holding hands in Epcot to a 6 year old than twerking by white idiots during the halftime show, or graphically violent CD covers from Arian bands. I had a choice of two banners to raise when I was young. I chose to raise kids that would not be institutionalized into zombie sheople, thereby maintaining my claim to both white and heterosexual privilege. It's probably part of what I'm afraid to give up.

StillAround: That's an interesting phrase, "I learned to love my wife." Why do you feel that's what you did? The answer may tell you something about your sexuality. And have you ever told your wife that you "learned" to love her? What do you think she'd say to that?

In truth, I learned to love, period. My parents were overly typical yuppies, leaving me to be raised by a village. It was amazing and scarring and bred a narcissistic young attention seeker out of me. In a sour mood, she might say I haven't learned a thing. Since she still views my gayness as a sign of my lack of commitment and changeable, the phrase gives her hope (which I am carefully removing) and lots of resentment.

StillAround: I assume you mean that she "knows" you're bisexual? But does she know that you're now questioning even that, and that you're thinking you might be gay? And would that change her willingness to stay in your marriage?

I suggested that she had married a gay man a few days ago. That's a big statement, so I'm letting it seep in. Who knows what her mind is doing with it, but she kissed me goodnight...

I think she is hoping I will agree to a sexless marriage. The men before me, and a sham of a marriage appear to have ruined her on men. I might agree to avoiding any legal or financial upheavals until/unless that became disrespectful to any other relationship I/she might have.

StillAround: You haven't said how old you are, but if you were 17 when your first was born, you're at least in your mid-forties, right? Are you, in fact, reaching the point now that I reached 7 (no, it's 8) weeks ago, when I decided that living my life with integrity, authentically, was more important?

I just turned 44. I wish I were so honorable. I decided that doing the 'right thing' no longer has benefits for me or my family. My kids have figured it out, the transition from mother/son to husband/wife is not working for either of us, we are financially sound, and I don't want to live a repressed life anymore. As much as my wife longs for romance, I long for self respect. I have a chance to get mine, and she does to, if she'd see it that way.

StillAround:You say your honor would be crucified. Define honor... Coming out would be an act of courage (original meaning: to tell one's story from the heart), not of shame. Shame is what keeps people like us in the closet. Here are a couple of definitions from a researcher named Brene´ Brown: "Guilt is the feeling that you made a mistake; shame is the feeling that you are a mistake." I recommend you google her name. She has two 20-minute TED talks that I found very insightful. It may sound like psychobabble to you, but she's got a decade of research to back her up.

That is funny...Psychobable is my air! I look forward to checking it out. The crucifixion comment is dramatic. I'll just suffer a little character assassination, privately. I can survive a little name calling, and my wife probably won't talk about this with many out in public unless they seek her out (which she will consider tacky). She's not a prim as my comments make her sound, but she does have some strong social rules for our family.

In my head, I think I struggle more with worthiness, or worthlessness. Is that just a semantic sidestep from shame? I haven't studied shame.

StillAround:Sorry, I just got sidetracked there for a minute. If you live in a conservative community, with mostly conservative friends, your reputation will probably be damaged. You may lose some people you think of as friends.

First, I don't make many friends. Those that I might have made, my wife stepped in and either became better friends, or ushered them away (a typical straight wife tactic, I think). She's afraid I'll be disloyal or embarrassing, both of which I have been.

Despite that, My family is very prominent - as individuals and as a group. My individual weak ties will save me on this one. We have big money, and therefore liberal mindsets, close by. I worked in that community for decades, so my connections are there. I will have more hugs than snubs, and so will my wife. The problem is not navigating the reality, it's will be navigating my wife's fear.

StillAround: Which is more important? For most of my life, I lived as though your definition was the one I had to live by. But I've come to realize that the first definition is the one that matters the most. Apart from my sexuality, I like to think I've lived a life of integrity. But in the end, honesty and fairness about my sexuality became as important as everything else.

We say it to our children: We are all bound be what we know, until we know better. So we educate ourselves, and our behavior improves. That's life. Some of my actions have been unethical, but not immoral - and that's by my standard, no one else's. Honor, honesty, fairness and integrity are tricky topics. I only believe in them within the realm of personal interpretation. I maintain that in the hands of the masses, they are tools of destruction.

Still Around: You were 16 and she was 26? I don't know what the age of consent is where you were, but I'm pretty sure that, if you had been a few months younger, your wife would have been guilty of statutory rape, regardless of who initiated sex. You were a child. Sorry, but at 16, you were. I taught in high schools for almost 20 years, so I speak with some experience here. How did your family react when you married? How did her family react? How do you feel about that now, after what, 25 or more years of marriage?

I sincerely loved every one of my molesters, even the one I married (my tongue is firmly in my cheek there). The town was small, her mother was more of a mother to me than my own (I actually loved my mother-in-law first), I had a crush on her younger brother, I was the seducer, and yes, I was a child. My family freaked. My Mom and Aunt had put a lot of effort into sending me to Hollywood to be a gay actor, and put a lot of effort into defacing my wife's character too. Believe me, my wife, my brother, my grandmother, my aunt; they had worse childhoods. Yep, I got messed up, but they got screwed.

Still Around: Not accountable, how? At 16, you did the honorable thing. For 25 or more years, you did what you thought was the honorable thing, by your definition. Who are you accountable to now, with all your kids grown? Not your wife, because she has lived all these years knowing that her relationship with you was, at least in some ways, a lie.

Finally, I will be accountable to me!

StillAround: in reality, life comes in all shades of grey,

We share these terms - One of my first statements to all new employees, "I'm a gray manager. If you think in black and white, you're in for a frustrating ride."

StillAround: What kind of parent could that young man have been when he forced himself to deny his sexuality, to live a lie? Is it not far more important for children to have two happy, loving parents (whether apart or together) than to live in a family that is a lie? And how would living that lie affect that young man's parenting, with anger and fear and resentment always bubbling just below the surface?

All of what you've said here is true, and I still disagree, if it implies a problem. I know many a lie besides sexuality, and many a child raised within it. Well adjusted children come from parents who share love, and a willingness to set AND bend boundaries. I was a poor (both definitions) young parent , and my wife and I did fight, a lot, but we were both devoted to love, real love, even when it sucked. If you knew my children, you would know we got it right. Children don't grow in a vacuum. It's the toxins, and the anti toxins, together, that build strength and character. Adversity is not the problem, how we are taught to handle adversity is the problem.

So I know my family will be alright...shit, now you made me cry.

StillAround: First, I wouldn't use the word "validation." I'd use "acceptance" and "compassion." And you are entitled to that. I think these should be basic human rights. I often visit conservative web sites, trying to understand opposing views. And my sense is that your last sentence quoted above is right on. In the last school in which I taught, this quote was calligraphed above the Faculty Lounge:

"Be kind, for everyone is fighting a great battle."

That sentence hung on my office door for twelve years...but I do not believe in entitlements, period. God promised us life, no more. America's constitution provided us with rights, self evident rights; rights in the hands of an institution for which we will all suffer, whether entitled or not, because institutions cannot understand acceptance or compassion. Those are human traits.

StillAround: I think many conservatives don't live in a world where that kindness comes easily. But we are all flawed; control over the paths of our lives is an illusion. All 4 of my grandparents emigrated from western Russia before the fall off the czar. Had they not done so, my parents and grandparents would most likely have died in the ovens or gas chambers of the Holocaust. At many points in my life, things could have gone very badly. One example: When I was 9, the younger of two children (and the one who was pretty much ignored because I was the good child), I acted out by lighting fires in the woods near my neighborhood. I lit two of them, both serious enough to require a fire department response. And I wasn't smart, just lucky. Lucky that there was no property damage, no injuries or deaths. And I was lucky that I wasn't caught. If I'd been caught, the entire arc of my life would have changed, and not in a good way. Be kind, for everyone is fighting a great battle.

Thank you for gifting me with that story. If we have both given and received that kind of grace in our lives, and we recognize it, our lives change exponentially.

And this is why I cry, because I truly believe that my wife was a blessing, who saved me from myself when I could not. Don't think I don't know I have blessed her as well. But I've never had to leave the blessing of home, nor thank someone for all they've done and leave anyway.

StillAround: I'm enjoying this conversation. I hope you are, too.

I hate you, I'm like sobbing right now...

 

At the end of a tough and awkward day, I want to extend a little gratitude. I'm so glad I was lucky enough to find you boys and girls. I know I talk a lot, but it helps me learn so much more when I have to explain something to someone else. You've all been so patient, but above that you've been a true blessing. Every time I see my wife right now, I get weak with worry and insecurities. I've no idea what will happen or when, but surviving it alone felt impossible, and now I have hope that I won't have to...thanks!

Sleep well and much love to all!
BPC