Greetings, Last night, I had dinner with my daughter, we have a good time when we're together and yesterday was no exception. She loves to tell stories about her friends and her boyfriend's gay uncle. She sang a few songs she's learned, talked about her boyfriend and all the other friends she makes so easily. We commiserated over her need to re-do math in summer school and we laughed about our respective scatter-brained ADD episodes. Finally, after so many months of trying to broach the subject (and after my ex told all the kids, without consulting me), I asked her simply (and a little nervously): "So what do you think of your father being gay?". At first she was taken aback, but then I asked her to confirm whether everyone knew, and she confirmed that yes, pretty much everyone knew. She also said it didn't matter. We had earlier talked about other people she knows who are gay and she said it wasn't important, and that it is just one part of who people are and it's no one's business who one sleeps with. We established a few ground rules about who any BF of mine would be called and who he would be to them, and we were in full agreement that this person would be no substitute for anyone. We also agreed that now was not the time to talk about it with her younger brother, as he did not take the news as well as she and her older brother did. After I brought her home, I naturally got a text from the ex stating that I should have consulted with her. No, I didn't have to, she's my daughter and damned if I'll be censored, I know more about this particular subject than she does. She complained that this is not co-parenting. If she wanted co-parenting she should have kept me informed of the school my son is going to, or the camp she sent him to, or what is happening with his therapy, or my daughter's consulting a social worker (all of these I had to learn from my kids). All of these things were done without consulting me (which is actually a direct breach of our Separation Agreement). I brought my daughter home, we took turns being "fabulous" and laughed all the way to her place. We kissed each other and she left the car to go home. I love her very much.
I'm happy that you and your daughter at least understand each other now. And Congratulations, and best wishes. Have a great day
GreatWhale - Really glad to hear you took another step in your journey. Your daughter sounds like she is very mature for her years, and I'm glad she said "it didn't matter" who you are. That alone shows well on you, and the values/acceptance/love that you taught her will facilitate her throughout life. And as far as the "co-parenting" goes, I totally feel your aggravations as you deal with the blatant double-standards...
Very sweet. And it must be a huge relief to hear that pretty much everyone knows. I find it very frustrating some days trying to switch from "work" mode, where everyone who matters already knows, and I don't care who else finds out, to "neighborhood" mode, where no one knows (although at least one certainly SHOULD suspect), because my wife is still not quite ready to be the eventual ex-wife of a gay husband. Our experiences with the ground rules are somewhat different because of my unexpected relationship status, but so far the oldest appears comfortable and accepting, and the youngest is OK but disinterested--basically their approaches to everything else in the world, and Dad being gay is no different from anything else. Which is fine with me! As to the ex trying to control everything....sigh. Mine didn't want our youngest to know, and then several months later she felt I needed to have the discussion THAT WEEKEND. And then she determined when my siblings should be told....but was she ever pissed when I came out to her cousin's wife without permission! I'm doing my best to accept the fact that (at least in her case; I can't say about your ex, GW) this really is just about her trying to regain some of the control that she lost when I decided to be myself instead of the husband I thought she wanted. That's an ongoing struggle, and I wouldn't put up with it if not for the fact that there's some kernel of friendship between us that seems to be salvageable. Setting the new ground rules is always a challenge.
That is awesome news! You should be feeling great today. So glad to hear that you guys are moving forward in your relationship. Hopefully your ex will come around someday too.
My wife of 28 years is totally accepting of my coming out last December 28th and our on-going no contest divorce. My daugther of 27 years was totally accepting when I came out to her two days after coming out to my wife. When I told her, she went into her room and came out with a book about a middle aged man who had just come out after years of child abuse---my situation and then I realized that "there are no coincidences in life". I have no rules except one. My lover is to be called my "lover". We are not partners as we don't do business together, just share love and life. My daughter wanted to use the term "boy friend", so sorry, he is 60 years old. A man, my man. Just that one rule. Nothing else. Rules just constrict and restrict you and who set you up to be judge and jury anyway. My wife is a little sad but she is holding up well. No demands from her, just acceptance. My lover's ex-wife called him on the day that he was going to meet his twenty something sons to tell him that not to say that he is "gay". She is a conservative religion type--You know. Love God, hate people. But he laughed, as the horses are out of the barn there. You leave the lives of those who control you by not looking back. For those who don't control you, you can turn around and share. I do. In Love and with Love. It grows you like nothing else.
Greetings, Herr Whale! *Huge* congratulations to you on coming out to your daughter! (Actually, less on the "coming out" part, since it sounds like she already knew...more, really, on bringing yourself to be able to talk with her in general about yourself and your sexuality.) It sounds like it went very well and flowed rather naturally, even if there was a momentary initial awkwardness. I agree with you entirely about your wife...*she* is the one who told your kids, so you have broken no agreements. You were just having the integrity to address the topic *she* brought out of the closet, right? Why on earth should you have to discuss that with her ahead of time? She made this a non-issue. You're just treating it like the non-issue she made it. And I think it's best to continue to do so. In that vein I want to (mildly) disagree that you should hold off talking to your youngest about this. I certainly don't advocate doing anything you're uncomfortable with (and I know you wouldn't), or that you think would be harmful to your child...and you certainly have a better sense than I would about whether such a conversation would in fact be harmful. But he knows already...and it sounds like he is conflicted about it (the conflict is his love and possibly concern for you vs. his feelings about your sexuality). He needs somebody sane to talk to about it, and he needs to hear the real story, as opposed to possibly the one he's been fed. I worry that the longer he's allowed to sit and stew with partial or outright wrong information, the harder it will be for him to accept the real stuff when it does show up. I think that in the spirit of treating this as a non-issue, it would be a good idea to float the topic with him sometime soon. If he's not ready to discuss it, he'll let that be known. If he does have questions, or wants confirmation (or perhaps confirmation of parts of the story and refutation of others) of what he knows or thinks he knows, then he really deserves that chance. Certainly be prepared for emotions, possibly argument, possibly *statements* of non-acceptance (but rest assured that he loves you and that his emotions are about where he is, not anything lasting about you). Emotions are not a bad thing, and if he has them, it's important for him to get them out in the open. These are perspectives that your daughter would not understand, so it makes sense to me that her intuition would say "not now...wait." But I think his best interests are served by not waiting much longer. Don't wait until he's had a chance to completely ice over about this, to nurture feelings of resentment and hurt into a defensive crust, to internalize messages that haven't come from you, to dull himself to the positive impact that such a conversation should have when you and your daughter finally deem him "clearly ready". Curious to hear more of your thoughts. But congratulate yourself on your daughter...that sounds like a small battle won! *hugs*
Thank you all for your kind words. Annika, I happen to agree with you, the sooner I tackle this issue with my youngest, the better. It is of course not so simple dealing with the ex who has echoed my daughter's opinion on the matter. Nevertheless, it will happen, I will find a way to make it happen, The points you made are spot on and will be helpful during the negotiations.
Your ex-wife told the kids? The last I recall, she was fighting so they wouldn't learn... Still, I'm glad things went well with your daughter. And perhaps actually this sort of talk will work better in some ways than what I recall you planning (the family meeting with the three kids, telling them "I'm gay", etc, etc). While it might have been better if you had controlled the actual coming out, this way it can be a more "normal" talk, and something that can go in the direction that each son or daughter needs/wants. ---------- Post added 17th Jul 2014 at 10:49 AM ---------- I don't suppose you'd be willing to send her out here to teach me Making Friends 101? :lol:
Hi greatwhale, that reminded me of how it is with my eldest daughter. She knows I'm bi, doesn't matter to her in the slightest, and we have a rollicking good time talking about everything from science and biology, to the quirkiness of her friends at school. I can empathize a little with not being kept in the loop by your ex though - mine pretty much acts as though (she thinks she) 'owns' the kids, that she can 'do as she damn well pleases', which is so untrue; they are sovereign beings in their own right, and while we parents have a role to guide them, they have rights too, although my ex sometimes tramples over those. It isn't right, but even more so for you because clearly you have a written, formal order in place, and if she isn't following it, surely you have recourse regarding this? I read that in your situation, you should write down in a diary, every detail: the date, time, what was said, what you found out, what happened...regarding breaches by your ex. Then later, you have that diary to refer to, should you need to assert your natural rights as the children's father in a Court setting again. You should not have to put up with this...
Happy to help in whatever way I can! You'd said you and your daughter agreed that now was not the time, so that was why I assumed you were leaning against talking to him soon. But I'm not sure I get this "negotiations" thing...again, she told him already...you're just acknowledging a topic she already raised, and treating it as the non-issue it is (oh, you told him? great, that'll make it easier for us to talk about it!). I'm sorry if I'm being dense or not getting some of the complexities of divorce law, but why can you not just have the conversation? Could the fallout from her possibly be worse than the fallout from letting her control the message to the degree she's been doing so?
My daughter, who is pretty wise about these things and knows her mother well, was pretty clear that the ex is willing to go to great lengths to get her way. So yes, negotiations are a part of the deal, but there is a definite time limit after which I will just have to take the flak.
This exchange sounds great. I am so happy for you. I also hope all goes better than expected with your youngest. You seem to make good decisions and give great advice to the rest of us, so trust that inner self. Peace.
GW I've valued your posts to me and wish I could return the favor but I can't. Do know that I hurt for you in dealing with your ex... and hope she'll be able to see how she is hurting the kids with all the "trifling" she's up to. I'm so happy that you and your daughter had such a great time and hope it will go well with your youngest. Peace, John
I'm sure you already know this. But I think I can understand the need for negotiation and keeping the peace. Or as much peace as possible. Your ex-wife may be your ex-wife, but you are stuck having regular dealings with her as long as the child care arrangement lasts. That said...it's important to realize that the important people in this are your children. Their interests, long term, are far more important. So yes, at some point, if you need to cross your ex-wife, well, you need to do it.
