Greetings, Communication in relationships is a big issue. When two solitudes come together, they bring with them expectations, rules, assumptions and desires. For a relationship to work, all of these need to be clarified and understood from each partner. When we use relationship words like love, intimacy and trust (to name just a few), we are using words that have no concrete and solid meaning, like rock or chair. This is why language can be dangerous, the meaning of words is in their use, and in most people's heads. In a relationship, it is important to get clear about the meaning of these words, and how each one uses and understands them. There are good ways to communicate, but it is so easy to go off the rails and tumble into insults and misunderstandings. Enter clean communication, as shown in this article: The 10 Commandments of Clean Communication | The Art of Manliness I'd like to know your thoughts on this and maybe some examples in your own lives where using these techniques may have been the better option.
Thanks for sharing. Need some time to process. There is a lot of information here. Much of what I saw was terribly familiar from marriage counseling.
Good article GW one technique that was presented to me when the ex and i were going through couples therapy, was to use I and Me statements rather than You and Your statements. this makes my speach about me and not accusing. for example; when X happens I feel Y. rather than when You do X You make Me feel Y if that makes any sense.
Yelling, sarcasm, insults, and name-calling undermine trust. Hmmm... If you have reached that stage, there is clearly no more respect, so you shouldn't be there at all. This kind of articles reminds me the joy of being single... It just sounds too complicated, too unnatural... If two people get along together, they don't need no counseling and no self help articles, they just... Don't.
I agree with you, in principle, good couples are good matches when there are many similarities between the partners; so that conflict is minimized. Nevertheless, since all, absolutely 100%, of all couples will face disagreements; instead of dreading them, or fearing a breakup over such things, these events can be seen as opportunities to learn more about each other. And if that is the case, why not learn the necessary communication skills that make this process a whole lot safer for both partners? The essence of love is not looks, not how good you are in bed, etc. but rather how deeply you know each other and how deeply you love what is good in each other and how much you care about the quality of your relationship. Properly considered, an argument can be seen as a occasion to discover more about your beloved. In that sense, it should be a welcome opportunity to clear the air...plus make-up sex is awesome!
Yes, but the thing is that you can't say you are in a relationship with someone you don't know... You are just getting to know them. During those years (yes, I've said years, at least a couple of them), you are just seeing the kind of person he or she is, his/her thoughts about pretty much everything. At this stage there is this overload of feromones, so you should take into consideration that the judgement will be... Biased, to put it mildly. That is why you need at least a couple of years, maybe more, before you can say, you know a bit what his/her game is... If you find something that is just the opposite of your views, you can still try to show them why you think the way you do, but seriously... If they have that point of view, it won't probably change overnight, and even if it does, you are trying to change this person's character, which imho is not very honest and can lead to manipulation and so on... Love is about accepting the other just the way he/she is, the way he/she was when he/she entered your life. You can learn from each other, sure, but that doesn't mean to spend whole weekends talking about the way you cook the soup or why he/she shouldn't use the savings to buy a new car. You come home from a long day at work, you really don't feel like fuelling pointless discussions :sleep: The way I see things, a couple that will last is made of two complementary human beings. One of them is good with feelings, the other is a good listener, the one cooks, the other cleans, and so on... In other words : Teamwork. It seems too simplistic, but there is no need to complicate things... "Teamwork : Share victory, share defeat" If there is major disagreements at the beginning, it's better to stay away from it, just look for somebody else... Unless you enjoy neverending discussions, but not everyone have the energy or the time for this, and as I've said he/she got his/her own opinion about a subject, trying to change this could lead to manipulation. You love people just the way they are...
Hi Vodkabaret, I see that we still do not agree entirely. I'm thinking that I didn't convey the information in a way that illustrated my point as clearly as it could have been. I'm feeling somewhat frustrated that my message didn't come across to you as well as it could have. Maybe we should start over... In arguing this way, there is no implicit criticism of who you are, or of the essence of your personality (as so many disagreements/arguments deteriorate to). Nor is there any desire to change who you are. I keep myself open to the possibility of my own inadequacy in conveying my earlier message; and I am conveying to you how I feel about it because you are not a mind reader and you have no other way of knowing how it is that I feel. There is a great quote from Maya Angelou on this which is worth mentioning here: When feelings are hurt from an attack on who we are, as opposed to what we do, there is a ton of work to do to repair that damage...and it is often irreparable.
You are right, I read it too fast. Still I feel the effects of that shocking statement I mentioned earlier, when a couple went as far as exchanging insults... I don't think that there is any hope for a relationship that has reached that stage... In my opinion, is not even worth a try : Time to pack and go (or telling the other person to do just that), but that's just me... I've heard so many horror stories from so many couples (I'd say more than 60%)... True, absolutely, regardless if you are a man or woman. You don't expect a flying stone from the one you trust and love. I'll try to expose better my point of view... I think most of people go into relationships too quickly, marry too quickly, and then they find themselves trying to live with a total stranger. That is why I'm so sceptical about Counseling and the rest : It is a bussiness and the experiences of the couples I've met (and went through it) were not positive at all. They spend a lot of money, time and energy trying to save the titanic, and at the end all they got was a divorce... I understand that Counseling is just a tool to be used for a purpose, not the solution, but... Ok, the tool doesn't seem to work very well in most cases, as far as I know... Sometimes the issue is within the spouse him/herself. He/she got private issues to deal with, got nothing to do with the relationship itself... I've known quite a few of those cases :icon_sad: At the end most of the break ups were not motivated because the couple wasn't able to face a new problem, but because of old still unresolved issues. In my opinion, most of those issues are per se unsolvable, due to incompatible characters. On the other side, people need to care about the way they express how they feel, sure, but that should come naturally, I mean, if you are talking to someone you really love and respect, I'm not sure some of the sentences I read on that article would be used... :rolle: This is just my opinion, I'm also quite young, I guess, and by no means an expert on this topic or the way people go about it :icon_redf
Hi GW Thank you for the article. I believe it is on target. #2'speaks to me, 'avoid global labels'. Whenever I hear, or I myself say (or start to think) you always__________, I need to stop and ask myself if I am blowing things out of proportion.
@ greatwhale Excellent article, and not only for people concerned about being "manly," despite the title. Thank you for posting. @ Vodkaberet Unfortunately, respectful communication is largely learned, not something that comes naturally. If you learn early in life, as I did, that sarcasm is how you let someone know you're hurt by their actions, that is how you act in a conflict, until or unless you learn that there are other, better, and kinder ways to communicate that pain. That you find healthy communication natural is great, and you should be happy about that, but a lot of us do struggle with it.
Which brings us to the potential that conflict has to actually strengthen relationships... I have found the whole idea of boundaries so very pertinent to this discussion. Conflict or disagreements are inevitable in any relationship. The boundaries that each self-respecting partner in a relationship will defend serve to force each partner to negotiate and work against the other's limits. Just as a plane needs gravity to fly properly, so we seem to need some kind of countering force in our relationships in order for them to become stronger. Reminds me of a guy I used to date; kindness incarnate, nice beyond nice...and yet, it was like being smothered in feathers; nothing to work against, he was a mystery to the end, I could not get my bearings with him, I could not know him as I would have liked... One is reminded of Nassim Taleb's idea of anti-fragility, which goes beyond mere resilience. In this conception, anti-fragile systems not only survive insults of various kinds, but get stronger from the challenges that are overcome. This happens in nature quite a lot; for example, lignin (the stuff in trees that hardens the bark and trunk) is actually increased when the tree is subject to the constant swaying of the wind.
Have you read "fierce conversations" by Susan Scott? I am reading it right now, and it touches on this issue directly. In fact it was a workshop on this topic that moved me to face myself, and tell my wife that I am gay. It is grounded in the idea that moments of transformation come when we can talk about what is real, and that our conversations ARE our relationship with the other. I am finding it very helpful.
I can prove this people exists: I had an amazing teacher for seven years. The best was that he wasn't supposed to be a 'communication wizard' because of his upbringing... He was just someone kind enough to treat each and every person with the respect they deserve. Of course he wasn't 'perfect', that doesn't exist in humans... He was also a motormouth :icon_wink There is this idea that it comes 'naturally', but behind this idea there is a reason : Someone who loves people. Someone who everytime that speaks to you, forgets himself, his own personal/emotional situation, and is aware that he is talking to you right now. From that true awareness of the other, it comes the kindness. If you are too self-centered, you can't communicate efficiently. If you are constantly thinking about your own problems, your own prejudices about the other, the past, etc... You are just not really 'there'... So this idea goes beyond some useful sentences you can learn... I guess only when you are able to enter this 'state', or have this attitude, then it comes naturally to you... I wish I could explain this... I really do... :eusa_doh:
From Friedrich Nietzsche: In essence you are right, Vodkabaret, it can come naturally to speak properly to each other as long as there is a reason, a mission...a "why". In relationships, it is the relationship itself that provides the why: in a successful partnership, both are committed to the relationship and are doing what is necessary to make it work. It is a you, me and the relationship triumvirate that predominates. This article appeared just today, and it is so pertinent, mostly because it confronts the assumptions that people bring with them into a committed relationship. I happen to believe that relationships are a safe place for people to confront their past demons and all the baggage they bring with them. In a sense, the relationship is like a repair shop, a place to really discover the other, and while on that path, discover oneself.
Hi GW, I feel pretty good about communicatiin at this point. It is like poverty and all those folks society talks about avoiding. Poverty killing is an illusion and all those folks in bad situations are just folks. I have been through the worst, by societl standards of "communication in relationship", I told my wife, mother of my sons, I was gay. I lived. It did not kill me. So many things in society are horrific illusions to keep people in line and complying with the ridiculous. Communication is easy after you learn that. Tom
I think you explained it well. I understand the ideal of just knowing how to be with someone, how to listen well and respond, and doing it all automatically. The problem is that I don't do it automatically, and, yes, it is a failure to get out of my own emotions and be present. I turn into a jerk under stress. I'm trying to learn not to be a jerk or at least make it a rare event. In the process I've had to dig down to the basics of regulating my emotions and watching what I say when things get heated. I don't believe that a relationship with the right person would change my default by itself. It could only give me additional motivation to improve. I'm far from proud that it takes so much work for me to be a decent person. I wish it came naturally to me. But I have to deal with my reality of where I'm at now. Anyway, you did make sense. I wanted to explain why such obvious sounding information would be useful to me, and now its way more personal than I originally intended. I will stop now.
