Any 'active' lesbians who came out late? How did you build up a lesbian identity?

Hi there.

I'd say this is something I'm still working on. It's almost as if there are several layers to coming out.

I used to dress feminine because I used to think that was what was expected of me as a "straight" girl to attract the men/to be a respectable woman. Now I've come out, I feel like I've also thrown all the rule books out, which includes how I dress. I've always felt somewhat androgynous inside, and it's a relief to dress that way - more comfortable. I was trying on a dress recently in a shop, and it felt like I was dressing in drag. I think being in a lesbian relationship at the time with another androgynous/soft butch woman gave me the confidence to do so. I do still however feel a bit awkward when friends comment about me being "butch" - I dress how I feel comfortable.

With regards being in a relationship - it is my understanding that two butches can be together, just as two femmes can be. With my ex - I'd say we were both versatile, although interestingly we both said we had a preference for being tops - but then we took it in turns. I think ultimately I prefer manners and pleasantness rather than chivalry - as chivalry reminds me of male/female power imbalances.

 

I am not in your target audience, so take this however you like, or leave it.

I'm never sure that I fully understand questions like this. To me, if you're "building a lesbian identity", then you're overthinking things. You simply are a lesbian or you aren't.

Your lesbian identity isn't how you dress or how long your hair is or whether you wear lipstick (or Chapstick, which is just a damned effective lip balm...there are others, and some are tinted). Your lesbian identity is an internal thing...your orientation to your attractions, how you pursue them, the kinds of relationships you build, and how you play them out. It is built by living your life, and being true to yourself.

Yes, some of us got started earlier than others...but it's a process for everyone. If you think that dressing a certain way fits you better, and you've been holding back on that, because you were afraid people would draw inferences about your sexuality from it, then ok, drop that. Dress in ways that make you comfortable, and feel right to you. Wear your hair however you like. But these are the superficial things...basically, be comfortable, rather than strategic, with how you present yourself.

The attractions and relationship things are a matter of returning to adolescence, I fear. You have built some patterns of behavior that don't serve you. You have worked hard to identify these, and you know that you want to start behaving otherwise. So do.

Take a good solid look at what you *really* find attractive, what kinds of relationships *really* sound good to you. Then start dating. A date is a date, not a courtship. So if you go out and the person is clearly more toppish/chivalrous than what makes you comfortable, don't date that person again. But enjoy the date and the attention anyway. Build up your storehouse of reactions to different kinds of women (just like many later-in-life lesbians did to *some* extent with men). And as you start to recognize what works for you and what doesn't, you'll know better who to *try* to date...what vibe you're looking for from a person who asks you out or vice versa.

But there are no hard and fast rules, any more than in any other area of life. Zero. None. There is nothing about butches not dating butches or femmes not dating femmes, or femmes being submissive. My partner and I are both pretty damned femme, and we are about as egalitarian as you can get (both in and out of bed). I know butch/femme pairs that seem quite similar...though I can't speak for their sexual habits, lol.

As for lesbian codes...I dunno. Maybe they don't give the codebook to bisexual women? Or maybe the whole notion is just fiction, and everyone just works shit out by themselves.

 

Wise, wise biAnnika. Do you run seminars?

It may be because I'm older and, quite frankly, past the point of following any rules, if I ever did but I'm just going to be the best me I can be. Wear what suits my tastes and hopefully is flattering, find a hairstyle that looks good or be happy with what I've got going now.
As for the private stuff, I know what I've been imagining but not sure if that's how I'll be in reality but hope to have fun trying to figure it out. It should be fun, shouldn't it?

I think there are so many other things you don't have control over, why not enjoy what you do?

 

This is all a learning curve for me had not thought about this at all. I have never dressed particularly female I am just me and intend to stay the same. The change in acknowledging my sexuality does not change what I like to wear or look like. Or am I being naive?

 

Bi-Annika, brilliant post.

I'm about to launch myself onto the local scene, not to go out pulling, but because I want to be somewhere I can be myself. Not a mum, not a failed heterosexual wife, me, big old gay me. I need to be somewhere I can celebrate that, not be burdened by it.

And when I do, I will be going as me. Take it or leave it. If I can't be me now, when can I?

 

Thanks BiAnnika - I don't know about LooseMoose - but I guess a lot of the way I have been and acted has been rather "affected", in that I have been trying to act "straight", or ways expected of me. Cue learnt behaviour of being self-conscious, trying to act in a certain way. I learnt growing up that to be acceptable meant acting according to a certain role - "pull your stomach in", "put your make up on", "smile". I kid you not - my mother said those things repeatedly to me, and I sucked it all up. Coming out for me hasn't just involved saying "hey - I really fancy women", it's also been about saying "and with that, I don't want to follow the rules on what a woman is supposed to be like any more".

So for me, I feel I am having to etch out what it means to be a woman or even a person again. Looking back, I was in the closet not only about my orientation, but also who I actually am, and where I sit on the masculinity/femininity spectrum. I felt pretty agendered as a teenager, not necessarily dysphoric, but rather just feeling more masculine than my outward appearance belied.

I think when you've spent that long being in denial, after having people not listen to you, knowing who you really are becomes more and more difficult, as you live in a parallel fabricated world. For me with counselling, I'm working through that now - but it really isn't easy, to know who you are on the outside, if the inside has been shut out that long.

For me certainly, and I would imagine others - coming out can be almost like another adolescence, that we missed out a lot on the first time around. Of course we're going to feel awkward, try new styles out, feel rather bumbling in dating etc. There is so much new to be navigated and explored.

 

My wife is Butch, she came out and returned to the closet several times with certain partners and at certain times in her life. She is currently 47 and STILL finding her Butch identity. She is struggling also, and I really think that for those of us that are over 20 something, and came out after being raised to think that being heterosexual is the ONLY way, it's more of a struggle. I think it is somewhat harder for Butch or more female masculine centered women. They have been taught that it is not normal and ok to be anything other than feminine and they struggle. With their sexuality, their presentation, their acceptance with themselves.

I posted a great piece from Ivan Coyote(who is one HOT butch btw) about some of this. It is a journey and try to not be too hard on yourself. You can take whatever time you need to figure out what and who you are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q7IzwUa_kI

 

My wife is Butch, she came out and returned to the closet several times with certain partners and at certain times in her life. She is currently 47 and STILL finding her Butch identity. She is struggling also, and I really think that for those of us that are over 20 something, and came out after being raised to think that being heterosexual is the ONLY way, it's more of a struggle. I think it is somewhat harder for Butch or more female masculine centered women. They have been taught that it is not normal and ok to be anything other than feminine and they struggle. With their sexuality, their presentation, their acceptance with themselves.

I posted a great piece from Ivan Coyote(who is one HOT butch btw) about some of this. It is a journey and try to not be too hard on yourself. You can take whatever time you need to figure out what and who you are.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q7IzwUa_kI

 

I have been soft butch/chapstick for most of my life but didn't come out until two years ago. You could say that I kind of had an identity all along but never acted on it. I, like you, am a top (and my girlfriend has commented on that appreciatively) but love it when she surprises me (and boy did she last weekend!). She is butch but more comfortable when I initiate things. She has graciously let me use her as a road map to figure out how to be comfortable in my lesbian skin. I have been a willing student. :icon_redf

I learned early on that I wasn't willing to change who I was because I did that for 49 years acting as a straight person (though very much a tomboy). The years that I did try to conform to a rigid heterofeminine and fundamentalist religious (Christian) lifestyle were the most depressing of my life. Wearing dresses and make-up were never who I was.

So - be yourself. There is someone who appreciates you but make sure that you are the first one!

 

Fascinating reflection and explanation, Ms. Frog...thank you very much for going into that detail.

I have always felt lucky to have had parents that did not enforce rigid gender roles or behavior, but just let us be ourselves...and then as our sexuality took shape, accepted us for who we are. Like, writing that...here, when I know what a lot of you have gone through? I feel *amazingly* lucky and Blessed.

This probably doesn't need to be said, but if you have children? Learn from this: whether along gender lines, sexuality lines, religion lines, whatever, let your children be who they are, rather than what you wish for them. Also, regardless of what's gone before, you being you now will teach them self-acceptance and help them grow into themselves. (I know, I know, many of you are still worried about bullying and whatnot...I suspect the positives will outweigh the negatives...at least bear in mind that there *are* strong positives.)

Don't get me wrong...I sucked up plenty of messages from society as well. But life is a constant process of discovering yourself, hidden there under all those layers, shedding the bits that have been given to you or put on you, while keeping the parts that work or fit. It's this way for *everybody*. In its own way, *every* year is a new adolescence...or can/should be. When we stop growing, we start dying.

What you've done in coming out (even if only to yourself at this point) is given yourself permission to live, to experience adolescence a *first* time...and a second, and a third, etc.

Anyway, your explanation has helped me to understand the nature and source of the question. I think you're exactly right that it's not your lesbian identity you are forging...it's your identity as a person. Be Blessed, and enjoy the exploration! *hugs*

 

What a fascinating thread! Thanks LooseMoose, for initiating.

As I've progressed through the coming out process, I too have found myself in the same quandary. With the benefit of hindsight, here are my observations - strictly as pertain to myself.

Before I was officially "Out" but after I'd come out to myself, I think I went to an extreme. I had a need to present myself, though I was still effectively closeted. So I cut off my hair, adopted more 'butch' or perhaps 'soft-butch' characteristics. I think part of it was a need for expression and a small part of it was the need to rebel.

And that was before I even discovered all of the many classifications of lesbians that exist in the world... lipstick, chapstick, butch, stone, baby, soft butch, femme, boy, diesel dyke, flannel shirt, blue jean... you get the picture. Once I discovered this multitude of definitions, I struggled with where I fit in. I tried a few on for size and have slowly and progressively worked my way back to where and what I was (at least in a physical presentation) before I started down this road.

As I have worked my way out of the closet, and become more comfortable and accepting of myself, I have realized that my physical style is as fluid and changeable as my moods or my epicurean tastes. Some nights I feel like eating Italian, some nights I want Mexican, other times I'm in the mood for some good old mac & cheese or more frequently just prefer fish and/or vegetables. As much as my culinary tastes vary, my mood for high powered ultra femme business suits, pearls & stilettos, hippie skirts, beads & flip-flops, or make-up free in my teenage son's hand-me-down sweats & a comfie pair of Chucks also change. And that's ALL OKAY!

I am who I am. At any given moment in time. When I'm with my lover, I can top, I can bottom, or we can roll around in a play for power... or submission. That's the beauty of coming out to yourself. And accepting yourself. And finding the right partner. We all have different needs and different desires at any given moment in time, and we should all have the freedom to express those as we like.

Why go through all of this, with yourself, with society, if you're just pigeon-holing yourself into another stereotype? Be who you are, be comfortable in your own skin. Ultimately, it's the greatest gift you can give yourself.

---------- Post added 7th Jan 2015 at 08:54 PM ----------

Wow! LooseMoose!!! This is perhaps the best description of what kept me from realizing my own sexuality for so very many years. There was, in my own instance, a dearth of religious and procreative expectations associated with it as well, but your phrasing, your summation of the "ok-ish" is the greatest summation I've ever seen.

Hope you don't mind too terribly if I borrow this as I move forward in my own life...

---------- Post added 7th Jan 2015 at 09:05 PM ----------

:eusa_clap Bravo OOC73!!!! I heartily concur! :eusa_clap

 

I'm enjoying this thread.

I'm reminded of how I used to think basically the purpose of men was so that they could provide a settled, family life, much like that of my parents'. So to secure a husband I had to try and be demure and polite and pretty, i.e. wife material. My problem was that once I found someone who could potentially be a husband, and that was quite rare, I got rather aggressive in pursuing them for that end. So there was a weird dichotomy of trying to be passive, but yet I didn't act particularly passive in trying to reach the end goal of settling down. I feel sorry for my poor ex-boyfriend, who I was on-off with for about 4 years - I was obsessed with getting married as I thought he would fit into my whole scheme of a "traditional" marriage that I wanted so much. I also liked him because he was quite effeminate and could be attracted to him emotionally.

I find it strange it think of being with a guy physically now - as appearance wise they are just so "meh", and the thought of having their manhood anywhere near me is just weird. Looking back I really was missing out in favour of trying to be "normal"- and echoing what others said, sex wasn't that terrible that I realised that there was a richer and more fulfilling alternative. My first time with a woman it was like "Oh. So this is what it's like to find someone physically irresistible - you mean you don't have to ignore their body?"

I have found coming out so liberating in so many ways, again echoing what others have said - allowing masculine traits to have a voice, and freeing myself from what I have internalised to be an acceptable path for a woman. I feel freer to be in a relationship which enables me to more fully appreciate another human being in their entirety - not for some end, or where I have to ignore their gender or sexuality as a sexual being. (Definitely had a preference for effeminate asexual men).

 

This thread is amazing. I read it last night, thought about it all day, and came back tonight to soak in some more of it. I feel like the core of this conversation is that it is really really really important for everyone (lgbt and otherwise) to pay really close attention to who we are at our core and to live our lives in a way that honors/celebrates that core. And we really don't have ANY control over who we are at our core--it just is. This all seems so obviously true to me right now that it's almost hard for me to believe that I've spent most of my life not tuned into the fact that it might be REALLY important for my well-being to pay attention to who I am at my core and to live my life accordingly.

One teeny tiny example from my life--I have always hated carrying purses. I feel like a giant fraud and sort of secretly wonder if I just look ridiculous to everyone else because obviously it is ridiculous for me to carry a purse. Largely I have handled this by buying/using fancy expensive purses--in hopes that would help me feel more comfortable somehow. Actually that was my mom's approach when I was in my early teens and balking at using a purse--she would by me fancy expensive ones and try to make me feel special about my special purse. Uh, but yeah, clearly the answer is for me to STOP CARRYING PURSES. They just aren't me. At all. And that's OK. Seriously I can almost physically feel a weight lifting off of me at the simple thought of giving myself permission to never carry a purse again. CRAZY.

There are far bigger and more important bits of my core that were looooooong neglected and that I'm dealing with right now, and that just plain scare the hell out of me. I'm married to a man, and we have two very young children, and we were recently separated and are getting divorced. I VERY VERY often question if I am doing the right thing by ending our marriage, and this thread is helping me see more clearly the role that honoring who I am plays in all of this.

Thank you!

 

Yeehaw, drop the purse and get on with your weightless life. Lol. Never have carried a purse and I always felt like if I did I'd feel like everyone was looking at me like I was crazy. Weird that somebody else feels the same way. Backpacks and cargo pants have fit the bill for me and what would I carry in a purse but junk.

 

shoot, My damn purse is a ponytail holder. $2.50 set for life.

 

When I take my coat off in people's homes, I have to say, "It's kind of heavy." Otherwise they almost drop it from all the stuff in my pockets.

 

I love this! I think part of my issue is that I'm not really sure who I am at my core. I spent so many years trying to be perfect student/teacher/wife/mom person that there isn't a lot of me in me right now. Coupled with the fact that I have very few friends (not a pity thing - I just have never been a person who can keep up with a lot of friends), I just don't get out and do a lot. :trying to figure out who I am: