Religious

Hi,

Religous and spiritual are different things. Never confuse the two.

25. Jesus said, "Love your friends like your own soul, protect them like the pupil of your eye."

 

I agree with you Moguy, and what you are describing is how someone who really understands Christianity should react. but unfortunately, there are far too many people with a shallow understanding of their faith who see it only as a petty moralism that they can use to beat others over the head with. And I think that they will always find something to use to express their disapproval of anyone who doesn't meet their standards. it's unfortunate that this is what so many people seem to think of when the topics of religion or religious people come up.

 

Fred Phelps is a good example.

Everyday liars and frauds stand before congregations and bodies of people and lead them everyehere except to God.

"Phelps attempted and failed to gain city permits in Cheyenne and Casper to build a monument "of marble or granite 5 or 6 feet (1.8 m) in height on which will be a bronze plaque bearing Shepard's picture and the words: "MATTHEW SHEPARD, Entered Hell October 12, 1998, in Defiance of God's Warning: 'Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with womankind; it is abomination.' Leviticus 18:22"."

These guys come in 50 shades of gray, some mild, some hard line but all the same... frauds and liars.

 

This sums it up for me.

 

Hi,

I am happy for you but it is not everyone's experience. Many gays and straights have suffered at the hands of religion.

You should read things beyond the bible. The gospel of Thomas is a good example. The reason the bible excluded them was the compilation of the bible (what got in, what didn't) is because a politician wanted to solve a socio/economic problem.

Keep in mind Jesus was no fan of religious practise;

"6. His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed.""

Pretty easy to understand but does not support religious practice so it was kept out. Another truth;

'113. His disciples said to him, "When will the kingdom come?"

"It will not come by watching for it. It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' Rather, the Father's kingdom is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it.""

 

Though I am sure there are a multitude of "religious" people out there, my experience was with fundamentalist and "spirit-filled"/non-denominational Christianity. It was not a healthy life for me or mine. My son came out right after I left an abusive hetero relationship. His admission caused me to seriously consider my then current view of what God, Jesus, the Bible meant to me. After a long, arduous, and thought-provoking journey, I felt I had to leave. Knowing full well I was "different" most of my life, I came out ten years after my son did. I sometimes think that the deeper one is into something, when they leave, the farther away from their former life they want to run.

 

The underlying presumption of all religions seems to be to establish an authority to tell people how to live their lives and treat each other. IF there were a simplistic statement of behavior in them, sort of a Constitution, which stated principles as simple as "Treat everyone with respect no matter how their feelings or appearance differ from yours." "Never fight with anyone over material possessions." "Always share your bounty with others, and set up a government to make that happen by redistribution of wealth uniformly." etc etc.

Instead, we get these various "bibles" of one sort or another, which consist of a lot of ancient mumbo jumbo, multiply retold folk tales that purport to be semi-historical, descriptions of events which seem highly unlikely to ever have happened as related, along with admonitions to do this or that which make no sense whatsoever in the modern context. Very confusing to the average person, much less the less-than-average-moron, who then turn to clerics, preachers, volunteer "teachers", and money-focussed televangelists, who "interpret" (and I use this word with prejudice) all this often-unread and misunderstood information according to their own personal prejudices and biases, and then tell people in their own words how to live their lives. The people hear this jumbled "message from God" according to their own personal prejudices and biases, combine it with their own fear of eventually dying and not wanting to, faced by a universe which is so complex in its origins that they have no hope of comprehending it or where they came from, and come up with behaviors which are not very well behaved in many cases, because it is founded on no obvious rules or principles which they can understand logically. They see that the world actually operates very capriciously and that people often get rewarded for bad behavior much better than they do for good behavior, which stifles a sense of justice and fairness under the few rules which tell them to be "good". They look for someone to be mad at and take out their frustrations about their lot in life upon, and there we are, being different, and sometimes seeming to be doing better than they are, but in any event breaking the rules.

Perhaps if religions did really "make sense", and stated clear rules that seemed "fair" to most people, and if non-religious policies of law happened to coincide with those principles stated in religion, then people would be more accepting of each other, and the differing versions of us, including sexuality differences, would be more readily accepted by most people, including the devoutly religious. But, that is not how religions work, nor how many people act when involved with them. We get what we interpret as a message of mutual love and respect, treated as a prescription to live our lives according to a message of fear and risk of eternal damnation based on hate, from those hearing the same mixed message, but hearing it as a "threat from God" to toe the line as presented or else, with the ignorantly religious or simply ignorant furnishing the or else. The presence of religion in society seems to often be confounding the problem, or at least not helping to solve it. In some cases, it gives intolerant people or parents license based upon "divine authority" to abuse other people, even their own gay children, simply for being "different".

Without that perceived authority, it would be much more of a simple confrontation of difference in opinions about acceptable behavior. With it, the notion of "right and wrong" acquire a justification based on "messages from God" in the mind of the authoritarian imposer. I don't think that helps anyone, and the net result may be that we are better off without any religions in the world, than we are with them. Considering the current state of the world, particularly in the Middle East, there are some facts justifying my conclusions.

 

My mother used to take theology classes regularly and one of the themes that her favorite instructor used to stress was that the Bible, more than anything else, was the story of how the people came to recognize God's love and influence in their lives. While the progression of the Bible would appear that God started out as a pretty unpleasant deity that mellowed over time, the reality is that if you believe in one eternal God, God wouldn't change, but the way peopled viewed that God would. The earlier books generally presented God as vengeful and judging, and drew on stories that were part of the Middle Eastern culture, like the flood, and included old cultural aspects like human sacrifice. According to the instructor, for instance, the story of Abraham being told to sacrifice his son, and God then relenting, actually reflected the realization that sacrificing one's first born wasn't really necessary to appease a God that was loving and kind. Over time, the people began to see God more as an underlying strength and comfort in their lives, more than some kind of almighty control freak, judge and executioner.

I've always liked that idea, and I think that progression of gradually divesting the unnecessary (like human or even animal sacrifice, or more dramatically, the New Testament acceptance of the Gentiles despite not following all the Hebrew customs, dietary restrictions etc.), and eventual widening of the scope of the people of God to include everyone, not just those 12 tribes, is a great argument for the acceptance of gays by the faithful, because the over-arching theme is that we're all God's children.

Obviously if you throw social and political influences into the mix, you wind you wind up with religions that miss the point, or at least stray from it. Although the worst of them seem to come about when angry and judgemental people pick out the most angry and judgemental sections of the Bible and use them to model their lives and their religion after, rather than seeing the whole picture. And people use religion for many purposes--a guideline for life, certainly (sometimes unreasonably so), but also as a way to feel part of some historical progression of faith and belief, which isn't necessarily a bad thing in theory. The thing is that blind acceptance of a religion is no more constructive than blind condemnation of it. And gay people who have a strong faith can be a very positive influence on religion, by being open and accepting ourselves, so that eventually those who refuse to accept us will end up looking like the unreasonable people they are.

 

The major themes of the bible revolve around love and acceptance......

Hahahaha. You haven't read your bible have you? The book that endorses slavery, tells you to stone unruly children, says that homosexuality is an abomination, says that no matter how good you are, if you don't accept Jesus, you burn forever, says women should obey their husbands and shouldn't teach men, says to put witches to death, shows how God and his "chosen people" murder and kill countless people and the list goes on and on and on....

I won't say anymore though. Last time I expressed, honest and accurate views on religion I got banned for a while. As with most things, we all have freedom of speech until someone chooses to be offended by it at which point we are silenced.

Happy days

 

That's why I look at the Bible as a whole and see the progression of attitudes, rather than individual phrases and stories. That, and recognizing that it was written by people with their own cultural attitudes and biases based on their time and place. (For example, stoning your kids may have been advised early on, but certainly doesn't seem to have remained in favor!)

It's pretty easy to cherry-pick individual phrases to prove just about anything, whether it be that gays are evil or religion is evil. But unless you keep it in the context of the time and the compilation of authors and thoughts, I don't think we can see the whole picture. It would be like judging a 12-course meal by the type of pepper used in the appetizer.

 

You must keep in mind the bible is truncated and does not contain all the theology.

For example... Gospel of Thomas omitted from the bible but contains...

"114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life."

Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven."

Tr nslation ... Stand up for themselves against male superiority. Jesus was first woman's libber! Yet omitted from bible.

 

There are a LOT of priests and deacons like him out there. It's so wrong for anyone to just make blanket condemnations of any group of people. We have suffered so much of that as LGBTQ+ people, that it still surprises me when I see it on EC. But there is an ignore function, so when I see a lot of that I put that individual on the "ignore list" (a useful EC function that I have only had to use twice); so that I can focus on the ones that really have something constructive to say. If you have found a priest with whom you have a connection, and who "gets it," take advantage of that, and don't let anyone's pot shots take you down.

 

In some cases, religion is not spirituality and spirituality is not religion.

However, if a person claims to be religious, then they might also be spiritual in addition to being legalistic or doctrinal. If a person outright tells you they are spiritual but not religious, to me, it means they believe in a higher being and that they might not subscribe to a collective set of beliefs.

In response to the passive-aggressiveness, I was a member who took a pot shot. I stated that some clergy members, especially ones in celibate orders, have no business telling people what to do about their sex lives. They should just listen and allow the person make the decisions. That is, if you even want to take up the subject with them.

There are lots of people who are LGBT who file into their churches, synagogues, or temples and leave when the services are finished. They either don't need or don't want the confirmation or condemnation of their sexual choices and sexual lives.

I grew up in an organized religion and have retained both its doctrine and its spiritual thought, or a good deal of it. Because of the negativity, and wildly different viewpoints I've gotten based on who I spoke with, I decided to tune it out and to stop going. I gave it some thought. In the end, I actually found going to church to be very boring. How many times do I have to hear the same thing ... over and over? My parents still continued to attend and, once I began college, they noticed my attendance taper off and didn't care.

When it comes to advice on sexuality and sexual matters, I want secular advice. The way I look at it is that God put the genetics and/or the life situations to shape your sexuality in the master plan. Therefore, a person can't possibly be bad because of it.

I thought I'd share my two cents worth.

 

Hi Tightrope,

I agree with you whole heartedly.

Many "religious" take a position of superiority over those who are spritual but not into organized religion.

There are some here who use phrases like "people like you", talking down offensively to others who are spiritual but non-religious, and when they are told they are being offensive act as if THEY are the wounded party. Or as stated above those not attached to a religion need to be "pitied".

"Pitied"? Many straights pity us gays... Enough said.

I do not use the ignore feature for I am not an ostrich and I understand not all folks agree.

I will not comment or attack Wildside as we all know his situation regarding his work.

 

Hi All,

I want people to understand...

I was transitioning from closted/married to openly gay. I asked my brother for housing help and he agreed. I was quiet, respectful and helped out with chores while there. Over time my brother and his wife became homophobic.

Even though I had never had a friend to the house I was told I could not have friends over. This progressed to I could not have friends puck me up outside the house regardless of my visual disabilty and not driving at night. I had to listen to constant rants about gays not deserving equal rights while I bit my tongue. I was unemployed and unable to move. Finally I was told to leave by a specific date. I could not find housing and was forced to live with a 47 year old gay pedophile chasing 16 year olds.

This wa all due to the teachings of organized religion. Even "family ties" could not beat it.

Obviously I have lost my brother too.

So when people get all happy about organized religion and I differ... My experience with it differs.

 

I can appreciate a difference of opinion too. And I certainly don't think that any group gets a pass for bad behavior, LGBTs included. But I have no interest in hearing what the haters have to say, no matter who the target is of their venom. I've come under personal attack from one of them a couple months ago when I was actually just trying to reach out and understand where he was coming from. That individual was so loaded for bear, that he preferred to blast away rather than communicate. But we can show the same respect for both believers and nonbelievers that we expect for ourselves. Unfortunately, the IGNORE LIST is sometimes the only option, when it becomes clear that someone isn't interested in a conversation, but just wants to keep attacking us. Haters will be haters. :icon_bigg

 

Just so you know...

I am the one Wildside ignores. He was very rude refering to me as "people like you" in a superior manner and when I called him on it he began the above ongoing long running jabs at me.

There is no call for his behaviour except for I assume being clergy he is at odds with his doctrine and I am an easy outlet for his inner conflict.

Sadly, when you know the full truth it simply reinforces what I experienced at the hands of organized religion. Read it again... Do you see love and acceptance or do you see arrogance and superiority?

Sorry I have to lay this out publicly but I am tired of his attacks and want all to see what is going on.

Again, sorry.