Obviously a lot of us grew up with pretty conservative upbringings and backgrounds. I know I did. I was a staunch conservative/libertarian into my late 20s, then sorta apolitical/libertarian drifting towards centristy Democrat to the frothing leftist agitator I am now. Sidebar: would you believe it was a sermon at mass that helped that last jump? Don't get me wrong, I'm still an agnostic, but I know a good story when I hear one. Anyway, I try to see things from as many sides as I can, as I think shows up in my political affiliations over the years. I read a ton, and try to listen to other people. I'm also pretty numbers and analytic driven. I want to have a discussion about political affiliation and the lgbt community. I've heard people here very upset from their interactions with gay liberals. Right off the bat, out queer people identify as liberal and very liberal at rates approximately twice that of the population at large. If you are newly out, as you venture out into the community, its pretty likely that you'll run into more liberals than you have before! and some of them will be real assholes, cause, you know...they're people. Liberals and conservatives do a garbage job talking to each other these days. Mostly feels like both sides think the other one wants to intentionally destroy the country. I hate every aspect of that. I feel like, we've already spilled out all of our guts in this forum anyway. I'd like to think with all of that that we've all earned some mutual respect and understanding that should transcend that perhaps? On such petty bs as politics? Without yelling soros and Koch brothers at each other? Anyway, tldr.
Yes, as I've said before I'm a conservative. My party today would label me as a Rhino l suppose, because I 'm an old fashioned Rockefeller Republican. I'll admit that my politics are evolving. All I ask is that you show me, rather than throw around insults and party line. Contrary to popular belief, many of us are thoughtful, reasonable, charitable people. We may even have the same goals, simply different ideas as to how to achieve that end. If you tell me how to think or insult my beliefs, you will not get very far. I'll just dig in my heels. Maybe it's not a mature reaction, but it is an honest answer. All I want is to be heard, to be able to listen to reasonable arguments, and treated politely. Thank you, Ceiling Fan, for bringing this up.
I guess my question is, which republican do you see that embodies that Rockefeller republican ideal? The parties have shifted quite substantially over the last 40-50 years. The GOP especially has become much more ideologically centered, where you used to have a pretty socially liberal wing. I mean, even the last Rockefeller in the Senate was a democrat.
For myself, there were never any republicans or conservatives in my family. I don't think I even knew or understood any belief system other than liberal democrat until I went to college. My mother is the only one in the family left in her generation. It came up recently, politics, and she said she never once voted for any candidate who wasn't a democrat and she believes that no one else in her generation did. For her, FDR and JFK were gods.
Huh...weren't you the very one who wanted to ban politically-themed threads in this forum, CF? There was never much doubt of where my politics would be, regardless of what my sexuality turned out to be. Although my mother's side of the family has a strong very conservative faction within it, both my parents are quite liberal, as is most of my father's side of the family. I was raised to believe in the innate value of all people, and to love rather than to fear that which we oppose...in short to have compassion. To me, that describes the liberal side of politics much better than the conservative side...although these days I don't find this borne out terribly in any serious political party. I'm affiliated with the democrats only because of their historical philosophy...I don't think they live up to it terribly, and I tend to support whoever I think will best foster love and hope, rather than fear and hate. It's often a terribly hard decision, because so few people run explicitly on those platforms. I don't know if this is the kind of discussion or disclosure you were looking for, CF.
Socially liberal, economically conservative. Canada has 3+ major parties and I've been all over the place voting wise.
Hi, In my opinion it is how you stack your priorities. If equality and civil rights is the foundation (lfe, liberty, pusuit of happiness), which it is for me, and all else flows from that, I can only rationally support a party that supports that basic foundation. If others place fiscal affairs and politics first, putting civil liberties elsewhere they will choose differently. It is a telling debate about priorities. I belong to no political party. I enjoy referendum votes where clean, single issue laws are placed before the public, though society can be very misguided.
I'm not at all interested in the type of political "discussion" that was going on in that last thread and if that's the best we can do, we should certainly not have them here. Seriously, when in response to me asking if perhaps accusing liberal gay people of just being part of a mindless "groupthink" is not exactly the best way to get some understanding for a gay conservative voice, is a long, accusatory DM demanding from some one (not even sure it's exactly me) an apology for the way that they feel they've been mistreated by liberal gays then we've gone around the bend for sure. People, including of course the lgbt community, are entitled to whatever political beliefs they want to have. But for people to show up into that community, and to not understand why most other people in that community might look on conservative values with a bit of a "side eye" is insane. If we want to talk about how politics has shaped our coming out, well I can certainly tell you that conservative values had a lot to say about why it was so much harder and more painful than it should have been. And I've yet to hear someone say "man, it was really hard for me to come out, with my liberal parents who accepted homosexual people as equals since before I was born". So, it's not some gay groupthink that's making conservatives often feel uncomfortable around a lot of other gay people. It's ignoring the history of the last 30+ years where conservatives actively have, and continue to, make things harder for gay people on civil rights. This isn't even opinion, that's just a solid fact. I think it's great that there are out, gay conservatives. It means it's a lot harder to have these rights taken away. But let's not pretend that both sides are equal on this. If I want my intelligence insulted, I know plenty of other places on the web where I can get into shouting matches about the scandal du jour, and I damned sure don't want to find that here.
Cycling fan- Wow! It really looks like you interpreted the prior posts with how you perceive the world, and not in the balanced way in which the posts were written. I can certainly understand if you are still struggling with some of your conservative views and reconciling them for yourself. But to reflect your perception compared to what was actually written is simply a disservice to those who were engaged in a productive debate. The result of which, no further discussions on the topics are allowed. All of our loss.
Personally I've never thought of a political platform or a religious doctrine as something that impacted me negatively. Ultimately they are words on paper or thoughts in heads it's individuals who have chosen to put them into action how they've seen fit. I've witnessed homophobic attitudes from every walk of life be it conservative/Christian to atheist/liberal. Do things get more attention in a negative light from one side than the other absolutely but to me it's much more about a failed system as a whole than a party in particular. Things such as lgbt issues as hugely important that they are, are used more for distraction purposes than anything in my mind. Each side picks a side and seemingly panders. Very few liberals who are pro equality echoed that sentiment a decade ago. Heck watch what the President had to say about gay marriage during his first term. Is it possible that he and many others simply have had their minds opened over time absolutely. It's also possible that they saw that public opinions had changed over the years and decided to hop on board. As the public continues to grow in it's belief the we are all in fact equal it's inevitable that it will become a non issue to all but the furthest of the right. At this point the country is so divided down the middle each side is pandering so much to what they believe their base believes it's next to impossible to tell how any of them really feel about equality or any issue for that matter. Had many of the same liberals that now gleefully wave the rainbow flag been doing so when the acceptance through out the nations population had been far away from 50/50 I'd be more inclined to take them at their word. I know a number of people who vote conservative do so because the issues that matter most to them personally they feel are more represented. Most feel that it is simply a matter of time before the vast majority of the nation sees things through similar eyes on issues such as ours. Most that I know who vote liberal when pressed hold some beliefs that are often better represented by the republican parties but to them personally the social issue are of a greater time sensitive importance. Ultimately when pressed few feel based on all issues either side adequately depicts all that it is most important to them at the time. It's a damned if you do damned if you don't mentality many feel from either side in a two party system.
Don't twist what I said. This seems to be a particular issue with you. I am not struggling with any of my conservative views. I struggle against a conservative ideology that has been a pervasive force against gay rights. if you are going to be an out gay conservative, you have to understand that you're in the minority and twisting people's words around when they point out the simple facts as to why that's the case is a pretty crap way to deal with it.
... and already, the thread is starting to go south. If people can't keep it civil and respectful, then this thread, too (along with any others like it), is going to get closed.
Let me be the first to say it then and truthfully I've heard it a ton from others online and read numerous articles regarding it. My parents are very liberal have always touted acceptance of everyone and when I came out (through a drunken email) was met with pure horror. Very much the attitude of it's more than acceptable for everyone's kids but my own. Which resulted in me quickly hopping back in the closet and playing it off as a drunken joke. As far as my experience has ever indicated this is something that was by no means exclusive to me. In fact there was an article the other day published on one of the bigger news website regarding a liberal teacher who had panicked so much when both his children had come out that he'd made them go to therapy before eventually realizing it was he who needed to speak with someone. I do get the perception particularly if it was based on your own experiences but homophobia is by no means exclusive to one party or one ideology.
And it's up to each of us, regardless of affiliation to use our votes and whatever other support we may be able to provide to push not just each political party, but their underlying voter base, to evolve their views so acceptance can actually start at the root level - bottom up, rather than top down. If the base expresses their views of acceptance, all of the politicians will follow. As you, I grew up in a liberal household; but I did not dare come out when I was still under my parents roof. My parents were so focused on their reputation and social standing, more so than what they claimed was their liberal beliefs. ---------- Post added 15th Mar 2015 at 09:03 PM ---------- .....hmmm, and this overall discussion has now helped me figure out why I have been so focused on this debate. As it was only as I typed the above that I realized what was nagging at me. Very productive. Thanks!
I think I'm not expressing myself clearly. I'm going to do my best to not participate in any political threads here in the future. They're not good for me. There's a baseball site I refuse to go to any more after it became dominated by the most asinine political discussions. Anyway, my original point was "groupthink is a pretty insulting way to categorize people just because you disagree. People have actual legitimate stories, and that's not groupthink" to which I then basically added "I'm so tired of how you conservatives always pull that move". I'd like to retract that last part and just keep that first part, and I'll try not to just go ahead and do the same thing back that made me mad in the first place.
I, and I think others as well, would hate not to have your input and perspective. Nothing wrong with debating different view points. It's really beneficial to everyone to be challenged; myself included. And you bring a perspective and challange that adds to the discussions!
As has been stated it's pretty much inevitable with topics like this and religion to take a negative/heated turn. Even with the best intentions on both sides they are often viewed with an emotional component which makes it incredibly difficult to not take things personally. I enjoy hearing other perspectives on things and often find the opportunity to see things from a different point of view interesting. It's easier for me than most as I wasn't raised in a particularly religious household so what exposure I had allowed me to see both a positive and negative side of what I'd been privy too. And with politics I've certainly got my views and opinions some that are shared with each party and others far to the left of many liberals but generally I dislike the entire system and the vast majority of politicians so it makes it easier for me I would imagine.
