Well done Ireland proud but also sort of empty

Well it resonates with me quite well. Most people won't understand our struggles because they can't relate to it, they would just say "oh he's our friend/colleague, oh lets make him feel good and pat ourselves on the back by voting YES and at the same time completely disregard the amount of hell we as a collective society had to put them through!" And a lot of people are going to fall into the trap of "well they got their marriage now, why are they still whining?". All this progress makes our struggle less visible, true, but nevertheless I prefer it over stagnancy/no change in attitudes.

 

Is the world really accepting LGBT rights just because marriage is legal? To me, it's seems to be a small step, not the solution. Don't get me wrong, I am happy to see marriage equality progress. However, this seems to be just the tip of the iceberg in achieving true equality.

Discrimination is still deeply rooted in society. Institutionalised Religions still reject homosexuality. bully's in schools still exist, families are still kicking out their children when they come out.

Marriage equality is not the end game, it's just the beginning of what will continue to be a very long struggle for true equality.

My biggest concern is that we actually see a slow down of true progress as people believe equality has been achieved, when we still have a long way to go. Complacency can be everyone's worst enemy; and Marriage Equality risks everyone falling into such a trap.

 

Speaking as someone who's been heavily involved in the campaign here in Dublin, I can tell you that this was no small step. It was the last step of legal equality, a HUGE step towards normalizing LGBT young people.
The entire Irish LGBT community (at home and abroad) has been granted, in the eyes of the law, equality to our straight countrymen.
I wouldn't call it a tip of the iceberg either, people all over the world have been fighting to normalize LGBT relationships and people for decades. This is by no means the first or last step on the path to true equality, but that doesn't make it any less signifigant

 

Not trying to diminish how big a step it is. But the reality is it's just a step nonetheless.

Not sure if you have statistics, but compare homeless youths next year to homeless youths this year in Ireland after the law has been in effect for a full year. It will be interesting to see what the statistics show.

In the UK, the number of required beds for homeless youths actually increased materially after equal marriage went into effect.

Maybe it's an aberration; or maybe there is a connection given a possible false sense of security kids may develop thinking marriage equates to elimination of Discrimination. Only to find out their families still discriminate.

As well, look at what's happening in North Amercia. Hopefully the Supreme Court will rule in favor of marriage equality in short order, standardizing which is already accepted in the majority of states. But with the sweeping changes, also come "religious freedom" laws to protect those who want to continue to discriminate based on religious grounds.

I hope and wish I am wrong.

 

To the OP, one thing of great value in my readings on stoicism is fatalism about the past and the present (it specifically excludes the future).

This derives from their overarching goal of focusing on what we can control, either fully or partially. It took a great collective effort on the part of many to achieve this tremendous accomplishment, but a lot of it came also from things that no one anticipated. Ireland invested heavily in education in the past few decades, and profited from it greatly until the financial collapse of 2008. Despite that setback, they also bounced back more rapidly than others in the European context.

One side-effect of education is that eyes were opened, liberal attitudes were acquired. The church also obliged by completely discrediting themselves with their child-abuse scandals. There is a concept in stoicism of amor fati, or loving one's fate and when you can achieve that, whatever happens, joy becomes easier.

All of these were fateful events. The thing to understand is that there was widespread discrimination and injustice, but the doors opened just enough for LGBT activists to force it to open further.

It is natural to feel cheated, but that is a past one can no longer control. The stoics will then ask, well, if you can't change what happened, why be upset about it? It takes a lot of mental energy when negative emotions take over, why not instead use that energy to focus on now (this day, this fateful moment) and on what we can control. And you seem to be very much on that path! As on an ancient map, There Be Joy!

 

The gay community needs to be careful with this right here.
the whole, this isnt enough, we need more thing is a seriously sour note when it comes to civil rights in the U.S. With the history of Civil rights here, nothing is ever enough, every thing gained opens the door for one more fight until eventually its no longer equal, its privileged.
And, I cant speak of other countries but here, when the Gay rights activists first tried to equate gay rights to blacks rights it set off some serious alarms that slowed progress.
then when every minority under the sun and white women started getting added to the list of privileges granted to to the descendents of slavery, it became very obvious that this was nothing more than a revenge plan against white males. White males that had nothing to do with the atrocities levied against minorities that were long gone from this earth.

So when you win such a huge battle for your right to marry, don't toss it aside and the next day run out and start fighting for more. acceptance will come, it will be gained, the proof is in the vote. Might not be fast enough for you, but it will come faster naturally than it will come if you try to force it.

 

I completely agree, and would compare this even to the first moon landing in July, 1969. Let me explain; when that was achieved, and the astronauts returned home safely, an expression arose in America going like this: "Well if we can send a man to the moon and back, why cant we...".

I think this is precisely what happened; this is indeed HUGE. It grants a whole new level of legitimacy to the LGBT+ community. It certainly has transformed things here in Canada, where same-sex marriage has been legal across the land since 2005 (10 years already!), it is simply taken for granted that same-sex couples are free to be who they are. Nevertheless, there are still many areas, even here in liberal Montreal, where it would be unwise for two guys to hold hands...if we could send a man to the moon and back...

There is still a lot to do for full acceptance, but this landmark event, made more significant when one observes just how far Ireland has come, will make further progress much, much easier.

 

But what opposition was there to the first moon landing? The achievement was universally supported as a feat for mankind (ok, maybe the Russians wanted to get there first). While it was Huge, Not sure I agree with that analogy.

Re Bi in MD, agreed, continued progress can not be forced. It will continue to take time. And progress should require diligence, consistency and care.

And while the equal marriage movement came about blazing fast over the past few years (although Massachusetts got it right quite some time ago), discrimination has been around for what seems to be eternity.

What it means, however, is that the LGBT community should not let its guard down and think all is won whereby discrimination has ended.

The far right will continue to fight, there is always a risk that momentum could go the other way.

I will be thrilled when/if the U.S. Supreme Court rules just the same as Ireland celebrates (and I will certainly look take advantage of those new rights just the same), but I will also be realistic to recognize that we can not afford to now become complacent.

 

Highway is correct. Even if marriage equality is achieved via Subprime Court decision in the USA, it is not the same victory as identifying homosexuals as a protected class, as was essentially done with blacks and women in former years, so there is no employment protection, housing protection, etc. Homosexuals can still be fired or evicted without cause for simply being themselves. It is hard for ME to understand why we can't just get one sweeping decision which says discrimination of all kinds based on sexual orientation is illegal. This perpetual delay in receiving justice in all matters is extremely frustrating, and without justification, other than legal/technical reasons, and the unwillingness of certain "conservative" neanderthals in the court to understand the definition of "equal", and their unwillingness to do anything "bold", because being bold and functional goes against the tradition of SC foot-dragging.

 

The analogy was more about the aftermath than the main event, unless one considers gravity to have been the opposing force . In the aftermath, the moon landings set up impossible expectations about what was possible at the time, which is the point that I was trying to make.

Both success and failure are impostors, and indeed it is important to be careful when assigning meaning to either. I often fear success more than failure for all the reasons stated above, but complacency and resting on one's laurels is a major one.

Nevertheless, this is a huge win for the good guys. Already it is forcing the Catholic Church, in Ireland and elsewhere, to do some serious soul-searching, perhaps, finally there can be some middle ground or at least an attempt to seriously tone down religious opposition to homosexuality. Of course, one can only hope!

 

I am going to a wedding in the fall in San Francisco (straight wedding). The wedding is for my partners cousin whom he is very close with. She is marrying an Irish Catholic man whom's family is very influential in the church (I understand the father has visited with the Pope on occasion).

I asked him if the brides family knew that we were coming, but we do not have any idea. That in of itself should be interesting.

Nonetheless, I am looking forward to having the opportunity to have a discussion and understand where the church's mindset really is.

If everyone recalls, the church did attempt to send an olive branch about a year ago, but after condemnation from local parishes, quickly retracted the comments.

I do agree with you greatwhale, the win will further the need for the church to continue its soul searching. Which it appears has begun. Baby steps......

Now what compelling initiative can get the hypocritical religious right in the U.S. to do the same? How many more scandals of homophobia closeted politicians or child molesting family zealots does it need to take until they wake up and smell the coffee?

Congrats to Ireland, may the U.S. follow through in the next month with a positive Supreme Court decision (although if it were to go to a vote as Ireland did, the decision would have already been made).

 

There are still more things to fight for in many places. I think wanting to externalize the blame for you not coming out earlier is a way to let yourself off the hook. If they had voted against it, you would have felt justified in hiding all those years. But I'm guessing you knew that deep down already.

 

I tend to think we are expressing similar objectives, but just with different approaches. Where as you feel cheated by the bast and want action as a result, I want to look forward and feel there is still more to be done so others never need to experience the discrimination we all have. We get to the same place.

 

I am responsible for me.

I allowed the false belief that being gay was a choice. I allowed my family to rob me of my integrity. I fought God telling Him He made a big mistake with my creation. I allowed society to dictate how I was to act.

"Je ne regretted rien."

I had my straight card punched at every possible turn. I have a lovely family. I married an incredible woman who still in some measure loves me. I've a better spiritual relationship with my God. All things that matter. What I have lost is dross: social position, money, privilege, false friends. I still have my good name. My stock went up with some, because of the courage it takes to come out, ironically, this from my straighter male friends; those more traditionally masculine.

The only battles I want to fight at this point is for the rights of others. I've enjoyed those perks, others have not. I've paid my dues, in full. I do not want to be seen as needing extra rights, reparations. I don't want to see "queer studies" programs at university, we are to already integrated into society. AIDS made clear to the world our contribution to society, the arts. We should not put ourselves into a position victims, we are stronger than that. We've endured from within. Don't let a few religious bigots hang on us a label of victims.

Sorry, I missed where I was going with this and got up on my soapbox. Glean what's good from it and discard the chaff.

 

Yes, I think you are a little weird. But then everyone is as well.

Nobody is saying "you got this, now get over yourselves" at all. This victory is huge and will influence other countries, and it will now happen sooner rather than later. It is MAJOR. And if you look at those people in Ireland in the victory pictures, they are bight looking, youngish, older, and very very happy. It is very hard to argue with those happy pictures.

The catholic church has been rebuked, and then slapped hard in the face on their own turf. This is also big news and a very important step in progress. Religion is one of our worst enemies, as they give a legit voice to the haters.

Once more gay folks are marring and being seen in more places by folks who don't know and understand them, it sends a positive message to them about gays and then more change then happens. But it takes us being seen and understood, and same sex marriages is the best way to be seen. Not the only way to be seen in a positive light, but a major public way.

Some religious groups have flat out stated that they have no problem with gays, if they would just keep it to themselves. Other have said that they don't mind gays doing their own things privately, but stay private because they don't want it made to look normal, and it could influence other people to become gay. So the hatred is deeply embedded in these backwoods right wing nuts.

The only way out of this is through educating people, and the best way to educate is to be seen in a positive light. Same sex marriage is the best, and most powerful way to communicate this positive state of being (not just an image), and be seen to be just like everyone else.

So no, the religious, rural, and older folks have not given up and handed us this victory at all. We got this from the younger generation, and the more informed generation. I think the informed people are so so due the disconnectedness of the internet and the devices everyone is now carrying around. They spread the word faster than ever. And they have gay friends. But that is another topic in another thread.

So for anyone to feel that this is an empty victory, or a minor win, they need a reality check.

I remember when nobody was out except the really very obvious fems who could not make any claims of being straight anyway. All images of gays portrayed in pictures were negative in some way. All weird looking guys - all unhappy, and unlovable. This is the images the bible thumpers wish to remain constant. And at every win in the same sex marriage battle, we are seeing more and more images of happy normal well adjusted people of all ages and races, and some very highly educated, some very rich and some poor too. So the images we are now seeing is also a very positive sign. The pictures from Ireland last weekend were particularly bright cheerful and colorful. Those silver YES balloons over the rainbow flags, I mean when you see that image, with the very happy smiling young people who don't look any different than anyone else in the civilized world, it's very powerful, and very hard to say that their happiness is not a big deal, and that there is reason to feel empty.