true change?

Some people just think about them as the "normal" ones and then they just compare others and start to think that being different is not right. That's easy philosophy, people have to see how does that make them look.

 

I was just on a flight reading an article about racism in gay culture. My guess is the proportion of discrimination is relatively similar whether gay or straight.

Also, Skiff, I sense your baiting me a bit on this one. As I have stated, whereas equal marriage is a great advancement for the LGBT community, I have argued that it is only the tip of the iceberg! True anti discrimination requires so much more work. Where you reference discrimination to a glacier; mine is to an iceberg - either way they seem to coincide

 

onthehighway is right about this. Marriage equality is only chipping one piece of ice off the iceberg. The other discriminatory aspects such as housing and employment are other large chunks that still need to be worked on as legal issues, to start breaking the whole icepack up. The part under water is changing the "hearts and minds" of the public, to align with the moral aspects represented by the changes of the laws which represent the correct moral behavior of equal treatment in all aspects. That is something which will take generational times to happen, just as it is only partially completed with respect to racial issues and women's issues, and there is always backsliding along the way, because of sleazy politics and politicians trying to exploit hate and fear as personal political tools. Then there are the primitive religious aspects of all this; don't get me started on that.

 

Social change and the law don't always move together, but usually it is the law that lags behind, as legislators catch up with public opinion.

I grew up in England in the 70s and 80s. I recall the National Front, a racist group with quite a high profile in the 70s. I remember shops that wouldn't serve black people. That is simply unthinkable now. Likewise, my parents were unthinkingly homophobic. They had never known gay people. It was just their generation. My father is dead now, but my mother's views on homosexuality have changed totally. I think it is because she is addicted to soap operas, and they have all had gay storylines, with gay people presented in a positive light. That, maybe more than anything else, has shifted perceptions.

So I don't accept your premise Skiff (if I have understood it correctly). There has been huge and positive social change in my lifetime. The idea that gay people could ever marry would have been unthinkable even 20 years ago. Now it is generally accepted.

 

I am sitting having a pint at a gay pub in Copenhagen. Copenhagen was the first city in the world to recognize legal rights for gay couples ~ in the late 80's!

This is a city that seems to have their priorities straight and is as welcoming as any city I have ever been. They have the tip of the iceberg and then some. A role model for the rest of the world.

 

Move to Europe! Definitely more civil over here

 

I don't think that it's fair to say that civil rights protections "haven't started" - a number of states have laws on the books banning discrimination (in employment, housing, etc) on the basis of sexual orientation, and fewer (but still a decent number) have laws on the book banning discrimination based on gender identity and expression.

The media picks up on all of the negative aspects (i.e. those states that don't have such laws on the books, and those that are passing these so-called "religious freedom" laws), and not on what progress we have made and what we do have (which makes sense - however people seem to forget about that which we do have)

 

I'd say in Canada the social change favourable to gays is overall sincere. Even in evangelical churches the feeling is growing that it is morally wrong to deny gays rights,
sexual orientation may well have been set at birth and change therapy does not work.
Some are even coming out in favour of gay marriage and adoption, but complete acceptance of that is probably still a generation away.

My nephews say there are still gay jokes in school, but it's not as bad as it used to be.

One attitude which is prevalent is feeling sorry for gays which I don't think is very affirming.

However, I will say in my opinion, gays are not hated by any means and are genuinely welcome in Canada. Even my elderly parents interacted happily with some gay neighbours, treating them no differently than others, and even working with and socializing with them on occasion despite a large age difference. They didn't mind one of them coming over in drag costume on Hallowe'en nor the occasional loud gay party. Mom wasn't too thrilled though with one guy regularly sunbathing in his skimpy pink thong in the backyard. "That's a bit much" she said, but would have said that of any hetero man or woman too. LOL!

 

Well, in th US, politicians still feel a need to pander to the far right, where they are no where near ready to accept. And yet, every month we seem to see another homophobic elevangical either get caught with their pants down or come out.

The pending Supreme Court decision might be a major victory for marriage equality, but I am concerned about a potential massive backlash resulting from it.

 

I live in Indiana. If any of you follow politics, you will remember that the governor recently tried to push through "religious protection" laws, which among other things was a law pretty much saying that businesses could discriminate against LGBT folk. It didn't surprise me, but what was surprising was the immediate and severe backlash. Pence thought that he had enough christian right leaning backing to defeat any naysayers, but there was so much noise made that he pretty much had to neuter his anti - gay law. Businesses were threatening to walk out of the city. The NCAA, whose headquarters are in Indianapolis, made vague threats of leaving.
Still though, as a general rule this state is extremely conservative, as is the rest of this area of the nation (the exception would of course be larger cities) and to be honest I don't know if it would ever catch up. I still have to walk out of conversations at work when they start throwing around racist jokes. I would love to experience the kind of openness that is described as occurring in large cities.
Just curious....but why is it that Europe seems to be so much more open about sexuality, race, etc.?

 

One word: Puritans

 

I was pleased to see Hilary announced as part of her campaign that anti discrimination would be part of her platform. I am going to enjoy watching these debates as the elections progress!

The two sides are definitely drawing lines in the sand. The debates will get ugly I suspect, but they will be extremely beneficial nonetheless.

 

I am sorry really that being gay has become such a political football. It seems to have become the touchstone issue in the culture wars. Why is that? I don't want my sexuality to be a defining issue for people to parade their liberal credentials/religious orthodoxy.

 

I do believe a national debate is healthy. That is how change occurs. And the debate takes many forms. Whether it is in movies, on TV, reported in the news, discussed at school, by the water cooler at the office and, where legal change is warranted, in politics.

I share your concern, why should anyone care about my sexuality when it does not impact them and why does it need to be part of an election cycle. But in reality, I for one am very comfortable with being on the right side of history, and as such I am willing to b uncomfortable if that results in positive change for all LGBT.

 

It is a political football because it can be used as a divisive issue in politics, to draw some people to vote one way or the other, and to distract them from the important issues that have significant monetary value to the people at the top with money, who are pulling the strings on the marionettes we call politicians. When you are the guy in a leather recliner at 45,000 feet in a G650, you can do whatever the hell you want to do sexually speaking; no one is going to be able to stop you with that kind of money. The important thing to them is to stay in control of the government by getting the politicians whom they own elected, so they can get the legislation they want to stay at the top of the food chain, where they can have any prostitute, any drugs, any residency status, and any property they want, anywhere they want in the world. The rich are not like they rest of us, and they intend to stay that way, keeping us bickering amongst ourselves about social issues they are effectively exempt from having to worry about.