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Taking too long

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by alittlesun, Sep 11, 2015.

  1. alittlesun

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    I didn't want to drag all this out in my welcome thread, but really the main reason I joined was because I saw the LGBT Later in Life subforum and thought, "That's me!" Once I got over having attached my sense of self to something called "...Later in Life" (how can I be over 30, gosh), I decided that I needed to talk a bit about what I'm going through.

    I'm pretty sure that once I understood anything about sexuality, even in the kind of clinical way as a kid, I had a strong feeling that I wasn't straight. I don't mean to project anything into the past, and I know that because of social attitudes, it's probably normal for people to experience anxiety over possibly being different. But the relevant point is that once I started to feel sexual and romantic attraction, right from the start, I experienced it with boys and girls, and it was terrifying. I felt like I couldn't control myself, like this was an outside force almost. Outwardly, even then, I supported gay rights, but, and I am ashamed of this, I couldn't support them for myself. It was okay for other people to be gay, but not me. While that's excusable for a young teen in the 90s, I kept it up for decades. I knew I was attracted to women, I had intense emotional relationships with a few women that sometimes crossed over into physical contact. Sometimes I would come close to admitting to myself that I wasn't straight, whatever I was, and that I needed to accept that if I wanted to be happy. But I always chickened out. I backed away from the women I had feelings for, and because they weren't out either and we never discussed anything about what we felt or were doing (I have no idea if any of them would have identified as lesbian or bi, maybe they felt the same as me, oh well). My relationships with men have been... weird, to be honest. Most of my closest friends are men. I can feel a very intense physical attraction toward men. But I can't seem to do both, emotional and physical, at the same time, like I can with women. I don't know if that's just a problem with me or if it means anything or what. But, it means that most of my relationships have been difficult: I've been difficult. I've been emotionally distant. I don't like it, it doesn't make for long-lasting relationships, and I feel like a jerk. I dealt with it because I didn't think I had any choice. I'd already accepted that there was something "wrong" with me that couldn't be fixed, and I just had to limp through life pretending to be "normal" so why should I expect to have happy, fulfilling, honest relationships? Part of the problem is that I would often fantasize about women while I with guys. I would try to fight it, but sometimes I would give in, and either way it made me feel weird and unhappy and ashamed. Not just for wanting a woman like that, but for being what felt dishonest with someone who was being genuinely open and caring with me. I've been lucky in my taste and judgement. I don't put up with asshole guys, I always talk openly about what I like, what I'll do and won't do, and I expect the same. The guys I've actually dated, as in gone out with more than once and done more than kiss, have been so kind, so loving and understanding and respectful, and they really deserved better than someone couldn't let them in. I don't want to keep doing that.

    But, as time has gone by, and I've hemmed and hawed and tried to keep hiding myself, I also started to tell myself that it was too late. As if there was some magical Coming Out Age, and if you missed it, well, that was it. They wouldn't let you in the club, you were just a fake and you were fooling yourself. I know it sounds absurd to bounce between feeling guilt for pretending to be straight, and then hesitating because maybe I was just fooling myself and I really was straight. It's a mess, I can't begin to explain. And yet, because I hadn't come out, I could keep putting it off, and the longer I put it off the more difficult it became to see how I could come out. Even I accept myself, we all have these identities that are almost assigned too us, without asking, which people assume we'll always have, as if we owe it to them. And with sexuality, people assume, by default, that you're straight. And the way that it's perceived, the fact that it's not a "tangible", inherited identity... I know it will hard to change people's perception of me. Right now, it looks like this herculean task and it's so intimidating. Like, I feel like even if I told people, they wouldn't really believe me. I'd have to prove it, and I'd have to keep on proving it, and I don't want to do that. I don't think that's a rational worry, but there it is. And of course, it isn't just about people I already know. I worry about being accepted by other LGBTQA people, or judged for being so slow to admit what I feel, and for not having the courage to just come out all at once after all this time. I just don't feel like a woman who's over 30 and is just now beginning to think about maybe being honest with herself sounds very promising, as a friend or a girlfriend.

    And for what has to be my pettiest concern.... I'm not that concerned with pleasing male expectations, but I do know what they are and I can rely on them. If I want to get a guy's attention, I know how I might show it and how I might catch his. But I don't know about women, even though I am one and I should know, right? But I don't know what women look for in women, physically, I don't know how to behave. I don't know, I mean, I'm letting myself notice women and I'm terrified that I'll be caught staring, like some rude guy. I haven't, thankfully! But it does feel weird, as if I'm breaking some kind of code.

    Which brings me back to something serious. Because of my feelings I've often felt uncomfortable around women. Sometimes, I think it's the assumption that it's a non-sexualized space, and I feel like my desires and thoughts are wrong, that I'm violating some kind of... not "safe space" exactly, but, again, as if I'm being dishonest. As if I don't belong. I don't quit know how to articulate it, but it sometimes feels as if my attraction toward women alienates me from female society, because, at least it seems to me, a certain amount of female society is based around bonding over being away from a sexualized space, not being regarded with active, real desire. I think the real issue is just that, unfortunately, in our society desire is treated as an inherently demeaning thing, and many straight men are taught that in a way their desire for a woman demeans that woman. It's just sexism, I know that, but how do I fit in this picture? I'm definitely not attracted to all women, but I guess it's like the one straight guy hanging out with an otherwise female friend group: he's cool as long as everyone thinks of him as a "guy" and not a "man" but there's always that suspicion that maybe he really is a "man." That doesn't make sense, I'm sorry, I am just getting over the flu so posting this probably isn't a good idea. I'm still kind of loopy.

    I think that's a large enough wall of text. Sorry if this doesn't make any sense! I just wanted to get this out somewhere.
     
  2. High Art

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    I relate to so much of this. Welcome to ec :slight_smile:
    You definitely aren't alone here. The confusion, the guilt, the feeling like it's too late... all seem pretty normal in your situation/our situation.
    Thanks for posting. It's always nice to hear someone else articulate something that I am going through or that I relate to.
     
  3. Moonflower

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    Welcome. Your concerns are shared by many of us who are coming out late as well. But at 33, rest assured that you're not late at all. There are many people on here who are older than you, some by a little, some by a lot. I can relate to a LOT of the things you wrote about, some of which I've been thinking about as well. I've decided that the 90's was a really, really weird time for those of us who were growing up LGBT for detailed reasons that I can't being to completely explain right now, but I'll write about that one sooner or later. Suffice it to say it that it makes absolutely crystal clear, perfect sense to me how you could have supported gay rights but could not support them for yourself.
    You said that you don't feel like a woman who's over 30 and is just now beginning to think about maybe being honest with herself sounds very promising, as a friend or a girlfriend. Well, look at it this way. I think a very large number of people go through life without ever examining themselves truthfully. I'm fond of quotes and found a good one the other day. "The greatest challenge in life is finding out who you are. The second greatest challenge is being happy with what you find." I would not be opposed to being with someone who is on a journey of really understanding herself, and I know there are others who would not be opposed to that as well. Of course, you're going to find women who are nasty about it...but there are all kinds of people out there.
    And wow....the flu is going around this early? Good grief. I saw a sign for flu shots at the drug store two or three weeks ago and scoffed at it, thinking it was too early to get a flu shot. I might be changing my mind.
     
  4. Lindsey23

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    I can relate to so much of what you've said but this in particular stood out to me. I've felt this way for so many years but only recently realized why I've felt so awkward. My relationships with women have suffered as well. It's such a bummer because relationships with other women are so important. I've always formed friendships with guys more easily. I wonder though what it would be like to be in a room full of other lesbian/bisexual women? Would we naturally feel more comfortable?

    ---------- Post added 12th Sep 2015 at 12:24 AM ----------

    I forgot to say welcome to EC! I'm sorry you were sick, I hear the flu shot isn't working well this year so it may be a rough season. Glad you're getting better though. :slight_smile:
     
  5. Antinous

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    Like others have said -- I can really relate to the ideas and feelings you express in your post too. And I'm a guy (same age).

    Being uncertain or suppressed or questioning (whatever you want to call it) regarding your sexuality until your 30s doesn't seem to fit the gay stereotype of 'knowing since I was 12', but as you can see on EC, there are many 'late in life'ers (cringe) who are in precisely that situation.

    I also wonder if people are perceived as less authentic if they have only arrived at their sexual orientation as a full adult. Do others think, "how could s/he not have known about him/herself?", or "If s/he lied about THIS for so long, nobody can trust him/her". When I try to be objective about it, however, I think most people would be happy (or at least sympathetic) for you or me in having dealt with something so understandably difficult. And those fears of suspicion and mistrust probably originate more from an internal discomfort with sexuality rather than a real external threat.

    Anyway, welcome, and you're not alone. I really enjoy reading and thinking about your post, and I hope you post again.
     
  6. TeaTree

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    Hey alittlesun (like your user name :slight_smile:), welcome to EC (*hug*)

    Like the other posters said, I can totally relate as well to what you were describing, what you are going through. You are definitely not alone with this, though, and I know this too well, sometimes it feels like that.
    I'm so happy that I found EC because it helped me a lot. But when I go out in "real life" I wonder where the hell are you people, it's like I'm living in this world where everyone is straight and sure about it and getting married, having children, and so the movie ends.

    Anyway, getting back to the subject, I can totally relate with the weird feeling when around women. I've been in a ltr with my boyfriend for the last eight years (though trying to end it) and during this time I managed to isolate myself from most of the women in my life, my female friends from childhood, etc. I surrounded myself with male friends (mostly my bf-s friends) because it just felt safer, in a way. For a long time I was in such a denial regarding my sexuality that I couldn't even explain to myself the reason why I always felt so uncomfortable around women. I even convinced myself it's because I'm not able to connect with them! But now after I allowed myself to explore my sexuality and get closer to women I realized that this can't be further from the truth! There is a connection I can reach with women and it's so smooth and natural and can reach very deep.

    I'm also concerned about being accepted, either by people around me or by the LGBT community (and I don't know personally anyone LGBT or at least they are not open about it). But I think the most important part is to first accept myself and get comfortable with myself. Others accept the parts of you you accept about yourself.

    About looking at women and feeling like invading some safe non-sexual feminine space. Oh yeah, I felt this since forever. But when I was younger and in denial I've been so ashamed about my same-sex attractions that I labeled them as something wrong with me, something I need to fix or just forget about. When it occured to me several times that I might be gay, I told myself I can't be because look at the only lesbian I knew in high school. Am I like her? No. So I'm not gay...

    So yeah, I've always felt different around my female friends but instead of trying to explore the difference I was trying to fit in and see how can I be more like them.
    I had a close female friend in high school and was so afraid that I'll lose control and going to kiss her that I started looking at her forehead when talking to her, just not to look in her eyes. She of course noticed and was laughing that "my eyes are not there". I wonder if I'll come out to her and others, will they say "I thought so" or will they just be utterly surprised...

    Lately I'm playing the game of looking at women on the street and trying to figure if they are gay or not. It's funny but getting exhausting as well. I think I should meet women who I don't have to guess about, but not sure how :icon_bigg But when I see women who are actually obviously checking me out I shy away..crazy :slight_smile:

    Anyway, we are all in this journey together, and as Moonflower said, a lot of people never get to this point to explore themselves, to get to know the real person who is playing these social roles. So we can definitely be proud of ourselves and of the inner strenght we all have.
     
  7. ebda30

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    All of this.

    Personally, I have noticed I have felt mitch more comfortable and able to be more of myself around lesbian/bi or straight men (as plong as the men are not making passes at me). I have had negative experiences tho, with coming out to straight female friends.

    ---------- Post added 12th Sep 2015 at 07:33 AM ----------

    Should also say welcome!

    This place has far more information support than anywhere else I've seen. This whole process of figuring ones self out seems isn't overwhelming, especially when you've already made a life around the almost exact opposite of what feels right, in a way. Soooo much confusion and questions. I wish you well and hope that this process becomes freeing for you as you discover your true self :slight_smile:
     
    #7 ebda30, Sep 12, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2015
  8. rachael1954

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    I'm gonna quote you too, my faves:

    I am SO GLAD I joined Empty Closets. It's cathartic to voice my own concerns/rages/rants and get a perspective on my thoughts. But even more so, even more important perhaps, is seeing that I'm not alone in these thoughts. Now I need to vent/rant a little for my own benefit.

    You articulated so much in your post that I never had articulated to myself. But now I'm SEEING myself for the first time. I didn't feel comfortable around most straight women because:

    1. their vacant, empty conversations that overlap and go nowhere that they genuinely seem excited about and I could never fake properly
    2. their pretty faces and bodies that I would try not to leer at

    And growing up and through college 95% of women I came in contact with were in that category and I simply avoided them. I made only 1 girl friendship in college, and she was smart and intelligent, but society would say she's unattractive. But I felt safe around her because I didn't want to touch her or go to bed with her.

    Now living in NYC there are potential women to date everywhere I look and I just thought I felt this draw to live in NY because I like gay people and that's where they are. I always loved places where the gay community lives, and was so happy visiting them with my husband. I have been in denial for so long it's really scary.

    I feel like if i tell people I'm gay they will just nod and say "that makes a lot of sense, actually."

    Back to your quote - the thing about being a jerk really resonates with me because I tried to have relationships with guys and I just tortured them and myself until I dumped them. I think I fell in love with one guy but he had a fiancee so I was either torturing myself or attracted by his emotional unavailability.

    I don't really regret anything in my life before this, but now that I know I'm gay or bi or whatever I am gonna have regrets, and gonna go through pain, there's no way around it. One path seems selfish and hurtful, the other path seems like I'm only breathing 40% of the time (I forget who said that but it stuck with me).

    I used to judge people who got divorced and say they failed at life and how could they do that... but now I understand. I sympathize with everyone in their life, because my feelings and emotions are completely out of my control. I can CHOOSE to remain in the status quo, but it's very hard knowing there's a whole other life out there for me. But I don't want to leave my marriage because I'm bored or having a midlife crisis. And I can't trust my feelings.

    Going slow and continuing to read EC forums is the best path for me at the moment. Is ripping off the band-aid better? Maybe, but I have to do things the hard way. But either way is hard.

    I can't believe you're new to EC! :slight_smile: You seem so self-aware, light years ahead in your journey than I was/am. I'm very happy to have read your post. Thanks for sharing it.
     
  9. earnestendeavor

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    (your words) "but it sometimes feels as if my attraction toward women alienates me from female society, because, at least it seems to me, a certain amount of female society is based around bonding over being away from a sexualized space,"

    I love how you explained this!!!! Even "loopy" and sick, you articulated SO much better than I ever could have. *mind blown*

    This should go in a book.

    Your words are very understandable. I have actually shied away from being around women because of this very reason. The guilt !!! The Fear!!! We all need friends, but friends ARE a non-sexualized safe space. You just said it SO well.

    Keep us updated. ebda30 said it beautifully " I wish you well and hope that this process becomes freeing for you as you discover your true self".

    Good luck, and keep smiling!
     
  10. Beebop

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    Thank you alittlesun and welcome to EC. This entire thread has truly resonated with me and I just wanted to post my own reflections on what has been said by both you and Rachael1954.

    I didn't start to develop crushes (smushes?) until I was in college. I noticed the guys had to be extremely good looking (i.e. pretty boys) and often rather muscular. The thing that always baffled me was that I had no sexual desires towards them. Hanging out and taking them in visually was all I was interested in doing. It baffled me and I know it baffled and frustrated them. I never really dated because I knew that most men would have no interest in a woman who didn't want to sleep with them. I figured I'd spend most of my life single and would die alone.

    I didn't have to deal with this until fairly recently, and most of my sexual and romantic attraction is geared towards women. But it started when I developed my trigger crush and was very overwhelming. I thought I was losing it.

    At first, I was disinterested in hanging around girls/women as I simply didn't understand them. When I was in college, I remember feeling attracted to some women, but not understanding the true nature of that attraction. I mean, I was straight right :dry:, so why did I feel that way towards some of them.

    1. This is still an issue for me.
    2. This didn't become an issue until I began to question my sexuality. I can't even lie --it's a pretty big issue now. God help me.

    I've always been 'masculine of center'. I spent a lot of time having to explain to people I was straight starting in my early 20's. I've been slowly telling friends that I'm not straight. The women aren't surprised but the guys seem dumbfounded. Even when I meet new people, women ask me if I'm gay/queer within the first 5 minutes of the conversation. The men seem to be completely blind to what these women see. Recently, one guy asked me if I was single. I answered in the affirmative and then immediately started to talk about LGBTQ issues and going to gay clubs. Ten minutes later he was still re-verifying that I was single.

    Scary isn't it? But it really beats living in the fog that was our life before.
     
    #10 Beebop, Sep 12, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 12, 2015
  11. ebda30

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    Two of you said, that conversations with women were mostly disinteresting (paraphrasing).

    I've also felt that way, too much, as I have done so much as to ask stupid questions I already know the answer.to in order to get them excited to talk, I guess? Probably not accurate description but the conversations are SO dull, small.talk, I guess? Is this something common?

    ---------- Post added 12th Sep 2015 at 07:28 PM ----------

    Tigre- I am so terified of what kind if pain may come. The confusion, questioning, moments of clarity only to give way to more questions and confusion.
     
  12. Beebop

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    It is very common and certainly not limited to women. The differences that I've noticed are that men seem to engage in introductory banter that they think may lead to a conversation that you'd be interested in continuing (not that they succeed) and women talk about subjects that interest them.

    Don't focus on the fear. Focus on being happy.
     
  13. ebda30

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    Its hard to do that when i've been trying so hard to be happy as long as I could remember. Im not even sure wha happy is, with a husband and 4 young kids, destroying them from this is far more concerning than my trying to figure out what happy is.
     
  14. alittlesun

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    Sorry it's taken me so long to reply to my own thread! It's really good to know that I'm not the only one who feels like this. It's funny that, even now, this is something that you can feel so alone and confused when going through. I just look back at all the years when I wish I had admitted it, even to myself, and been open to experiences, and it feels so overwhelming. Thank you all for reading this and taking the time to share your feelings and thoughts. It's so kind and generous, and I think it does help all of us, even if only a little bit, to have these discussions. I know I feel so relieved. No matter how hard the rest is, or slowly I go, it's been good to make the first steps. I want to write more, I really do, but that flu hung in for longer than I thought and I'm only now feeling better. Which, of course, means that I'm playing catch up for the next couple of days!
     
  15. CapColors

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    OP: Your story is interesting and moving. Welcome!

    rachael, I have to push back a bit about the part about straight women being vacuous, though. VACUOUS straight women are vacuous. The rest of them are perfectly capable of normal conversation. Some of my best friends are straight women. :grin:
     
    #15 CapColors, Sep 14, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  16. 8787

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    Welcome and please keep posting. As it was said before, you perfectly described the feelings many of us share! I could expecially relate as well to the akwardness when it comes to the relationship with straight women.. I always felt an unease before realizing that I was gay, but since I accepted that part of myself it got worse. I have to force myself not to look (it's an overly sexualized world for me at the moment! :wink:), feel guilty and always think that people notice.. I hope it's just a phase after this new realization and coming-out some weeks ago! :slight_smile:
     
  17. SnowshoeGeek

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    My goodness, thank you SO much to the OP! In favor of gay rights for everyone but myself - what an excellent synopsis!!! I still feel that way and even more so since the Supreme Court decision.

    Thanks also to everyone else who has posted. I'm just eating it up!