To be honest I'm posting to avoid going dark and sweeping this part of my life back under the rug. Again. I'm sure to ramble. Also might be TMI. If so, sorry. Been doing some timid online dating. More the hookup side, but it is what it is. Pros: Had a decent chat that almost went forward. Fact I enjoyed it said a bit about me as well. Cons: I have no game. I am a full on anti-player. Sigh. And if I didn't have body issues before -- I do now. Dear god. Not sure what I expected. But it is what it is. Hangups: Why the hell didn't I sort this out at 21 or 18 or 14? I had chances. More than one. And I was young, the time to do these things. But it is what it is. Also -- I'm a pushover. I mean, the person who cares least, wins, right? I know I've got hangups but this feels less like testing the waters and more like throwing myself to the wolves. I just feel a real disconnect between what I want/need out of male intimacy and what's on the menu. But I'm sure much of that is just the nature of things. I just feel like I can't do this and be the assertive type of guy that plays out in my head. I know what I think I want but the type of person I project is really at odds with the guy I am, need or want to be. It's not a matter of ,um, position (I'm not really game to go all out with a random person with something like that) but more of assertiveness. Some of this is no doubt homophobia on my part but I can't deny that putting the moves (as it were) on a guy occupies my thoughts far more than being pursued/desired. I think it might one of the things keeping me from throwing in the "I'm Bi, great, now shut up and find a girlfriend" towel and getting on with life. I think the reality is I want to date or at least have those moments (21/18/14) back and that's not what's there. I can't honestly date an "out" guy without being out or willing to be. Plus, I'm a mess who needs to get his act together if he expects anyone worthwhile in his life. Of course asking myself, "dude, would date me, I'm a mess" has to count as progress. Maybe. My plan is to keep at it and see how things go. Ugh. I'm a grown man, damn it. Nothing in life should be easier at 16 than at 39. Other than maybe jumping jacks. LoL. I've read The velvet rage three times now. Found a dust jacket at more or less fits so I can keep it with me at work during slow times. That cover is not closet-friendly. At all. But I think that was the author's point. But I've been reading and I can't help but notice how different my life is/was from the "typical" the book presents. I can't help but wonder if I'm dealing with another set of life issues on top of being gay/bi. I think being locked in as the "golden child" of the family more or less made being anything other than "right" a no-go. Weird thing is the only thing that kept me from taking chances before was ego. Not gays are bad, or my parents would freak, but that I wouldn't be living the perfect life I needed to live to be the "good son." Then there's my hangup with older guys. Which is unhelpful, really, given that hookups seem to be either "young" or "not." I thought about contacting a guy I knew years ago (20 years older than me) and the idea basically squicked me out when it came time to do it. Not sure where it's coming from but it doesn't really matter, I guess. I think some of it is religious programming aka all old gay men=predators. The entire chapter about dating your father left me sort of cold as well. I mean, I know him far better than my mom. But I guess it is what it is. The book talks about authentic living, finding joy and contentment based on living in step with your person/values. And I don't have a clue who I am. At all. Not sure if there's any real questions here, but thanks again. Not sure where I would be without this place. PC
I can relate to your 'golden child' hangup. I'm the first born, straight-As, going places kinda guy and that's what held me back from coming out all those years ago, even when I knew deep down I was gay. I didn't know I could have a 'perfect life' without a wife and kids. All I could see when considering coming out, were all the things I would sacrifice. The world has changed a lot since the 80s and now, I CAN have a husband and kids and a white picket fence - at least in most urban areas. I just wish I'd seen examples of happy gay men 26 years ago.
I'm glad that you are posting, rather than going dark. Online dating Don't expect immediate success with online dating. It can definitely take some time to find the right guy, especially if you are looking for something more meaningful than a hookup. If you like the chase (sounds like you do), then you'll have to learn the ropes and maybe you'll even take pleasure in mastering the game down the road. Don't confuse mastering the game with pretending to be someone who you are not. The secret is to market yourself in ways that attract the guy that you want and if necessary adjust your marketing based upon the results you get. As for body type, guys who are looking for a specific body type often tend to be superficial and don't sound like what you are looking for. Once you find the right guy who cares more about you as a person (rather than being a "fit" top or bottom), body type will be less of an issue. It sounds like you had a good chat with one guy. What stopped it from going forward? You're 39 and not getting any younger. Keep at it or you'll be thinking back about why you didn't sort this out at 39. Pink Velvet Many of us here feel like you do in that we were the "golden child" of the family, which made anything other than "right" a no-go. You kind of contracted yourself in your analysis. You are saying that you did not act on your gay impulses earlier because that would preclude you from living the perfect life and hence being the "good son". Yet buried in that assessment is a message that gays are bad? Why can't gays live the perfect life and be the good son? I hate to break the news to you, but you are an older bisexual guy yes? If you have a hangup with older guys, perhaps you have an issue with yourself? I think it would be good to understand why you failed to connect the guy from your past. It actually seemed like a good thing based on what you wrote. Or perhaps that's why you didn't follow through. I'm all about baby steps, and I would agree that you need to go further down the path before the chapter on authentic living makes total sense to you. As an underview I will reiterate that you are making forward progress in that you are taking action towards finding a male companion. Don't beat yourself up because success is not instantaneous in the online dating world. HTH
Going dark won't bring you happiness or fulfillment. If you deserve both, keep posting. Someone might correct me on this, but I believe the consensus is that dating is very challenging --- at least until you meet someone awesome who thinks you're awesome too. The exception might be guys who are looking for no deeper connection than a hook-up. Unless that's you, your concerns are completely normal. The good news is that the dating game is pretty simple. If you proactively seek out new experiences, you will quickly learn the essentials. New experiences will also show you that you can have a very fun and fulfilling life, even if you didn't come out at an earlier age. Endless sex is available to almost anyone, and, finding a relationship is possible at any age. You just need to constantly meet new people and stay positive. Speaking of which, my view is that your self-image may be your most immediate challenge. What does the moniker "Pathetic Coward" say about you? Is that the same attitude that made you a Golden Child? Unlikely. You found success in the past and in other parts of your life by applying certain techniques and principles. Do the same here and you will also find success. I have found determination and resilience to be especially important. After several years of floundering, I stumbled onto a concept that made all the difference for me. SiennaFire's quotation of Joseph Campbell captures the essence of it, "The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek." I have learned to see fear as a taunt, not a threat. By repeating the exercise until I mastered it, I now confront fear head-on, as soon as I experience it. I can't describe how empowering it has been to repeatedly smash through fears and laugh afterward. Seen in that light, the name "Pathetic Coward" becomes gold. What was once cowardice can now fuel your success.
That's something I'm still getting over. I remember my parents changing the channel when the "gay" All in the Family episode played. Because normal dudes who are gay are the worst, right? If they don't lisp or do meth how can we tell them apart, right? PC
Forgot to close the deal, as it were. To be honest the last time I dated was pre-internet and straight. Then we sort of crossed channels (it looked like he went off line which I took to mean he was done then messaged me back asking where I went). I'm waiting for a reply back. But I've got this nice tidy perfect excuse going, right? Why mess with that? I don't know why I'm laughing at myself right now but it seems to fit. Because people would gossip and my family -- namely my dad -- deserved better. But it is a contradiction. I'm sure there's more to it than "family didn't allow it" and this is just another excuse to avoid admitting that I didn't see gay love as real. I probably have some daddy issues there, in general. A confidence thing, also. By older I think I mean (but can't be sure) guys on the edge of reasonable which is mid fifties or so. I think the big issue is the constant reminder I've missed out. As for the gent I mentioned it really stirred up some negative emotions. First the fact I'm not that kid anymore (when I last really knew the guy) and you can't go back in life. Second is he's part of the reason I buried all this. He was (at the time) a walking reason not to be "one of those." To be gay was to be alone with no real ambition. A gay life was a wasted life. Then I look at where I am now with my imploded career, lack of ambition and far too close to the dreaded 4-0. Ack. More than I can handle. Because then I'm looking back at where I let life go wrong and comparing perfect fiction with imperfect reality. That's disabling, at least for me. Looking at what I need, really, isn't this guy. I should find some out, proud and SANE people to hang out with. Ideally old enough to not be kids but not so old I feel like "fresh meat." I can see that but it feels like a total paradox. Part of me wonders if I would just be trading one mask/ fake self for another. I'm probably over thinking it. But until I can plan the work, how can I work the plan? I've thought about applying for a job I would've never considered, before. Then I stop and wonder if it is what I want to do. I look back and see how many times I rejected something to avoid "looking gay" and wonder if now I'm doing the opposite, rather than being me (whoever I am). That and I know having my "stuff together" would give me more confidence in the rest of my life (aka winners keep winning). I'm probably expecting too much from reality/myself but I don't want to wake up at 50 knowing I missed, again. PC ---------- Post added 18th Feb 2016 at 09:19 PM ---------- Looking at it now my screen name is just part of a flawed success mindset, that excessive self criticism and loathing is productive in driving a person forward. Problem is finding proper motivation after I fire the slave driver in my head (he sneaks back in sometimes, but at least I know what to look for). I've got to shake the false duality of either I'm a rage driven A-type winner or a checked out loser. I'm sure it is a great feeling. I'm still working on that. I think the real problem I have is target recognition, for lack of a better phrase. It has been too easy in life to level the guns at anything that scares me rather than taking the time to consider why I feel the way I do. My skill set is somewhat lacking in that regard. Either I run away or charge blindly at something. But ya. That has to be a great feeling. PC
One big lesson I'm learning as part of the self-acceptance process is, friends first, lovers later. Find some gay guys to hang out with. Go to a support group or some LGBT events. Maybe you'll relax a little and meet someone you like more naturally. You're not going to go from confused closet case to gay pimp daddy overnight. Even the biggest Type A's don't expect instant results. They make a plan and go step by step. Aggressively, of course.
Since you didn’t comment on this, I’m going to repeat it You are making significant forward progress by taking action towards finding a male companion via online dating. As Cameron points out, you are confronting your fear by exploring this cave. Even though progress may seem slow, keep in mind that it takes time to ramp up on the online dating scene. In fact you may even need to change your user name to Courageous Coward. Bravo (!!) I’d ping him again if you don’t hear back. Here’s a thought on what to say: Hey. I’m sorry that our messages crossed. I’m new to online dating, and I’m still learning the ropes. You seem like a great guy, and I’d still like to get together for coffee (or whatever). Caveat: I'm assuming he's a decent guy who is more than a hookup player. You’re laughing at yourself because you recognize this as a tidy perfect excuse. If you keep moving ahead with online dating, you also see that your need for the excuse will disappear. It sounds like he stirs up too many negative emotions from the past and you’re better off moving on. Given that you used to work in the construction business, I can see why you are asking for the blueprint before starting to build the house. I think that you may want to think about this differently here though. Trying to create an accurate blueprint for the rest of your life is a significantly harder problem than asking an architect for the blueprint. This approach has the possibility of analysis paralysis. In this case you are better served using a phased, iterative “plan-do-reflect-repeat” model where part of the plan includes activities that generate experiences from which you can learn and grow and then plan the next phase based on what you learned. Having said that, the table on pp. 219-220 is a great summary of skills required for authenticity and could serve as a roadmap for authenticity.
That is good advice. I think my problem is I can't escape black and white thinking when it comes to LGBT anything. Either I'm in or I'm out. I might have to give up on the hookup scene and just be out. I'm no doubt expecting too much from what's out there/ from myself. Or I need to give it more time. I think part of the problem is I've wrested the question into a corner -- aka do a hookup, get it over with -- and if I let off now I'll either freeze up or end up the quiet guy who's "out" but runs scared from anyone/everyone. PC ---------- Post added 19th Feb 2016 at 07:59 AM ---------- Thanks. I guess it's hard for me to count anything that hasn't produced results as "progress" but you're right. And I should've noted it before. Ignoring the positive isn't helpful. The username is a bit whoa is me, isn't it? I'll have to think about a change. But part of me wants to wait until I don't need a negative reminder anymore. I'm sure I'll hold on to it far longer than I need to. I hit him up for coffee after I posted here. Message is listed as unopened. Time will tell. Trying not to get my hopes up without being pessimistic. Not an easy trick for me. I hope so. I mean it's either get on with it or give up. And if I could give up I wouldn't be here working on it. I think that's most of it. I had hoped otherwise but some things just aren't worth it. No doubt. To be honest I've wondered how much of my life I've wasted on that already. But worrying about won't change anything. I know I should embrace uncertainty more aka take one day at a time but it's hard to trust myself when I've wasted so much time already. Thanks again, Sienna Fire, everyone. Not sure what I would do without this place and you all. PC
You don't have to view this as either/or. You can certainly continue to pursue the hookup scene and attend LGBT events or maybe grab a beer at the gay bar tonight. The more avenues you pursue the greater the chance of success.
I think the best way I've found to describe feelings like this is to say that I feel disoriented. And, yes, at times, I get very angry that I have to be disoriented. To me, at the age of 14, it's okay to be disoriented about sex and relationships because you're disoriented about, well, everything else, too, so what's one more thing? Plus, everyone else is disoriented at the same time, so you don't feel quite so alone. After puberty, I think we all expect that feeling to be over. But maybe it really isn't ever over for anyone. In other words, you're very likely not alone in this.
If I was willing to to be seen as out or the like then you're exactly right. Some of this is a chicken and egg problem on my part. Easier to find something real when you're out but I refuse to be there until I'm more certain of myself but here I am complaining about my lack of dating success. I should just trust myself to know who I am regarding this but given I was wrong for years that's just not something I can do. ---------- Post added 19th Feb 2016 at 08:58 PM ---------- You're right but it doesn't make this any less awkward. Thanks again, everyone PC
