Suddenly angry about heteronormativity - anyone relate?

Yes.

Maybe not angry. Yet. But certainly, disappointed with the lack of education, representation and the ever present overall assumption. It certainly would have been easier if LGBT opportunities existed right from the start.

For example, when I graduated from high school, for grad night, everybody's name went into a pot and "dates" were drawn so nobody was left out. All good, I guess. But there was no choice for boys preferring to go with boys nor girls preferring to go with girls. Of course, you'd have had to have been out or better still, if it was equally assumed that there would be non-straight members of the student body.

I'm also having a hard time enjoying the same tv shows I did before. They're all starting to seem ridiculous, bordering on the idiotic. And even shows with some LGBT characters in them, the storylines are so subtle in some cases you don't even know that they are LGBT for quite some time. (Well, I don't. Maybe I'm just dense. )

But I definitely get what you're saying, it certainly would have been nice to have had the same LGBT-ness as a given from a much younger age.

 

It angers me, too.

The only thing that angers me more is when people get pissed off when you're not being heteronormative. For example, yesterday in English I was raving about Carol. I was going through a happy mood swing, a welcome occurrence in the void that is my emotions, and I literally just wanted to tell everyone about it. And, heck, I can't remember seeing a lesbian couple in any mainstream movie? At all? In my life? So I was kinda happy. And someone asks me what's it about, and I gave a brief explanation of it being set in 1950s New York, blah blah, and then went 'AND IT'S GOT LESBIANS'.

And then this girl replies 'no offence, but why does it have to be Gay? Why does that matter? Why are you rubbing your sexuality in our faces, do you just need everyone to know that you're gay?'. My girlfriend was literally sat right next to me. I wanted to scream at this girl because they will NEVER understand having maybe 5 movies/tv programmes that feature people like you. And most of those are heavily stereotyped, or the gay characters are put in there so they can be the brunt of jokes. Good luck trying to find any kind of movie that isn't over-sexualised or doesn't end in suicide. Straight people want a romance film? No problem. Queer people want a romance film? Good fuckin luck finding all two of them.

So, the reason that Carol matters to me, and any LGBTQIA+ media matters to me, is because they're so scarce. And people only notice the difference between me talking about a straight couple and me talking about a gay couple because everything is so heteronormative. If I'd been gushing about... I don't know, how beautiful Edward and Bella are as a couple and was screaming about how he kissed her, no bitch would go 'OMG WHY ARE YOU SO STRAIGHT ALL YOU EVER TALK ABOUT IS STRAIGHT PEOPLE JESUS ARE YOU LIKE PROUD TO BE STRAIGHT OR SOMETHING?' Because that's normal. It angers me a lot. And just for the record, I detest twilight, they were just the first shitty straight couple I could think of.

 

I have a little hard time understanding why heteronormativity is a problem. The fact is that more than 90% of the people are straight and all markets cater to the majority. Making assumptions about new people is something everyone does and without it our lives would be very difficult. Being angry about it is not a very good state to be. In the end you hurt yourself.

The situation is a bit similar as if a Lithuanian living in the States complained about the americanormativity in the US. How he is annoyed that there are no Lithuanians in the movies or TV series although there are Lithuanians living in the US. And when there is one, he is stereotypical Eastern European with Russian accent. And that when he meets new people everyone automatically assumes he is American.

Now don't get me wrong. There are straight people who will see any sign or implication that you are gay as "rubbing in it in their face" and that is unreasonable. Also, sex education should be brought to modern day standards. There is no reason to talk about just straight sex in missionary position as more and more straight people are into other forms of sexual activity than the classical vaginal sex.

However, it is also unfair for gay people to complain about heteronormativity in situations I described in the Lithuanian example. We cannot take into account every single possible minority there is be it sexual or other. There are just too many different groups who could justifiably demand more public attention.

Also, most straight people do not consider their straightness as integral part of their personality or at least they don't define themselves through it. This does not seem to be the case for many gays who seem to build great part of their personality around their gayness. I don't know if this is the case with you but if it is perhaps if didn't put so much emphasis on your sexual orientation in defining yourself heteronormativity wouldn't bother you so much. I got food allergies which are rather rare and in most cases they go uncatered because they are so rare. Sure it's annoying at times when I can't eat when others can but I'm not angry about the non-allergynormativity. I don't think or feel that the shops or restaurants should cater my special needs. And I don't get annoyed when people ask if my allergy is real or I'm just whoring for attention. If people are not educated about it my allergies sure sound rather implausible.

Technically they are not a straight couple. Considering vampires are dead it is a necrophiliac couple.

 

This argument doesn't compare. Immigrants coming to America fully expect to be "different" but they make their way by forming communities which are for the most part completely accepted and welcomed. They open community centres, shops and restaurants which the non-Lithuanian population patronizes in the normal course of experiencing other cultures in their cities. And besides the racists, nobody bats and eye.

Who besides "allies" takes part in LGBT communities? Why do we even have to say "allies"? Because the general population can't compute what being LGBT means because of, among other things, lack of exposure and education. Heteronormativity also affects them.

Nobody in their right mind would begrudge you your special dietary needs or the Lithuanian's tastes for all things cabbage but it certainly isn't like that for LGBT people.

 

I think it does compare fairly well. It's irrelevant if they expect to be "different" or not. Now there might be difference in acceptance of gay vs. Lithuanian communities but I would say that in most parts of the world LGBT communities are reasonably accepted. The point was about heteronormativity or in other words that the society operates on assumption that most people are straight.

The non-Lithuanian population patronizes the businesses that are operated by Lithuanians but offer generic services. Compare a super market owned by a Lithuanian vs. a super market selling Lithuanian products. I would expect that the most of the customers of the latter place would be mainly Lithuanians where as in the former case I would expect everyone to visit the place. Compare this to a normal bar owned by gay vs. a gay bar. I don't think most people would avoid a bar owned by a gay.

Well, besides the train enthusiasts who takes part in train enthusiast events? It's a bit same thing with this thing. If the event is labeled as LGBT event then only the people who have interest in those issues take part. If it's framed as a street festival a considerably broader audience can be expected.

I have nothing against BDSM people but if there is an event that is labeled as "BDSM" I would probably not attend because I really don't have any interest in BDSM issues. Not that I would feel uncomfortable at attending one but it's just it's really not my cup of tea. I think it's the same thing with straight people too. In my city there are a lot of bars and non-gay clubs and bars whose customers largely are gays. This hasn't driven away the straight customers.

Demanding that people take special interest in your perspective is kind of unfair. I don't think you are particularly interested how Lithuanians in the US experience their lives or what kind of hardships they face because of their culture. Obviously if you want to publicly talk about these issues it's perfectly fine.

Believe it or not but the people who have not heard about my condition don't take it seriously. Not such a big problem in the western world but even in the southern Europe it's tough. And I occasionally hear people complaining how difficult my diet is but I can't take that personally because honestly I think it is a real pain in the ass.

 

Well, I sure didn't mean to sound patronizing. My point is to try to show that behind all this is not some evil force that tries to oppress LGBT people. Being mad about things like this is just bad for your own well being.

I'm a little bit confused how is not the existence of LGBT community not acknowledged? And how is accommodation not special treatment? When someone prepares me a special meal to accommodate my dietary requirements I do consider it special treatment.

I disagree with this notion. Could you perhaps give an example how society functions on the premise that everyone is straight? Society also largely operates on the premise that every adult can read but is this a bad thing? Or that most people are right handed. How large a minority should be to be able claim that the society stopped assuming everyone is of property X?

I agree, this is a legitimate problem as I mentioned before.

I don't really think that sexual orientation should be a defining quality of a role model, however, I do agree that it is important that LGBT community is visible in the media so that young people can see that being LGBT person is acceptable and OK. However, not every single TV show or movies should have a token LGBT person.

Trans people consists of less than 1% of the general population. There are hundreds of minorities which are at least as big as trans. Should we take all of them in consideration when re-engineering everything? If not, why?

Homophobia is not the same thing as heteronormativity.

I think you missed my point. It's not about "acting gay". It's about situations where there is a heteronormative assumption that you don't think that it's something directed against the LGBT groups. If a restaurant fails to make special provisions to me I don't be upset about it and think that I'm being oppressed. Reality is that they can't make provisions for all imaginable food allergies.

Your analysis is probably correct. I was not being judgmental but tried to point out how this kind of thinking can lead to disappointments. People can redefine themselves and change which things they emphasize in themselves. I don't hide my allergy or pass on invitations because of it but I don't think that it's in anyhow an important part of my personality. Point being you can "act as gay" as you want but it does not have to mean that being gay is a big part of your personality.

 

Cakepiecookie, I too am becoming increasingly angry about heteronormativity.

I do believe it contributed to me not recognising my own sexual orientation until I was 39. Also, it makes me feel kind of invisible, and a little unsafe. And I do recognise that heteronormativity is different than homophobia, but it is also true that heteronormativity creates a safe haven for homophobia.

But I want to set the intelectualizing side for a moment to just acknowledge that heteronormativity has been making me angry lately. That is true and real. I don't need to feel bad about it or try to repress it. It just is. It's good information worth exploring and honoring--not to make it go away, but to understand what it has to offer, what it has to tell me.

You know what else makes me angry? Being told I shouldn't be angry. Not cool.

 

From the thread: http://emptyclosets.com/forum/lgbt-later-life/192537-forgiving-others.html , I have cut the following post I had written which I think, at least for me, helped me resolve the struggles I faced dealing with heteronormativity where I finally concluded it was ok to forgive others:

 

An example of heteronormativity from my life. I have been separated from my husband for 15 months. In that time, I have come out to many people as bisexual and I have also started dating a woman. When I have mentioned I am dating, the general response I get is some form of a question about him, whether from a person I had already come out to or a person I had not come out to.

Oddly, only one person asked the question "How did you meet this person?" with no pronoun, and I had never come out to him. That was a gift, because it gave me the chance to discuss without having to either come out or to hide my truth. It gave me space to just be as a person, which is what we all want.

One more interesting heteronormativity example. My immediate family is not heteronormative - my ex is gay, I'm bi, we have a trans/bi kid, and a kid who identifies as asexual. The kid in the middle of those two actually has come out as straight. I also have an older kid from a previous relationship who is probably straight, but because he has never told me he is, I'm not assuming anything. He's currently in a heterosexual relationship.

And as far as heritage and bizarre dietary issues go - I have all of that, too. I'm technically Swedish American and I have medical issues that restrict my food choices. I'm not asking for accommodation or special treatment for any of these things - my bisexuality, my Swedishness, or my food issues, but I would like to be treated with respect in all areas. That's where whatever normativity gets in the way.

 

My bad, I got the impression that you think that way. This may sound like a stupid question but as a person who is not very emotional and rarely gets angry I have difficulty understanding why do you get angry if someone is clueless or ignorant? Are you angry at the person or towards what you direct your anger? I get angry only if someone is purposely and malignantly doing something that causes harm to someone else. Would frustration be a better word to describe your feeling?

People can be mad and angry I'm not saying that. It just sounds like that anger has been for a while a more or less persistent feeling for you and that it has impacted your normal life. If this is the case it's not good state to be in. My comments were given against this background.

I tried to think about the lack of acknowledgement you have mentioned and went back to check. You gave some concrete examples and a couple of pretty vague ones.

Concrete examples:
- your friends not wanting to go with you to LGBT related events and places even though you have gone to straight events and clubs your whole life: If you don't like going to straight events and clubs why do you go there? If you like going there what is the problem? Why do you expect your friends to go places and events they don't want to go?
- sex education was straight only: I agree that this should be corrected but it's more of a policy matter than awareness issue.
- everyone assumes you are straight unless you state otherwise: true but people assume a lot of other things too, like your sex and gender based on your looks, that you are probably interested in or are dating someone and if so they assume the relationship to be monogamous and that you have only one dating partner at a time. People make assumptions all the time about a lot of things. Life would become very difficult if we assumed nothing about the other person. I'm not bothered by these assumptions but that is just me.
- sometimes people refuse to believe you are gay because you don't look gay: this sounds like plain ignorance and stupidity from their part
- no role models for 10% of the people: I guess that really depends on what qualifies as role model. There are a lot of LGBT celebrities but I'm not sure are they good role models.

vague examples:
- people talking about things in straight only terms: I don't really know what you mean by this. Gendered pronouns? Boy friend vs partner?
- everything designed for cis people: I assume this refers to toilets. Personally I don't mind unisex toilets but a lot of people are not comfortable if someone from the opposite sex shares the same toilet.

It is special treatment if things are done differently for you that deviates from the normal procedure. For me equality means that everyone has the same rules and everyone gets the same treatment. We may question is a particular rule sensible in the first place but giving a free pass for someone is special treatment even if the rule or procedure is stupid.

This is my point. What is "within reason"? Because I think that the concept of reason varies from person to person. I don't think it is reasonable to make people constantly be on their toes in normal conversation because they might accidentally offend a member of an invisible minority. If someone asks me if I have a girl friend it doesn't offend me. I'm not offended if someone asks if I have a boy friend either but I would be rather curious why would they make an assumption against the odds.

Could you perhaps tell me why food allergy analogy is not good?

I don't think most LGBT people want any special accommodation actually. All the gays I know are pretty happy with the society as it is (bear in mind I don't live in the US) and don't identify with most of the problems you described. I might be gay too and I have no complaints about heteronormativity other than that I indicated above, sex ed and so on. You on the other hand feel that people should stop using words that carry implications about significant other's sex for example. Or that straight people should attend LGBT events.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I never said you shouldn't feel what you feel or that it's anyhow wrong or that you should change anything. I just tried to give you a different perspective to look at the issue because you seemed rather unhappy.

 

I've found myself becoming angry about this too, partly because I feel like I had very few people I could look to as someone I could relate to. But now, this really bothers me in terms of how it impacts my daughter. I don't ever want her to believe there's a particular orientation that she's supposed to be. I want her to know she is who she is and that it's normal.
I don't like for example that when she plays with a boy at nursery (she's 3), people "sweetly" say 'oh they're like a couple' (of course no one says this when she talks/plays in a similar way with a girl. It sounds sensitive, but that's a box that she doesn't need to be put into yet. She gets to choose her box. I don't like the way everything is so gendered either. She loves her trucks, her robots, she likes to play pirate and trains, lego, star wars, but she also loves princess costumes, Elsa and Peppa Pig. She likes to put bows in her hair. I don't like the attention she gets for the girl stuff but the lack of attention for the boys' stuff. I love when she makes up a cool story about BB8 and Rey as much as I love the way she's learned every word to Let it Go. I want her to feel that she's receiving praise for everything that's uniquely her. And it drives me mad that people don't treat all of her interests equally.
I didn't mean to get into a rant, but this is all to say, that yes, my feelings growing up and the things I see with the world and my daughter's place in it, I don't like the heteronormativity. It very much angers me. So I get you and I totally agree.

 

I've found myself becoming angry about this too, partly because I feel like I had very few people I could look to as someone I could relate to. But now, this really bothers me in terms of how it impacts my daughter. I don't ever want her to believe there's a particular orientation that she's supposed to be. I want her to know she is who she is and that it's normal.
I don't like for example that when she plays with a boy at nursery (she's 3), people "sweetly" say 'oh they're like a couple' (of course no one says this when she talks/plays in a similar way with a girl. It sounds sensitive, but that's a box that she doesn't need to be put into yet. She gets to choose her box. I don't like the way everything is so gendered either. She loves her trucks, her robots, she likes to play pirate and trains, lego, star wars, but she also loves princess costumes, Elsa and Peppa Pig. She likes to put bows in her hair. I don't like the attention she gets for the girl stuff but the lack of attention for the boys' stuff. I love when she makes up a cool story about BB8 and Rey as much as I love the way she's learned every word to Let it Go. I want her to feel that she's receiving praise for everything that's uniquely her. And it drives me mad that people don't treat all of her interests equally.
I didn't mean to get into a rant, but this is all to say, that yes, my feelings growing up and the things I see with the world and my daughter's place in it, I don't like the heteronormativity. It very much angers me. So I get what you are saying and I totally agree.

 

I am a minority in both my race and sexual orientation. Growing up in a Native American community I felt supported and somewhat represented on television, at least when Natives weren't stereotyped and made jokes of. I accepted that there wouldn't be very many movies and shows with Native Americans. However, the LGBT community received very little representation, so much so that I hadn't even considered that I might grow up to be gay, and so I went into puberty fully expecting to come out the other side a NORMAL heterosexual. Times have changed and yet sometimes I feel more represented as a Native American then a person belonging to the LGBT community, and Native Americans only make up 2 percent of the population, which makes it more of a minority. I too get frustrated with how heteronormative the world is, and especially when I find it hard to relate to characters on TV. I also never had to fight to be understood that I am a racial minority because it is understood that there are minorities and thus it is a norm. No one thought that I was going to grow up another race just because they are the majority. Native Americans haven't always been accurately portrayed on the big screen either, often shown as caricatures and stereotypes. Yet I have a much easier time finding them in movies that are actually good. As long as I avoid the old westerns I have less trash to sift through in order to find a gem. Also this reminds me of how the the Black Lives Matter movement has spilled over onto the silver screen, especially at the Oscars. Should they not rage against the norm? Without anger (which is more of a driving force than frustration as one can live with an annoyance) no one would challenge what is considered normal or acceptable. And if we're lucky enough to have some of our voices be heard, we can get that much closer to equality. Otherwise the LGBT community will remain in the background, and there might be more young children who might never consider the possibility that they won't fit in the heteronormative world.

 

I've been annoyed at this too... Ever since I've been out to myself I've wanted to see more strong LGBT roll models. The L-Word and the Color Orange were ground breakers but it's going to be a while before we start seeing it more mainstream. Lost Girl was one of the first shows I've seen with it being an integral part of the story line. They've been fed the Disney version of life and it's going to take US to make the changes but in a positive non confrontational way... Maybe it's the Aquarian in me but I think it'll come in time, albeit not quick enough for most of it but it'll come.