Basic skill not learned when young - maybe.

Ehhh, define "reflect." I say that because I don't recall many straights growing up who thought about their sexuality too deeply. Except for those who were taught that any sex is wrong; they did a bit of soul-searching at times.

 

+1

I don't understand what this means either, so it would be helpful to clarify.

Shame, being in the closet or in denial certainly does have implications. I've posted the following thoughts in various forms previously. Is this what you are getting at?

 

I *think* I get it? What the OP reminded me of, something I question often, is how when I was a teenager I would very much fantasize about sex with men and always think about guys, and almost only guys, sexually. Yet I never made that connection to think that it meant I was gay and should date men. I was 20 before I started to connect those dots, and I went back on it pretty quickly.

 

SF's response was one of the most enlightening posts I have read here.

I have always wondered about my ability to mask my emotions when needed. And, frankly, lie convincingly when needed. I think I learned very early on to keep emotions I did not want displayed buried deep as a result of my early recognition of my sexuality and my fear that others would learn of them. I have used this in my work often. I have also been able to mask my emotions in emergency situations. People are consistently amazed how little emotion I show..while I am completely wound up inside.

So, maybe this is not a lack of skills? Can being in the closet provide other skill sets?

Where I differ, personally, is in the arena of self reflection. I would disagree with the premise that being gay, or bi, would make one less able to exercise self reflection. I suppose a well developed sense of denial could be indicative of that. But, I would have to say that for me, and others, this questioning of something so fundamental as sexual attraction would nurture self reflection in all aspects of one's life. It certainly did for me.

I wonder if it is more a function of one's basic personality than sexual orientation? Referring to one's ability to "self reflect"?

 

This is so much my story, down to the age of connecting the dots and everything, only replace "men" with "women". It's really interesting how denial works.

 

I look back and wonder how much different things would've been if I could've accepted things about my sexuality at a younger age. I feel sometimes emotionally stunted, and just this feeling like I *know* what I should feel, but I just don't.
Depersonalization has been a constant in my life and I feel like shutting myself down to just about everything became a tool necessesary for survival growing up.
Self reflection actually doesn't seem to be much of a problem at this point, but it sure as hell was for a long time. I guess one of those "can't see the forest for the trees" kind of things.

 

I was the opposite. I did not know I was different (and maybe I am not so much if you believe the new stats on bisexuality). I was very stunted in my knowledge of sex growing up as a VERY catholic kid. Sexual fantasy did not exist because I was taught not to have "evil thoughts". I had strong attractions to both males and females but did not understand it as sexual desires and I did not understand that not everyone felt this way, or how I should feel, until I was older. I did not have a single friend until I was in puberty. My first friend, ever, was gay (it turns out). Neither one of us understood we were different. We "broke up" over a girl I fell for...still didn't get it!

By the time I figured it out there was nothing to question...the ship had sort of sailed. My issue was how to live as a "pervert" not that I denied being one. So, I can hide it...well.

But, I don't feel emotionally stunted at all. I just know how to keep it inside when I feel like it.

This is so fascinating to learn how others grew, and grow, sexually.

 

I'm finally at a point where I'm starting to think my understanding of my sexuality is happening exactly the way it's supposed to. Like this *is* the right time for me to embrace being queer. That is s sharp difference from my feelings not that long ago; I felt that I had wasted so much of my life. But now I don't think that's true.

An analogy- I was always a misfit, rarely had friends; I started making real friendships finally around 16, and you know what, that's the way my life was supposed to go, I am shaped by that experience of being friendless much of my childhood.

Another analogy- I went back to school late, and as a result the experience of education was extremely rewarding.

So can this be. Who cares anymore whether I never slept with s woman, had a romantic or intimate or meaningful relationship with a woman. I still have time to sleep with or build a relationship with whomever I want.

 

It's weird because I feel like in ways I couldn't have been more open as a teenager even if I had realized that I should be. Nobody was openly gay at my high school. Nobody. And my father, who regularly verbally abused me saying that I better not be gay, would have very possibly been much worse towards me. I grew up with plenty of gay role models in a way, since my aunts (a lesbian couple) raised me in many ways, and allot their friends are gay. But it was also sort of unspoken that they were gay. Like, you knew it logically, but not specifically. I've still only seen my aunts hold hands maybe once, and never kiss. I wouldn't go as far as to call that a form of learned homophobia, but it was definitely something that sort of suggested what they were doing in private was not okay. If that makes sense. Like it was this secret thing that had to stay secret.

Still, I regret not just being honest. I often think of this one time in high school where we had a substitute teacher and this sat around talking, and the conversation happened to be very much about sex. One girl asked flat out "but why do guys like when girls tell them that they're wet?" In an alternate reality, I answered that by saying "I have no idea, it does nothing for me, but if that guy told me he was hard...gurrrrrrrrl!" But that's not how it went in this reality.

 

I think perhaps I get it.

I knew absolutely no openly gay people growing up, so it was completely foreign to me. Then I joined the military, where being gay was a prosecutable offense. I always did what I was supposed to do and didn't give it a second thought. Over the past year, I've reflected on a lot of things, such as why my relationships didn't work out? Why would I be in a relationship and all of a sudden all feelings were gone and being intimate felt like a chore that was to be endured? Why did I always feel a lack of closeness to a man? (Sort of like being on stage, when the real me was backstage, in rehersal, or whatever, if that makes any sense). Not being in a committed relationship with anyone for over ten years....yes, I'm sure people wondered about me. There always seemed to be something wrong with the ones wanting a relationship with me, or I would find myself with men who conveniently weren't willing to commit, and that was perfectly fine with me. Checking out women seemed normal because the female body is beautiful...so that didn't make me gay, right? And probably, finally, the idea that I talked about it so much, thought about it so much.

I think what it took for me was actually getting to know openly gay women. I know that sounds ridiculous, but it's true. I really don't think I'm defective in any way because of this, but I go back and things make sense now. Even so, it took a long time to figure this out.

 

I'm not relating to the use of reflection, so I made a substitution where reflection is connecting the dots.

In reading this "closed down" behavior seems to be denial, although I'm not sure the value of introducing a new term for denial. Do I think denial prevented me from connecting the dots on other things in my life? Not directly. I would have probably made different life choices had I connected the dots on being gay earlier. For example, I might chosen a career in fashion if I knew I were gay earlier. My thoughts in post #3 are still relevant regarding the indirect effects.

What do you see as the implications of this insight/theory? I think a really powerful way to connect the dots is to go out and be gay.

 

I grew up Catholic in the 60s and 70s. When I finally learned what homosexuality was...it was described to me as a perversion. So, being bi, I considered myself a pervert as a 20 ish guy.

Not, of course, how I view it now. Actually, I did not believe it for very long...couple months really, before I decided to ignore a lot of moral definitions.

 

Yes, this is how I'm supposed to do life. Nice way of putting it. I truly never thought otherwise. Actually resolved that I was not going to find someone. Also, I have felt as thought I was a huge disappointment to my mother over the years. Her idea of success is marrying a man who will take care of you. I have never had that inclination, although I did try marriage to the best of my ability.

I was actually pretty much on a date with my current gf, but didn't realize it, if that makes any sense. I had developed a crush on her, which I figured was some crazy fluke because.....she's a girl. When we were out and she leaned in for a kiss, I remember thinking 'This is really happening!' and knowing I had to go for it.

Things have slowly come into focus for me. My life has gotten very complicated in some ways, and simplified in others. I have a relationship that doesn't feel rehersed, or that I'm playing a part. Things that I previously thought were normal, I now know are not. I don't know where this is going, and there is a lot of growing that I need to do, but for the absolute first time, I feel both comfort and passion, and a sense of 'This is how it's supposed to be!'

Again, if any of that makes any sense.

 

I think what you said makes perfect sense. I know in my relationship with ex, I always kinda felt like playing a part. Writing a card or something for holidays or whatever, I could write the most sentimental things, and tho they sounded great, I don't think I ever truly felt the weight of those words. I just knew it was how I should feel I guess.

 

Do you mean like not being very self aware? Such that you basically can't see the way you're feeling and acting about all of that so a shame response is triggered so that you can just not deal with it? Cause I kinda had that yea. Grew out of it but yea, I don't think that's abnormal at all. But very ok this is what's correct do this don't go with your gut or worry about it or anything... I think so so much of that is perspective and experience to look back on that give us the ability to really feel out our lives vs just walk day to day doing what we feel is required of us. Life is so weird.
I should add when people tell you girls aren't supposed to like girls but every time you see anything anywhere where any two girls are in a relationship it's the best and you just fan girl like a spaz and then you have instant oh I'm not supposed to like this it's bad no one else is acting like they want those characters to kiss... Well I must be messed up and no one explains gay until you're like 14 and even then no one is and anything even remotely is seen in such a negative light... How on earth are we expected to find peace with who we are... These days people are slightly less Freaked by things but anyone remember when everyone stopped watching ellen right when it got good... Yea... It doesn't do anyone any good to be told only what is expected of them such that it's not safe to ask questions and be open and honest about what you think and feel. That causes what you're talking about. It's almost like we are let to an extent to be nieve and it's about relationships on general too like what do we do or say and growing up there's a lot of 'no touching' 'behave' and not a lot of 'talk to each other' 'what do you think' the parent child relationship can be a source of learning how to interact later in life and often parents respond with a let me tell you what to do to suit my needs instead of what will help you in the future... Weird weird stuff