Just a random topic for discussion. As I have observed most of my friends getting married, I've seen a lot of different kind of relationships work. Some couples seem more compatible than others. My perspective might be tainted by my horrible propensity to develop crushes on unavailable straight men. But when I see a relationship in which the guy seems constrained, or in which some of his personality traits aren't getting nurtured, it makes me wonder how much external factors influence selection of a spouse compared to internal factors. I guess it frustrates me to some degree because it seems there is so much pressure in society to settle down in a heterosexual marriage and, to some, it seems like that is the ultimate life goal. And it's something that held me back for so long. I am admittedly preoccupied with 'the spectrum'. But with so much pressure for men and women to be straight, I feel like searching outside the norm is never fostered or necessarily even considered? Selfishly, this frustrates me because it seems to decrease the number of men who are available to me, particularly with respect to the type of guy I seem to prefer. I suppose all marriages are marriages of convenience to some degree. What do others think about this?
In historical terms, marriage was understood as the acquisition of a wife in terms akin to the acquisition of property. Ever wonder why the father traditionally hands off his daughter to the groom? The reason is simple: marriage was traditionally an agreement between the father and the groom, the daughter was generally a passive entity in this arrangement. That the ritual ceremony survives to this day is a testament to the durability of certain ways of seeing marriage, despite all the relatively recent advances in women's rights. Given this traditional understanding of marriage, you can now perhaps also grasp the depth of religious objections to same-sex marriage. It upsets the patriarchal apple-cart rather completely. So what, in the end, IS marriage? It is first and foremost a public declaration, an agreement between two persons that is supported by the state to ensure that two married persons have certain rights and privileges granted to each other. That is it. I personally believe the state should get out of the marriage business altogether, never more so than having gone through a divorce and seen first hand the archaic provisions in family law. I would advocate for the state to get involved only to enforce what is essentially a legally binding contract between two people. Period. If you are hoping to find a guy who is unhappy in his marriage, I would counsel that you forget about it. You cannot ever convince anyone to change his sexual orientation. The number of available men is a problem for gay guys, this is a fact that is beyond your control, you just need to accept that. This is why I am generally for online dating. We are faced not only with finding a suitable mate, but a suitable mate whose sexual orientation is not generally visible. Going online solves the second problem, but not the first. It's a numbers game...If you go online, and there is someone you like, get offline as soon as possible and meet them in a safe, public place...and just repeat until you find that one person with whom you'd like to spend more time with when driving together somewhere (It's a really good test, actually, try it!)
Yes it is just a general comment on my frustrations with the 'norm' and I guess how differently I perceive what the norm is since I have begun this journey. Believe me, I am not looking for a man that is unhappy with his marriage! And some of the best conversations occur on long car trips... even moreso these days that at least one of the parties can't be enveloped in their smartphone
It's good that you appreciate that, and, for the record, the way you wrote about guys in straight marriages suggested that you might be interested, but I get what you are saying. As for the norm, well, we are no longer in "normal" times. Normal times require at least some durability or consistency, but with the internet and smart phones, change has been increasingly accelerated, in both positive and negative directions, so that normal itself has taken on new meanings. By becoming yourself, you have noticed how it differs from what could be called "traditional" norms (of marriage, etc.), but isn't that always how we discover ourselves? By the contrast between what we really are vs. what societal norms dictate we should be? I think we are entering into an age when being oneself will be the only "norm"...and what an interesting place that would be!
It certainly would be an interesting place. That is what I was getting at- to articulate it better, I feel as though same-sex experimenting for men who are simply curious is still taboo or emasculating enough that many men with any inclination that way never explore it. It would be interesting to live in a world in which there was no shame in it, but I think that that is still a long ways off. By the time a man gets married, the decision is made and the relationship is sanctified in whichever context. But I feel like a lot of men, or people, straight or not, do hurry into marriages due to societal pressures. It's just been one of the fun realizations I've made recently.
I completely agree, I was one of those on whom that pressure was applied, but it's not only external, there is that whole "the clock is ticking" pressure as well, which sometimes gets people into marriages that would have been better cancelled.
Interesting thread. Here I am desperately worried about keeping my marriage alive after 30 plus years. Financial independence, no religious reasons, no kids. Nothing except I have a deep respect for the institution and it has, for the most part, brought me tremendous satisfaction. I have less disdain for the institution of marriage than for societal norms on sexuality (obviously). I do see value in committing to a relationship with another person. Building a partnership with common goals, based in love, can provide a host of personal benefits. Relationships take work and dissolving a marriage is a big deal. So, there is motivation to do that work. Next week, I may have a different take. But, now I need the importance of that commitment as my wife and I work through my imminent coming out. And, how is marriage a sexist institution? It is what we make of it.
I am actively challenging those norms within my personal control. I specifically counter anyone who says my daughter/son is beautiful/handsome and will surely have a lot of boy/girlfriends later on with something like 'or xxxx (other sex) or both, or neither really. It's up to him/her who to date if anyone, but not quite yet!' Working on my own heteronormative issues within my marriage vis a vis how can I be completely satisfied with my marriage and family but still feel like something else is lacking.
I agree with you. However, I don't agree with the heteronormative norms. I too am attracted to unavailable or straight men. In fact, the only guy I've ever been romantically involved with told me he did not want to pursue a relationship because he wanted a wife and kids even though he was gay. I think we will do everyone a favor if we stop prescribing to these norms and just be with whomever we are attracted to. I feel sympathy for the wives and children of gay men pretending to be straight just to conform to societal norms.
I gotta say I agree with a lot of what you said. Being raised religious has made me believe that now marriage is more symbolic in the commitment part. Earlier posts describe it as historically being a trade off between father and groom. Obviously culture norms change. So things being made of what we make of them is the case nowadays. Some cultures still have marriage in archaic terms we view as "flawed". I guess you can call it what you want. Marriage is marriage and it's hetero-normatized in society but who says you have to make a same-sex marriage modeled after straight-couples? I've seen some of the cutest/awesome gay couples that have gotten married. It goes down to your core beliefs of open relationships and polyamory. Marriage clearly isn't needed if you believe in those concepts.
I succumbed to the heteronormative path in my late adolescent years as the easier road to travel. As suggested, all the family and society pressures pointed me in that direction when I did not have the courage or strength to do otherwise. Its funny to look back and see how clearly ridiculous I was in making those decisions back then, although I appreciate the pressures that lead me to do so. Even those that are straight often times feel compelled to follow the heteronormative narrative when their minds would suggest otherwise. And I do believe, just like I had an awakening later in life, that even heterosexual guys have similar awakenings. Early on straight individuals get married, get a career path job, have kids, but the house and 2.5 cars. They think they have everything, but somehow are left with an empty feeling inside. I see so many friends whom have had their own awakening and realized the path they had gone down was not consistent with whom they truly were. The wife, kids, cars and house are nice on paper and to those around them, but not to themselves. So, after 15 - 20 years of marriage, they are now divorced. But, as such, just like later in lifers, they are free to follow their heart and find themselves. In this regard, I think both gay and straight individuals have similarities and complexities tied to the Heteronormative narrative.
I like the concept of marriage, and i think it is sad that some are against it, because it is an "opressor" concept or something like that (with all due respect). Sure, it has roots on heteronormativity, i don't deny that. But i think that, as long as two people are happy together, and they agree to be faithful to each other, there is nothing wrong with it. To me, that is marriage: When you love someone to such an extent that you agree to be exclusive. We have many married gay couples, that live happy together (if happiness isn't present, then, by all means, i'm in favour of divorce. There is no need to be tied to a person you don't feel confortable with). You don't need to be against marriage to be in favour of equality and respect. This.
I would challenge the need for societally determined faithfulness too. There are couples who love each other deeply, have a great marriage, but are not sexually monogamous. I'm not there yet, but I don't see a reason for my husband and I to break up to fulfill sexual needs he can't (physically) do.
