I was listening to Dan Savage's latest podcast today (my commute to the gym/work is much longer now from the new apartment, so I have time for things like podcasts!) and a few of the questions/topics really resonated with me and a lot of the current thoughts going through my head. One was talking about a "GGG" girlfriend with an over-demanding boyfriend who wanted her to do things she wasn't comfortable with (for those unfamiliar, GGG is a concept Savage came up with to suggest that partners should strive to be Good, Giving, and Game in bed; however, it doesn't mean that you should do absolutely everything your partner wants, especially if it is something that makes you uncomfortable). The second topic was about a man who had been dating his boyfriend for 4 years and feeling unsatisfied in his sex life. When he suggested an open relationship to his boyfriend to try and help the issues, he was met with a NO. But the boyfriend was also unwilling to try different things or generally help his boyfriend to feel more sexually satisfied. Anyway, also this weekend, my "wife" (or ex? You know what, for those following along often enough, I'm just going to start calling her W, okay? Haha) and I got into a talk about where we are relationship wise and even looking back at some of the mistakes we both made. I think what it comes down to more than anything else is really honesty. Well, specifically, a lack of honesty. More on my part than on her, but she is certainly guilty for certain dishonest moments as well. I know, and this is a poor excuse, that part of my dishonesty came from fear of losing her and also a big part of it was "lying" to myself (I put that in quotes because it didn't feel like a lie at the time). To be frank, I don't believe she was "GGG" at all. And bare in mind, I've never asked for anything beyond vanilla sex with her. I'm not a kinky person at all. I've asked her about her fantasies and she's always told me she had none. I definitely suggested stuff like blindfolds and maybe tying up hands, which I've done with others and found to be satisfying. She seemed intrigued but I don't recall if we ever tried it. But honestly, I think the most I ever asked for was oral sex, or 69ing, or other such pretty typical stuff. I never even asked for threesomes or anything. She just wasn't willing to do half the stuff I wanted to sexually. Now it's odd to me, because if you ask her, she'd say that we only ever did what I wanted sexually. But that's just not even remotely the way I feel about it or experienced it. When she started to feel too much pressure on sex, because of my high libido, she broke down a bit and told me so. It made me feel really awful, like I was pressuring her into sex, and I've honestly had a bit of a complex about that ever since. I've always had a complex about being the person to initiate sex more than the other, even in my past relationship, but this time it has really made me feel quite bad. The thing is, we never tried to find a middle ground. We went from sex almost daily to sex almost once a week, if it worked out. It left me super frustrated and angry, and feeling unappreciated and unloved. She apologized for that and said that she wished she had tried to compromise with me about it instead of just going the opposite direction, as it often feels like most of our problems started at this time. But where was my honesty? As I said before, I sort of let myself off the hook with the start of our relationship, where she found out I was bi (at least) and had her doubts that we should try dating, so I told her that it was just about sex with guys and that it was easier to find guys than girls to have sex with, and that I could stop and be monogamous with her. These may have proven to be lies to her, but they were also lies to myself. They were things I truly believed and things I even still struggle with. It was also at a time when I was just dumped by my ex of 7 years and feeling really vulnerable, and thinking in part that my ex broke up with me because of my sexuality, so feeling like I was going to be rejected again in a three month span for my sexuality and my "past" really hurt. When we did start dating, I did give up sex with guys. I did try being monogamous. We did have a satisfying sex with. But that only lasted a few months before my urges kicked in. I should have been honest with her at that time. Told her that my desires were returning. I'm totally positive that it would have meant breaking up, she has never given me any indication of willingness to accept my sexuality and the needs that come with it. But, and deep breath here as I admit something that I hate to admit - that's okay! She had the right to break up with me if she wanted to. She had the right to not be comfortable with something that I felt like I needed and tell me I can have that but I can't have her and have that. I stole from her for a long time the chance to make that decision. When I look at the threads by people on here like NickW and Barista, and I see the understanding spouses trying to work with them, what I'm also seeing is honesty. That you guys have opened up 100% to your spouses and told them what you need, and they now have the power and information to make whatever choice they want to make. It could have easily gone in the direction of them choosing to end things. Just because I think my relationship would have ended because of the truth doesn't mean I should have lied to keep things status quo. Of course this then brings up questions about figuring out what my truth is. Am I somebody who will want to remain in open relationships with a bit of freedom to have sex with others? I don't yet know. I'm not even sure that I can't be happy dating a woman. In fact, my past tells me I can be very happy with it. And dating men (I've put a toe in the waters of trying it out the last week or so) still doesn't feel that great yet. But I'm positive that I'll never be 100% satisfied sexually unless I'm having sex with men. So that's something to be honest with myself and others about (though for now, just dating men, it's easier to be honest about, haha). Anyway, that's the stuff currently in my head.
I'm going to come back with more thoughts about your post when I can write more, but I just wanted to comment that I'm happy to see you've made your move! Good for you! How do you like being in the new apartment?
Thank you! The apartment itself is nice. Still have a lot of actual moving of my stuff to do and new stuff to buy, but all in time. And I miss my dogs. But overall it's been a good week.
COS... reading your post, one comment is at your deep breath moment: "Told her that my desires were returning. I'm totally positive that it would have meant breaking up, she has never given me any indication of willingness to accept my sexuality and the needs that come with it. But, and deep breath here as I admit something that I hate to admit - that's okay! She had the right to break up with me if she wanted to." you don't know that, I think you're projecting, it may or may not be true. When push came to shove, she may have compromised. I wouldn't form any conclusion from that, because you don't know for sure. And regarding honesty, the intimate relationship we long for is where we can be completely honest, and we won't lose our partner. That assumes a very healthy, self confident partner, who will not feel devalued or unloved by our wanting an open relationship, a boyfriend, etc. Generally, w with bisexual man, his bf will not feel unloved if the primary partner has a gf. It's more likely his gf will feel unloved due to the bf... because of the culture... but not always of course. Alot of relationships have compromise. Often in an open relationship, one partner doesn't want to hear about the other partner, tho I know of a bi triad of a woman & 2 men who live together, and are close. But due to the uncertainty in this area, I don't tell my gf I'm bi, because it's unpredictable how she'll react... tho generally I find myself in rel w women who are also bi to some degree. This is in line w David Deida's point that people often attract their opposites: a masc straight male attracts a fem straight woman, a fem sraoght male attracts a masc straight woman, bi attracts bi, vers attracts vers, bttm attracts top. Due to the uncertainty in rel, I've found it best to say less than more (don't over share) ... that may be my ego talking, who wants what he wants ... but to tell every little detail in your mind, about one partner, may leave another partner feeling unloved.
It's interesting that you should post this today. I've just been thinking about how (un)fair it is to my partner, that he doesn't know anything about my questioning, and whether or not I should be honest so that he can make up his own mind. I feel guilty when he talks about plans for the future, when it's not a future that I really want. I can understand the fear of losing your relationship with your wife. Throughout my relationship, I've always been happy to bury my head in the sand, because to raise any issues might result in the relationship ending. Now we're on completely different pages, and I don't think there's any way back. On one of our first dates, I can actually remember him asking me if I'd ever thought about sex with another woman. I lied and said no, because he said that he'd never thought about sex with another man, and I thought he just wouldn't understand.
You're right that I don't know for sure, but I do have some reasons for assuming such, including the fact that she broke up with me 4 times at the start of our dating almost four years ago due to not being comfortable with my sexuality.
There's a lot of good reflection on what you wrote and you hit on several good points. I think fear is a huge factor for many of us who kept our sexual identity and/or needs from our spouses. We love our partners and don't want to lose them, so we cover up our situation by lying to ourselves and others to protect our relationship. In the end, the constantly draining energy it took to protect my wife from the truth is what ate me up, along with the fear of what might happen once I let her in on my secret life. Only in hindsight, can most of us realize the benefit of the honesty. Being 100% honest has brought us closer in ways that I never could have imagined. You were lying to yourself, but I think you shouldn't beat yourself up over it. You obviously liked this woman and you wanted to convince yourself you could take the extra steps necessary to be with her. Perhaps you were still struggling to figure out your identity? (I'm kind of throwing my own situation into this). And again, I think fear was keeping you from realizing the truth. Boom! As long as you remain honest with yourself and others, I think your future relationships will be much more successful. I'm so happy to hear you've had these self realizations. I hope the apartment situation works out well for you and that you and W can continue to talk and heal your relationship in some way.
Yes! I can relate entirely to us putting our heads in the sand and now in many ways not being anywhere near the same page anymore. It's a little hard to think of how much one should reveal in the early days of dating. I honestly don't know that I ever planned to tell her I was into guys. She only found out because of a blog my ex posted on FB (long story, but that's the short version). Even now as I start to date guys, I feel funny mentioning that I've only been in relationships with women, and was sort of married to one pretty recently.
While honesty is the most important thing. I am not sure that a mixed orientation relationship can work without a great deal of trust too. How can you trust someone you have just met? So, full disclosure of one's sexuality may be a deal breaker in a new relationship. And, without that honesty the relationship may not survive... My wife admitted that she may not have married me if she had known my sexual orientation when we dated. Although I still remind her that she sorta knew and chose to ignore it. My trust situation is pretty unique though. My wife witnessed me save a drowning man within a month of meeting. Then I saved two other lives at significant risk early in our marriage. So, my wife has clear evidence of my character. That is why she was so quick to forgive me and give me the benefit of the doubt. I don't really know how you really convey your trust worthiness without extraordinary opportunities. You really need the clock to run for awhile to do this. Or you need to hang out and prevent stupid people from dying! COS I am pretty impressed with how thoughtful and open you are becoming. I think you will find what you need.
That's great! How does it feel emotionally? Do you feel you've made a huge step? I'm proud of you! About your original post: There are a lot of things you address in there, and I think what you say about honesty with your partner, as well as being GGG, are both key ingredients in making a viable open relationship. But I think probably the first ingredient is being honest with yourself. I think many of us on here, myself and, I think you as well, have fed ourselves lies much of our lives. But now you're on a path that is helping you gain better clarity in how to be honest with yourself. I think that this path is different for all of us. But the important thing is, you are making strides to get there. I think that being honest with your wife may have led to greater openness on her part, but it also may not have. There are so many factors involved in whether she herself would be comfortable in being GGG about this. At some point I wonder whether it does any good to think about what ifs and maybes. This is the path you've taken to get where you are now. Ultimately, it's about where you see yourself going next. What is it you can see as your next step to help you learn more about you, and to grow?
Honesty has cost me almost everything I held dear. But I realize now that it's the only way to live your life. You are no longer carrying around the weight of all those lies. It is very freeing.
Thank you! I'm definitely still struggling with figuring out my identity. I know it sounds like I have it so figured out, but every time I think I do, mentally I feel that pull back. I logically know a lot of it is fear, but its still there and its arguments are still kind of convincing at times. ---------- Post added 7th Jun 2016 at 08:01 AM ---------- The hard part too is I've broken her trust in many little ways already, so even if we started with some sort of trust, we're now in the red on trust. So it is even more difficult to imagine ending up in a situation where things will be more open for me with her. We talked a lot yesterday and it was kind of frustrating for me. I was trying to explain to her some of what I said here, and she took it as a chance to say that I really need to think about if I can handle being in a monogamous relationship with a woman and not "go running to a man" every time things get rough or our sex life gets bad. She specifically pointed out to me that when having kids, there can be a long period of time where we wouldn't be able to have sex because of her having given birth. What then, when I act like I can't go even a week without sex? Now, this whole point from her was frustrating. First off, I don't just run to men when things are bad. I'm attracted to men and desire sex with men at all times. That never goes away. Second, I didn't like the context of her message. It sounded to me like she was basically saying this is how its going to be and you have to figure out how to make it work. Like it's all on me. I get that if she's saying she wants us to be monogamous or not be together at all, then yes I have a responsibility (if I choose to be in this relationship) to stay monogamous. But I think that equally means she takes on some responsibility to then help keep me sexually satisfied. I don't know entirely what that means yet. I've never tried say having sex with a woman while talking out a fantasy about a hot guy or something. I'm extremely vanilla sexually. Like, I'm not even sure the idea of her using toys on me or something appeals to me at all. But maybe some dirty talk or porn watching? At the least, sex way more often than what we were having it. And more satisfying. Which brings us to - third, sex isn't just intercourse! I get that if she popped out a kid naturally she might not be able to have intercourse for a few months, but there's so much more you can do sexually. She doesn't seem to get that. Of course, when I tried pointing these counterpoints out, she said I wasn't listening to her and was pushing the conversation past where she wanted it to go right now, and missing the point entirely. I don't really get how that is, but this feels again why I have a hard time opening up to her and being honest. Because I'm told that I'm not listening to her and missing the point. But I thought my responses were in line with what she was asking. I also told her that I do think about the kid thing a lot, because I've always sort of known that having kids one day would mean a slowing down in sex life. But, well, I thought that THAT'S when we'd be having sex once a week. Considering we hit the once a week schedule within the first two years of our relationship, with no kids or other things that should make it that hard to find the time to be intimate, it genuinely scares me how little we might be intimate once we have a kid. Sometimes I feel like the difference between us is she wants a partner and I want a romantic relationship. And granted, a marriage should be about both things, but it feels like she's way more focused on partner and I'm more focused on romance/sex.
Barista, as always very engaging! In terms of the apartment, and my current emotional state, it's all still pretty confusing. I've been feeling more relaxed and less stressed, so that's good. Sleeping better. That said, I really am still very confused by the state of things regarding my relationship. I'm still afraid to completely let go, and so is she. The other day she told me she's not in love with me anymore (she loves me, but she doesn't think she can be in love with somebody she doesn't trust). And yet the next day we were essentially talking about the stuff I said above, about if we were to work things out, how I'd have to decide certain things. I've gone on two dates in the last week or so, with guys. Supposed to go on a third tonight, but not sure if it's still on yet. The first guy was very nice and we've been talking for awhile. He's not what I'm looking for overall (he's a virgin, at 28, by choice and doesn't seem eager to change that, which I totally respect but given that he's not even open to kissing, it feels like not what I'm in the market for). The second guy was actually great. Very handsome, and we had a great conversation the entire time we were together. We had a ton in common. And he's even younger than I am (he's 24). But, I don't know. I didn't feel any particular romantic interest in him. I definitely want to see him more and get to be friends at the very least. But it wasn't the sort of thing where in the first five minutes I felt like I needed to jump his bones. I'm not sure I have a sexual interest in him at all, which is confusing enough lol. But I can't act like this doesn't have me thinking again about how maybe I'm not just homosexual hetero-romantic or whatever else you want to call it. I know, I fell for guys before, but maybe they were the minor exception, not the rule. This feels a lot like what I did back when I was 20 when I tried dating guys. But maybe I wasn't wrong then? I really just don't know. ---------- Post added 7th Jun 2016 at 08:21 AM ---------- Lying is exhausting. I think more than anything else, that's what it comes down to.
COS Are you still trying to patch things up with her, or are you playing a bit of Monday morning quarterback here? I agree that your wife didn't come to the table with intimacy. But, if you didn't communicate it then you cannot really blame her either. I made this mistake with my wife. It sounds like you and I were in a similar situation for awhile. Although, in my case, the infrequent sex started much later in my marriage. I would have, quite possibly, exploded at your age with once a week sex! My wife is a hard core bicyclist and she had a bad hysterectomy surgery outcome. The combination make intercourse something that can not be all that great for her sometimes. She failed to disclose this and instead avoided me which made me feel undesired. I am creative...there are other fun things to do that don't involve prolonged intercourse that we are now being much more active with. I just wanted more intimacy, of any kind, with her. Your wife's lack of creativity and compromise does not bode well looking ahead. Even without the complication of your same sex desires. If maintaining intimacy is important to one of you, but not the other, a long distance marriage will suffer. Mine almost failed and my wife and I are the most perfectly matched couple I know. My view, and now my wife's, is that the responsibility of providing those intimacy needs is up to both of us. Each of our needs should be something the other is motivated to fill or there is something fundamentally wrong with the relationship. This includes, in our cases, some same sex needs.
I'm not sure what we're doing just yet, haha. There's a bit of playing Monday morning quarterback for sure (I'm a Jets fan, it comes naturally) and there's probably still a little bit of exploring if things could be patched up somehow. So the time-line, relationship wise, of our sex/intimacy kind of looks like this. We started dating in late 2012. We started hooking up pretty much right away. She tells me that it's the quickest she's ever started having sex with somebody she was dating (she's never had a one night stand, and has had full relationships where she never had sex with her boyfriend at all. She also was sexually assaulted in some capacity while living abroad when she was in college, though to this day she still won't open up to me entirely about what happened. She never went to see a therapist regarding it, and sometimes I have to believe that it has something to do with everything. She once dated a guy who broke up with her because she wanted too much sex, and she now jokes that she believes he was gay even though he's married to a woman now. She also dated a guy after college for about 5 years who she didn't have sex with for most of the relationship. He ended up cheating on her with another woman). Sorry for the tangent into her sexual history. Anyway, for the first year or so, our sex life was great. We had sex almost every time we got together. Our relationship itself was rocky. She broke up with me four times, mostly over my sexuality. Finally she gave things a real chance, partly because I promised her sleeping with guys was in my past and I wanted to believe it too. Sex continued to be pretty consistent and pretty darn good. Then we moved in together. Now, admittedly, it was probably too soon. She didn't feel ready, though I argued that it just made sense since I was spending 6 nights a week at her apartment and paying rent for a place to essentially just hold my stuff. Once I moved it, stuff started to change. Suddenly there were rules. No sex after 9 pm. It became something that we rushed through instead of taking our time to enjoy. At first we were still have sex almost daily, though I always had to initiate (memory tells me that was true even before, but I can't be sure entirely. I know in the entirety of our relationship, she's never once given me oral first or without me doing it to her, and I've many times done it to her and not gotten it back. One time I did it to her and she was going to do it back, but then I mentioned that I didn't plan to spend the night and she decided that she wasn't going to do it anymore). I could literally tell she had no interest in doing it at times. So I talked to her about it, which lead to her breaking down and saying she felt too pressured for sex and I had to stop. So I did. I changed it so that I never asked anymore and we'd do it when she wanted to. And that's when it became once a week, maybe twice if I was lucky. She acknowledged the other day that we probably should have discussed and found a middle ground instead of going in the total opposite direction. I had told her that she should say no to me more often if she wasn't in the mood, which is true, but it became me getting shot down nine times out of ten. And then we started having our problems. And it became even less than once a week. And it became only intercourse in only one position. And she admitted to me (after I asked her to maybe see a doctor or therapist because I thought she might be depressed or have something that was cutting down her sex drive) that she wanted to have sex and was horny all the time, but because of my sexuality, was having a hard time having it with me. Even now she says that our sex issue is far from her priority on things to work at if we were working on our relationship, and sex/intimacy is off the table for now (she went out of her way to say she didn't want to say forever, because she was still figuring that out for herself). But yeah...I really never expected that only a couple of years in, long before the pressure of kids meant having less time to even make for anything, this would be an issue we'd face. And it could always be. I just don't know.
Gosh COS Your description sounds like sex is about control. She is not attracted sexually to you because of your orientation? If she really feels this way; and this is not just manipulative behavior, I would consider that alone reason to discontinue the relationship. If she is using sex to manipulate or control, another good reason to flee! I get that there is a difference in sex drives. My wife and I have that problem. But, there is a willingness to compromise. Without compromise or consideration how can you move forward at all? COS, I love my wife dearly. But, I had decided if she could not accept my sexuality, there would be no way I could stay in the marriage we have. In my case, I could have forgiven her because she didn't know. But, I could not have stayed with the understanding that she could not love me...all of me. That is a deal breaker. If you are bi, you can agree to stop having sex with guys, sure. But, you cannot hide who you are or what those desires are. I tried. Really bad idea. If you are gay...well...you know the answer.
She definitely treats sex as a control mechanism, to a degree. Withholding sex because she isn't getting what she wants. That has bothered me in the past for sure.
Hey COS, Sorry to hear the conversations between you and W are so rough right now. Sounds like you two have some big compatibility issues in the bedroom. I second what Nick said about the control thing. No sex after 9pm? I get it if someone isn't into oral or whatever. Everyone has their thing that turns them on. I can't remember if I've asked you this before. Have you gone to couples therapy? Sounds like you need a mediator if you want to rectify things between the two of you. If either of you isn't into that, I don't know how you guys can come to an understanding.
The no sex after 9 pm thing is because, as she explained to me, sex wakes her up. It's weird to me because I find sex to be incredible relaxing, but she feels awake after sex and since she likes to be asleep by 9:30/10 pm, she wants to be in bed and not having sex by 9. It's not the worst thing ever. The annoying thing is when she doesn't get home from work until 7 pm, and we have to eat dinner, and walk the dogs at 8 pm (they get four long walks a day...I'm not kidding) and then we're back and it's 8:45 and...yeah. Guess who doesn't get laid during the week. :bang: She doesn't want to do couples therapy. I almost had her agreeing to it awhile ago, but then the price ended up being crazy and she was already not that into it, so we didn't do it. She doesn't believe in therapy. I definitely think this is a central issue.
Sorry I'm just now getting around to responding. Been MIA the last few days. The cost of therapy is crazy. Once my wife and I were out of crisis mode we had to stop because we couldn't afford it. Most work on a sliding scale and will lower rates of asked. But if a spouse didn't want to work through these issues in therapy, to me that is someone who didn't want to do the work to mend a relationship. I get it. I was against therapy my entire life until after years of depression I finally succumbed. I saw thing to therapy as a weakness for not figuring my own shit. But was I wrong. Couples therapy really helped my wife and I figure things out.
