Does anybody else ever wonder about this? Do you guys ever wonder at the absurdity of just how much "ado about nothing" our society makes about who you goddamn love, who you desire, who turns you on, who you want to build a life with? And then with all this noise, this social shitstorm about sexual orientation, within the LGBT community even there is sometimes a need to prove you're gay enough, your identity is true and real. If I were an alien looking down on earth (bear with me, guys), let's say my species has no gender, wouldn't this all just be so baffling? The torment, the struggle, the angst and the hatred that happen all around this inconsequential thing? (Note that I mean it's inconsequential to those who are not gay, bi, pan, trans*; but to be who you are or be with whomever you choose without shame is indeed important, of course). Sometimes I step back and think about all of this from a distance, and I think, how absurd, that so much of my life experience has been coloured by social norms that have seemingly no logical reasoning behind them. Am I alone in this line of thinking?
Not at all, I totally understand where you are coming from. I even wonder if evolution hasn't caught up yet (now bear with me!) I mean there are too many people in the world and we don't need more people so surely LGBT people are good because they are perhaps less likely to have children? Perhaps LGBT people are the future, and we will become more than the estimated 10% we are now? Please feel free to disregard any of that, just a thought. But I agree it seems insane, especially as historically in some societies in was accepted and it has taken so long to be accepted in our society today. I wonder what it will be like in say, 50 to 100 years time?
People are so dissatisfied with their own lives, they need to project that dissatisfaction onto others.
Dirtyshirt - I like your thoughts on this, LGBT people are the future! I do think that more young people are expressing that they are somewhere on the Kinsey scale other than zero than have ever reported; I read that somewhere, and it seemed like I want to say 50% or something - yup here's the article. https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/08/16/half-young-not-heterosexual/ That's from the UK, there's another study in the US that says 1/3 of young American adults are bi. STUDY: 1 in 3 American Young Adults Identify on Bisexual Spectrum | Advocate.com The more accepted it is, the more people are acknowledging their identity, and the more common we see it really is. I think that's a good sign of where our society's heading. ---------- Post added 9th Jun 2016 at 04:17 AM ---------- This is so true. And of course anyone that might be out of the norm becomes the scapegoat. It's a problem as old as humankind.
From this source: A term coined in the late 19th century for a phenomenon that has occupied philosophical minds since the time of Socrates in western culture. Also interesting is the appeal to "natural law" to formulate objections to it. And yet, in some other cultures, perhaps those that are more in harmony with nature than against it (which seems to be a characteristic of most monotheistic faiths and their "natural" law), loving members of the same gender is indeed honoured and accepted. It goes to the heart of the way we think about things in our own culture, about hard definitions and scientific certainties. The problem lies in our own methods of perceiving nature, the flaw is in our whole Cartesian edifice of reason which must have things this way or that, without nuance. There are numerous instances of other cultures where young men would engage in sex with other men, then go on to marry and have kids later in life. No one objected to that, it was considered normal. All to say that we too often confuse our culture with Nature, as if the way we live is the only "real" way to live. We make a big deal of being LGBT because the entire culture is built to perceive it as something against Nature...
When you consider how black-and-white our ideas of what makes a man and a woman are, it's not surprising. Then you get the idea that men and women are only attracted to one another to create babies, and boom! Another strike. Being small in number and grossly stereotyped, and you've got your perfect cocktail. It would be nice to live in a world where someone didn't have to come out. People would be open with their attractions, and no one would bat an eyelid. Homophobia, transphobia, and sexism wouldn't be as big of an issue. I'm not going to go into too many details, but in a nutshell: men have much to do with it.
This topic is making me feel like writing some short fiction, set in a very gender bending and pan romantic world. But I'm awful with follow-through so I likely won't ever write it. Greatwhale, this is a really interesting perspective. I like how you put it in terms of cultures that are more in touch with nature versus those like ours which yearn for sharper lines, hard science and distinct categories. I wish I could get deeper in understanding what is it in our culture's collective psyche that makes this particular "category" threatening. Why not, for instance, have hard and fast social rules about when gay is ok and when it's not? Actually, speaking of it that way, I think that some cultures which had been OK with homosexuality were very rigid in understanding it as a "social practice", with rules of right and wrong, while other cultures had much more flexible understanding of sexuality, sexual orientation, gender, etc. Perhaps these different versions of acceptance of homosexuality also correlate to western/hard science oriented cultures like ours versus those more in touch with nature. I'm not sure if my thoughts are translating as word soup or making a coherent train of thought. ---------- Post added 9th Jun 2016 at 09:25 AM ---------- Yes, this is so true. It's all tied together- gender norms, religion, and a sense of folks deviating from the norm being "wrong". I think that gender is such a fascinating and surreal topic in and of itself. It's hard for me to wrap my head around my own gender identity sometimes. What is that makes me a woman, what is at the core of that definition? In my thread on gender, I talked about how much I feel at odds with much of what is considered feminine, but yet I feel like my identity as a woman is comfortable. I also agree with what you say about how nice it would be if people need not come out, just being and doing what's natural to themselves.
Of course, my hard science tells me that many many animal species exhibit non-heterosexual behaviours, but then I am an actual scientist. So many people have a strange view of science and the nature of evidence. I do find it faintly ridiculous that people are so fussed about what to me is obviously part of the natural variation of life.
Im with CharacterStudy... what has only just started to emerge in "western" culture and thought is that there IS a natural variation to life. Perhaps the short coming in enlightened Darwinian thought is that it places our science at a purely biological and therefore reproductive level. By the way I have no doubt that Darwinian evolutionary theory is more-or-less right. But we have evolved way beyond the purely biological. Human nature is hugely variable (because of evolution)... and a perfectly reasonable outcome is that some of us are gay.
I agree, but we have made so much progress in my lifetime. I grew up in a military that would kick you out and courtmartial you if you were discovered to be gay. Bill Clinton actually made great leaps with "don't ask/don't tell" even though people continually bashed that rule. It helped to stop, or maybe just slow, witchhunts against gays in the military. Amazingly, a few weeks ago I went to the Exchange on the military base near me and there it was. A banner (albeit not huge, but a banner nonetheless) celebrating LGBT month, complete with rainbow colors. I mean, it's the law, but for that to happen still amazes me. I am in awe of the things I see now that I thought could never happen. So, as jacked up as you may think things are now, imagine 20, 30, 50 years ago. I can't even imagine....
Things ARE improving. DADT, as half-assed as it was, was a necessary step in the process. Society was not ready for full acceptance of gay people in the military, so DADT was a stepping stone. I applaud President Clinton for what he did, because it laid the foundation for full legal recognition in the military. We are seeing a backlash now, in particular against gender non-conforming people. Even some in the LGB community are extremely transphobic, to the extent of there being a "Remove the 'T'" campaign to remove the T from LGBT. The religious right has found a new scapegoat since they are recognizing that the fight against gay rights has essentially been lost. All that's left is the mop ups on that front, so those that desperately need hate in order to feel morally superior to others need a new target. That would be those of us that don't strictly adhere to the nominal designated-at-birth gender binary. This, too, shall pass eventually, and then they'll move on to yet another marginalized group. Maybe, once they run out of people to hate, they'll grow up, or possibly turn on each other and devour themselves like a snake eating its own tail in some moralistic singularity that eventually disappears in a puff of logic. Hey, a girl can hope, right?
I sometimes think about this too. Before I was questioning, I often used to think that the world would be a better place without the assumption that everybody heterosexual. As others have said, I think that there is an historical element to this too. As part of my degree, I studied attitudes towards homosexual acts in Europe, in the early modern period (1500-1750). Historians use the phrase 'homosexual acts' because 'homosexuality' is too modern to be applied to this period. Historians have related it to so many things; contemporary understanding of how the body functions; gender constructions; patriarchy; maintaining social order; importance of procreation and inheritance; morality. I'd go into more depth, but I'd have to dig out all my references!
I've said it before on here, but it blows my mind seeing the younger generation's acceptance level with sexuality. I see it with my younger brother (who is 24 and has been openly gay to everyone since he was at least 19), and obviously with my friends/roommates who are 18 and 19 respectively. It almost feels weird that I, at 32, go to them at 18/19 and have the "but how did you know you were gay?" conversations. They're so much more comfortable in their skins than I have figured out how to be so far. The thing to me too is I graduated high school 15 years ago, and college 11 years ago. It's not THAT long ago. And yet nobody at my high school was openly gay. I had one teacher who I suspect was somewhere on the gender scale (identified as Mister, but always looked/acted more like a woman, so it was confusing at the time). But no fellow students were openly gay. Even in college, there were maybe 10 kids who were openly gay or bi. And I'm including myself in that number. The world has changed so much in all that time and it definitely feels like it has changed for the better.
I've found myself feeling the need to argue w/people on Facebook on this topic, however, it doesn't help. Instead, I point the issue back at them: Why is this such a trigger for you? What is going on with you that this is such a hot-button issue for you? Are you a homosexual repressing his/her desires? Needless to say, they ain't fond of that. LOL. I think it's just easier to focus on the lives of others, rather than your own. Who wants to deal with your own mess, when it's so much easier to point out someone else's "alleged" flaws or sins? And when they bring up the bible, c'mon...
