I moved from OH a few years ago and am still struggling to find the lesbo community. Yes, I know about ProSuzy but my work schedule makes many of the events inaccessible to me. In Cleveland years ago there was a sense of community which has gradually wound down as the oldsters, moved away, fried out, died off or whatever. I moved there when I was in my mid 30's, and rapidly embraced that community only to find out I was seen as a "dinosaur" because I identified as a stone butch and I needed "to embrace my feminine side." I quickly learned several things: I could embrace that side of me as much as possible, but it did nothing to alter the way I responded to women. Speaking up was probably not wise. Finding support or even a few others that so identified themselves as I did was not likely to happen. So I learned to be quiet and dealt with the rejection of womyn who were not patient or understanding or accepting. I have searched online to find an active site where maybe I could find some "stones" to talk to - even here, I cannot find any active thread. I spent more than 50 years being quiet and not talking to anyone who could accept or understand or relate to anything I might feel. Today is my 69th birthday and although I may be older, I'm not dead. I am posting this to see if there is anyone else out there who feels the same and is interested in communicating whatever is on your mind also. To any haters out there: please save your energy for some other venture to vent in. Over a lifetime, I have heard most of the versions of anything you have to say.
I'm not really stone or even butch, soft butch maybe? But I do find it sad that butch lesbians are being forced out of existence at this point. We're either told to be more feminine or we're told we're trans men in denial. It's sad that even the LGBT community has conservative thinking when it comes to gender roles.
Thanks for your reply. I am hoping by this post to encourage others like me to speak up. I am fairly certain I am not really alone in being stone. I may however, be alone in that I may have searched too long and waited quietly too long that this message will go un-noticed because womyn like me gave up long ago finding anyone else they could talk to safely.
Not butch either, but I just wanted to say you don't have to worry about any haters on this site. I hope you do find another stone to talk to, but even if you don't you won't be judged here so there is that at least. The first person that came to mind is one of the writers from Autostraddle, Kate, who is also a stone. She is a fair bit younger than you, but it's something I guess? There are so many labels these days that I guess most who would previously have identified as "stone butch" go by queer, boi, genderqueer or some other label. Here is a link to one of her articles about her experiences.
Thank you also for your reply. Great article and well-written and I thank you for that also, as well as your assurance haters are not something I should be concerned about here.
Well, I personally think being butch is sexy. I'd hope that you're not the last, dotster. I myself am a bit of a tomboy but not butch per se. I'm sorry you're finding it hard to find acceptance from others.
I'm sure you're not the last stone butch. Problem I've seen is not many people have good places to meet up, so nobody meets each other. I'm not butch, but I appreciate bitch women just as much (if not more) than femme or tomboy. I'm between tomboy and chapstick myself.
Thanks to you both for your comments. Interesting to note, I may just be a dinosaur afterall since no respondents have identified themselves, but am encouraged that younger womyn feel so supportive in their comments.
Happy Birthday Dotser! It's nice to see someone of your age reaching out via the Internet - I work with people your age (in-patient physical rehab facility) and many of them can't use technology to save their lives. I'm a transman myself, but I'd much rather see a "stone butch" than a woman being forced to ID as a trans man just because that's the way it's done. I hope you aren't the end of an era, because that would mean more people being forced into roles that are not their own. I think it might just be that my generation uses a different lingo than yours - it's not that nobody IDs like you, just that they don't use the same terms.
Happy birthday, and welcome. I agree with Althidon terminology maybe an issue, I'm in my mid 30s and have never heard anyone identify as stone butch before even though I've met plenty of very sexy, very butch women.
Well, I had just started to respond to Althidon when you posted, Bunny. I thank you both for adding your thoughts to this thread. Bunny, when I was getting pushed by the radical lesbian feminists in my home town, you were probably not born yet. I cannot speak for all, but to me and how I identify, as a Stone Butch, I was highly attracted to highly feminine energized womyn. I was/am quite masculine in appearance - feel much more comfortable in what is thought of as "male" clothing, my hair was always shorter and womyn attracted to me always spoke of my "male" energy. I never identified myself as being trapped in the wrong body - I had no wish for a penis. I was not so into "role-playing" with any type of rigidity, but did I keep up the maintenance on the house and the cars ,yes, but I also enjoyed cooking and baking. Sounds a lot like a butch. What made me "stone" was in my sexual response. My satisfaction came from doing everything I could to fully satisfy my partner and mostly achieved my own orgasm as she achieved hers through my actions to her, without her actually touching me sexually. In the 60's, this was not so problematic - where I lived, there was not a community I was aware of. Most of the womyn I found to be involved with were dipping their toes into lesbian experiences - divorcees or "bi-curious". They understood my energy and were attracted to it - and "enjoyed the ride." By the 70's, I found a community, but radical lesbian feminists seemed to think people like me held back the "movement" toward sexual equality and feminine mutuality in relationships. The message from many sides was basically to get with the program and expand my mindset. Stone butches were throw-backs and perpetualized backward thinking and stereotypical role-playing. Maybe some Stones did and maybe that somehow interfered with the radical agenda. I had hoped to find a community that was accepting and inclusive and found instead that I would be included as long as I kinda found a way to fly under the radar somehow. I did that by not talking or trying to find others that related as I did. I was not so political and wanted to find a way to be included in the safety of a community. I had my periods of trying to "embrace my feminine side" - a cure I found as handy and successful as the miracle "good fuck" of the 60's that would "cure" my lesbianism. I was rejected by some potential lovers because of "my limitations." Other womyn, never had a problem with it because they wanted for nothing and understood I was not somehow "left out." Perhaps you have not heard the terms because enough Stones learned the same lessons I did and stopped wishing to speak or engage in discussions. As I said in my original post, I am hoping to find some other gals who also have been silent too long. Althidon: I have a lot of interest in the new lingo. I admit to not being in the mainstream of lesbian thinking any longer. Our community waned as some of us organizers lost energy, or moved away, or died off or just dropped out. I had a youngster I adopted that took much of my attention for enough years that I missed the demise. When I finally had more time, there was not much to come back to and then we re-located. I see you identify as a transman and pansexual. Of course I did some searching because these are both terms I do not know. I admit to being a little confused as one source indicated that transmen were post-surgical and another said just that they identified as male. I do have a lot of male energy, but never felt I was a male or wanted that for myself. The term just "butch" falls short of identifying me because it does not include my sexual response. When I was a teen, I was certainly gay and as certainly had no role models anywhere and sex in general was pretty repressed. Perhaps that repression is what honed my sexual response. I have a feeling that possibly lesbians who came into their own in the 80's and 90's and beyond - after the sexual revolution/explosion - may not identify or respond as "Stone." So much has changed in how womyn have learned to relate to each other. I also think in part some of this change is a direct result of the absence of the oppression the "closet" brought about by the Gay Rights movement. I guess I would be interested in hearing if my hunches are accurate about younger lesbians.
Dotster, your posts make me wish I could sit down and have a long conversation with older lesbians of all identities, butch, femme, or what have you, and learn about their experiences. I tend to date slightly older, say 5-10 years range, and those who have been out longer speak of issues I've never had. It makes them uncomfortable with any types of public displays of affection, which I am quite comfortable with and even enjoy. I feel like there is so much more I should know, but I really need those connections and that sense of community.
RosePetals: The times were so very different when I came out. Society in general was so much more conservative. The Closet doors were pretty tightly closed and locked with double padlocks. You could be fired or beaten or raped (in the name of "helping me find the right fuck cure") just for being seen leaving one of "those" bars. Holding hands in public was a real act of bravery that could land you in jail. Whether it is because of my impulsive nature or bull-headed-ness, I thoroughly pushed limits about PDA's and am happy that era has mostly disappeared. I was a soldier in the trenches with so many others, pushing against the repression and hoping someday as a result of those pushes, it would get better for all of us, however we identified to be out in the world and the world would be okay we were there. Social change never happens on its own - it happens because people hammer against the limitations. I see some of those gains on more tenuous grounds as the Haters and Bible-thumpers have pushed back in recent years. I see also the set-backs in racial tolerance occurring on a parallel path. Haters seem to grow in strength cyclically. As one group moves forward, they have to step up to try to push that group back in place. The LBGTQ community as a whole has been so repressed for so very long, you would think they would be more welcoming and supportive to all, no matter how one identifies, but sadly, that is not always true. Where your dates were raised and how long they have been out is probably the biggest factor in their avoidance of PDA's. Be patient and find ways to talk with them about it so you can understand what underlies their discomfort. Perhaps you can bring about a change in them when they have had a chance to say out-loud some of their experiences.
For most of the transgender people I know, identifying as a trans-male just means that I identify and want to live/be seen as a man. I haven't had any surgeries, and in fact have lived most of my male life without hormones - I changed my presentation, cut my hair, and told people I was a man. I absolutely understand how someone could have a "male energy" and not want to be seen as male. However, most of the people today that I hear talk like that end up using a term like "genderqueer" or "gender fluid" to define themselves - they're not totally women, but they aren't men either. I get how that's different from being a butch woman, and I know of butch women too, but the gender-fluid IDs are becoming a lot more common. As far as what you said about the "stone" label meaning how you like to have sex...I don't think there's a comparable "modern" label for that. I don't think it means that's gone away, just that people aren't using it. I wonder if some of the lesbians that ID as asexual but have sex because it makes their partners happy might not have previously used a stone label.
I think the change in the way it's labeled might be part of it. Many people that would've called themselves "stone" before now just refer to themselves as a "top". But that can have many connotations as well. I identify as predominantly a top, but I do like to be touched. Some tops don't at all. And there are a lot of ways that I won't let a woman touch me. Perhaps things are less defined now than they were before in some ways?
Wow...I have been away too long. There are little fireworks going off in my brain. Thank you for coming back and posting again. I have spent some time on this site, reading a number of posts. Some have been confusing a bit to me, but are somewhat clearer now after reading what you wrote here. When you write: people...I hear talk like that end up using a term like "genderqueer" or "gender fluid" to define themselves - they're not totally women, but they aren't men either. it feels like that does not fit me as i feel totally female with a lot of male energy, but never felt like I was in any way male or wanted to be seen as one. and then: I wonder if some of the lesbians that ID as asexual but have sex because it makes their partners happy might not have previously used a stone label asexual does not fit for me either because I was and am very clear about the type of woman that still attracts me - she used to be described as a pillow princess lesbian, which i never managed to find previously. i found those kind of qualities in het women who were or had been unhappy in their marriages and hit on me. A couple of those relationships were fairly long-term, but they never said they realized after being with me that they were lesbian. They just fell in love with me and i happened to be a woman. perhaps you are right though in thinking there may be no modern term for "stone." Your remarks about yourself did open quite a few questions I am wondering about. I won't presume to ask you in this space unless you are ok about that. ---------- Post added 24th Jul 2016 at 02:41 PM ---------- oooooohhhhh shoot, I took too long thinking about Althidon's message and then replying. RosePetals: thanks to you for coming back to add to this thread. Maybe top is the "modern" identifier when I look into that further. It does not seem to encompass all that "stone" does, but "stone" is such an old (and generally not positive) term that perhaps got dropped so that those who are stone would be more generally accepted in the greater community they were associated with.
Being masculine or having male energy doesn't make you not a woman though. I have nothing against real genderqueer people, but these days it feels gender is all about gender roles and forcing others into a box. I know you said It's different than butch woman, so I'm not ranting against you. It's just frustrating that these days I have to follow sexist, oppressive gender roles to be a woman.
Are you addressing me, Loli21 or just the quote from Althidon? ..." these days it feels gender is all about gender roles and forcing others into a box... It's just frustrating that these days I have to follow sexist, oppressive gender roles to be a woman." These words of yours reminded of how I felt trying to find a way to "fit in" a very long time ago. I admit freely to being out of step with the times today. I have to sit on the computer and open more windows to search and then read a bit before I feel like I can reply. If there is still the level of pressure to follow and conform to whatever terms that are used to talk about ourselves, perhaps as a culture we have not progressed as far as it seems. It was not my intention to open that aspect in this thread. I was seriously trying to see if there were any "stones" left out there to talk to.
