Here's something I struggle with, and I'm not sure why. For as long as I can remember, I've looked at sex and love as two different categories. Like I can always remember being attracted to guys, curious about it from the age of like 11/12, and definitely physically crushing on and fantasizing about guys sexually from like 14 forward. But I never had a romantic crush on a guy. It was never "wow he's so sweet, I want to be his boyfriend" or anything like that. It was strictly sexual. Now yes, with women I've had romantic crushes and interest in dating. I've not had the physical attraction, maybe slight interest but definitely never the same draw as I had to the guys I described above. I can become attracted to a woman once I have feelings for her, and sex has been good, sometimes even great, with the two women I've been with and were in long term relationships with. I was in love with them, so it totally makes sense. But I am left wondering why I have that divide. It makes the whole question of my sexuality kind of confusing. Like, it's hard to say I'm bisexual when I don't really react to any woman I see on the street the way I know other guys do (I hang out with trainers at a boxing gym...trust me, I hear how guys react to hot girls). But then I don't have and not sure I even want the romantic connection with guys usually, and it's almost always a physical thing with them. My 19-year-old gay friend said that this confuses him about me too. Because he knew he was gay before he was even physically attracted to guys, because he would have crushes on guys in elementary school. And that makes sense to me! I get that there has to be some physical attraction when you're interested in somebody (you're not just dating because hey you're gay, and I'm gay, so let's have brunch!) but there should be something more there too, shouldn't there be? When I started dating guys at the age of 20, I reasoned it out very simply - I like having sex with guys, and the easiest way to do that consistently is by dating guys. At least, this is how I remember thinking about it. I did date one guy who wouldn't traditionally be my type, but we hit it off personality wise and it was fun to hang out with him for the like two weeks that we did (he scared me off making things sound more serious than they should have after two weeks at the age of 20). Even now I'm just so unsure. And I guess with all of the apps and stuff, it all still feels like mostly sex based. The one guy I actually ever fell for, the aforementioned 19 year old (there's nothing between us anymore besides platonic friendship), it was weird for me. We met in real life at the gym. It started out as strictly physical, though I got to know him and then once we were having sex we were also hanging out as friends and before long he was basically my best friend AND we were sleeping together and...yeah. It all was just like whoa, I want to date him. Didn't work out, but now I just think maybe it was him. Maybe I'm pan? I don't even care about the labels per se, but when I'm trying to decide if I can just be monogamous with my ex-female fiancee (and I know most of you will think getting back with her is a mistake, but I'm not going to lie and say that's not where my head is at a little at least), this all definitely becomes a big part of the equation. If I am bi, and if my interest in guys is just sexual, then I should be able to decide that I can be monogamous with a woman who I love and want to be with. But if I'm gay, well then that makes less sense. But if I still find myself mostly just interested in guys physically and not romantically, then what am I deciding? That sex with guys is more worth it than love with a woman? Am I dooming myself to be single forever if I never find that connection with a man? When I'm not even sure I want to find it. I just don't know.
COS I've said this before. I am the 55 year old version of you except I don't get it as often! At this point in my life, I will not give up my wife and I will not give up the intimacy with men. Thankfully, my wife understands. But, if she asked me to be monogamous, I am not sure what I would do. Probably, be monogamous and be unhappy about it, unfulfilled and frustrated. I no longer accept that I can be happy with sex with men OR sex with my wife. Could I love a man like I love a woman. I don't know. I think so, but I certainly am more emotionally attracted to the typical woman. This may just be the influence of society though. But, I cannot deny that it is a part of me. I certainly doubt I could ever love someone as much as I do my wife. I know you want to get back with your fiancé. This could work with some bisexuals. But, I sense that you need sex with men. I get this now. I recall when I first read your posts that my feeling was that you needed to make a choice. But, I now understand that this may not be possible for you. Can you want one thing from men and another from women in general? I am not sure that it works that way. But, what you may be finding is that what you get from the women you have known is something you haven't from the men. This could simply be luck, or a combination of attraction and emotional chemistry and they don't align in the same person. It could simply be a numbers game. It is easier to find love in an opposite sex partner because there are more choices? I don't know either.
Hi COS, If you are sexually attracted to guys (regardless of whether you identify as gay or bi), then you have the potential to be romantically attracted to guys since one's sexual orientation governs both. We know that guys who are still accepting their sexuality or have recently come out aren't comfortable enough to allow themselves to feel romantic attraction but eventually they do as they get more comfortable with their sexuality. Given that you've been having sex with guys for some time, a good question to ask yourself is why haven't you fallen for more than 1 guy? Is there some lingering internalized homophobia that's holding you back? Perhaps you need to figure out your type, which might be very different from the guys you have sex with? I don't have the answer; however, I know that you since you are physically attracted to guys, you will fall hard when the right guy comes along.
Then there are people like me, simply put, I like a hot body of any gender but, the body isn't the person and, I love the person regardless of the body. I can be sexually attracted to a man, woman, queer or trans but, that doesn't mean I love them. I can also love any of us, but I don't have to be sexually attracted to them to love them. Sex CAN be making love, but it usually isn't, it's just having sex for me. it took me a long time to figure that all out about myself but, I've learned that I'm not alone. I've loved all genders and, have been a sexual partner for all of them - yes even with a female body, I have had gay male partners. I know that might surprise some of you but, I'm sure most of you get it, especially if I'm doing drag (as a drag king) that evening.
I think your trying to convince yourself that you have separated the two and your still dealing with internalized homophobia.
COS I hope you don't mind if I respond to OTH here. I know you do like to engage in theoretical conversations about sexuality. Apologies if I am crossing the line. OTH. COS has had two relationships with women that he found sexually and emotionally satisfying with the exception that he ALSO desired gay sex during the same time. And, he seems quite willing to admit he has had romantic attraction to other men. He left his last relationship and began to try and explore the depths of his gay sexuality. As a bisexual, I can relate to the different sorts of attractions I have for men and women (romantic and sexual). I know they are both there in each, however it is easier, more accessible, for me to express parts of this with men and parts of this with women. I would never conclude that I could not love a man as deeply as a woman. In my case, I am sexually attracted to masculine men and I am masculine. I like the intimacy to be... ahem... a little rough. I also am sexually attracted to feminine, yet strong, women and I like that intimacy to be tender. As a life partner, it is more satisfying for me to consider the long term relationship with a woman since the men I find attractive would be too hard to live with. Too much energy. But, I am finding this energy intoxicating also. Can't I have both? Is this internalized homophobia? Or, is this just sexual preferences that are a part of bisexual orientation? Again, I don't know. But, I hesitate to classify it.
No homophobia here, more like homo love and heterophobia. Not quite but the majority of the good people I know happen to be LGBTQ and, the majority of the jerks I know are hetero. Just experience and age has taught me HOW to separate the two, or join them if my heart is in it. I can make love or, have sex for the sheer physical pleasure of it either one.
Nick, Sexual orientation is based on attraction and not behavior. Many of the heterosexually married men on this site had 1 or more sexually and emotionally satisfying relationships until we came out as gay (based on our primary attraction to men) and had amazing sexual and emotional relationships with men. The fact that COS had such a relationship with women in the past is a red herring. What matters now is that COS has posted that he's attracted primarily to men sexually, which leads me to believe that he's gay rather than bi. COS, The apps are very sex focused, although they can be used to meet and chat with friends. Maybe this is the problem? Maybe you are trying to meet potential BFs in the wrong places? While it's possible to meet guys to date on the hookup apps, you may also want to try the dating sites as well as meeting guys through friends and meetups.
I know his background, I have followed his threads from the beginning. And he and I have had numerous dialogue separately outside the threads. And given the lack of clarity he still has, being challenged with the question is important. Also, just because I am suggesting this for his situation does not mean others are in similar circumstances. As you are articulating, your case is unique to you and your progressing on your journey as you are comfortable. And I absolutely agree with you, there is no reason you can not have both, if that is what your comfortable with. The objective, is for each of us to reach a level of comfort with ourselves. COS is still working through that. ---------- Post added 25th Oct 2016 at 03:17 PM ---------- Spot on!
Nick, Honestly, I really do feel like I can relate to you when you post. I don't know if that is somewhat a desire to be in your shoes at this point (openly engaging in your gay side while still having the loving relationship with your wife, which I know it took many many years to get to this place for you). I think part of my overall questioning right now is because I've also been feeling unsatisfied with my male sexual encounters lately, whereas the sex I've been having with my ex has been the best we've ever had. Plus there's a part of me, and this is probably just from loneliness and a little depression, that is more interested in having somebody to cuddle with right now than I am in sex. And since I still see guys as sex first, it makes finding any connection really tough. ---------- Post added 25th Oct 2016 at 06:51 AM ---------- See, I don't question that I could fall hard for the right guy. I mean, I did. I fell extremely hard for my friend. I'm still getting past that in a lot of ways. I do wonder why he was the only guy in my life who I've fallen for. I've had plenty of hookups and male friends over my 33 years and its never happened. There was one guy in college who turned out to be straight, and as much as I had a crush on him, I moved on fairly quickly. It's not like he and I were good friends or anything. I guess the thing to me is questioning that I must go forth and search for or wait for the right guy(s) to come along when I have those romantic, loving feelings with somebody already. Just somebody who happens to not be a man. ---------- Post added 25th Oct 2016 at 07:01 AM ---------- I always appreciate being challenged by you, OTH. Like you said above, we've talked for awhile now both on here and off, and I've really appreciated that. Actually its been too long since we chatted off EC! Haha. Anyway, I'm not sure that I buy that I'm trying to convince myself of this separation in my head. I think the actual separating is very real. Its more that I have no idea why I do it or how to undo the segregation. I will buy that part of me is trying to convince myself that I could be monogamous with a woman through this questioning. But then part of me feels like I'm just trying to convince myself that I'm gay when I go down that line of thinking. See, that might sound weird, and I almost wrote a different post about it, but I'll throw it out here now... Sometimes, I think I'm just trying to be gay when really I'm more bi. I've wondered this my whole adult life, honestly. I do feel like life would be easier if I were just gay. There's no potential for me to be just straight, I've never questioned that. But could I be just gay? Heck my whole rant a few weeks ago was about wishing that I had just declared I was gay at like 15/16 years old and stuck with it for life. Sometimes I think I depend on my sexuality as a large part of my identity, and that again becomes easier if I'm gay. Being truly bisexual is really tough, and the amount of biphobia out there is incredible from both sides. In college, at a time when I was identifying 100% as gay, I had an acting professor tell me that he thought I "wasn't as gay as I put forward." That always stuck with me. He clearly saw something there that I wasn't. Maybe I was putting on a gay front? It gave me an identity, especially at a school where there were barely any openly gay students. If I were to get back together with my ex, even in a monogamous relationship, I do think being open about my sexuality would be important. Whether that means identifying as bi or queer, whatever.
See, this is what I mean by feeling like I can relate to you Nick. I am the same way! I have always been much more attracted to masculine men than other guys. And I'm pretty masculine myself (remember the whole boxing thing? Haha). But we may differ on women. It's funny because just the other day I was talking to my therapist about the two women I've ended up with. Both strike me as not the most feminine. My ex who I dated when I was 21-28 most assumed was a lesbian. She was butch in a lot of ways, but also had a definite soft, feminine side to her that I think I saw more than anybody else. My recent ex is very feminine - she's the girl that loves to go for spa days and watch Sex and the City and buys pocket books that cost more than what I make in a month. But then there's the side of her that is very tough, and she works in a predominately male industry at the same level as many men, and she prides herself on not being looked at as a woman in her role. She wants to be an equal to the men. So there's a definitely masculinity to her in that regard. And since work takes up most of her life, that's a side of her I see a lot. It's an interesting balance to me. I definitely felt more masculine around my recent ex than not. With guys, I think part of my attraction to guys younger than me is because while they're masculine too, it makes me feel like the more manly one...if that makes sense. I don't know. I do struggle with this thought of being in a relationship with another masculine guy. Like, how are we not just two bros hanging out? It definitely doesn't "look" like the relationship I envision when I imagine a romantic relationship.
I want to meet guys in more organic ways, but I don't see it happening through friends, and I'm too shy to do any meetups all by myself. I've considered it though. I'd almost prefer to make friends and get to know some guys first before dating.
COS You wrote Having those feelings and making it work in the context of your full sexuality are two different things. To be harsh. You and your ex already failed at integrating your same sex needs into your relationship and it was a big reason why it failed. To go into a marriage, knowing that you cannot, will not, be able to be monogamous is a recipe for failure. Your same sex needs are a large part of who you are and you need them to be satisfied no matter how much you love your ex or how great the make up sex is. Guys like us don't just turn the desires off. There isn't a switch to throw when we think it suits us or our situations. You will need a man and you will find one. You and your ex should understand, and agree with, how you will be able to satisfy your gay needs within the marriage before you go too much farther. I also am concerned that you were so quick to consider getting back with your ex after such a short time of really trying to develop deeper emotional connections with a guy. Is there a hurry? Do you think you gave gay a chance before falling back into your comfort zone?
It sounds like you are looking for love in the wrong places. As a gay man, I compartmentalize sex and romance somewhat insofar as there are times when I just want to hookup to get off and then are times when I want to meet a man for dating. In the gay world these are very different activities (sites), and it seems to me that you really need to push yourself to start going to meetups and dating sites so that you can find love. Entering a boxing ring seems harder than talking to a stranger at a meetup. One of the scarier things I've done as a gay man is to drop my guard for the first time with another man. When I was married and in the closet, sex in retrospect was more like a hookup because I wasn't open and vulnerable because I was hiding so much about myself. I'm wondering if you also have fears about opening up and being totally vulnerable with another man that might be contributing as well? I agree with Nick that going back to your ex would be a really bad idea. It seems to me that you are looking for an easy solution rather than tackle the harder issue, that is, figuring out how to meet a BF when it appears that will bring you the most fulfillment over time.
I saw the title and identify with the compartmentalism. I however cannot say I have ever loved anyone. I've been in lust and had a f**k buddy for many years. I moarned when he found his true love and our relationship ended. But, I can't say I loved him. Now a 65, I feel I'm incapable of it. Guys turn me on and I want to have sex with them, but don't want to set up housekeeping. I think that there is an issue of bonding. Maybe binding is your issue?
I struggle with this very issue myself. In fact, I literally just finished writing a post that probably belongs right in this thread: http://emptyclosets.com/forum/lgbt-later-life/224549-still-confused.html#post3184420 Rationally, I understand that most men who are sexually attracted to other men are gay and usually come out as such after some time. That's why I left my wife -- once I realized that these sexual feelings were real, and not the product of an anxiety disorder, I knew that I'd almost certainly turn out gay. I even felt like this was the ultimate act of love towards my wife. Even though I still hadn't fully accepted my own gayness, and was sure to feel terribly lonely and lost without her, I felt that staying with her would be dishonest, and that I owed it to set her free, no matter how painful for me (and for her I suppose). But in the 2 years since we separated (we're now divorced), I've made basically no progress in opening up to relationships or even just sex with men. It's not an external problem: I live in NYC, nobody in my life would care if I was gay, and I think of myself as extremely liberal and have never had a problem with gay people or gay culture. So it's probably internalized homophobia. But it's so internalized I can't seem to even get at it -- like trying to remove a screw with the head stripped. I've been compartmentalizing so long and so hard, I don't even know how to start bringing down the wall, or bridging the gap, or whatever metaphor works best. I guess the truth is that I don't really want to. Deep down, I guess I still want this gay shit to just go away so I can keep having relationships with women -- without the anxiety and intrusive gay fantasies fucking everything up. I resent my gay feelings for screwing up my life. I hate my own homosexuality because it seems to be the root of all my pain. The last thing I want to do is invite those feelings to take over the rest of my mind/heart/personality. Sorry, I'm just venting now. But it helps to write this stuff down.
Now that I'm separated from my ex (I guess technically fiancee is the last official title she would have had within our relationship) I can totally relate to how you feel. Part of me feels like I should love her enough to let her go, but then I just feel like wait, if I love her this much, and if I just don't feel that gay, then why can't we just make it work? Like you said, I get the concept that a man who is sexually attracted to other men is gay, but I still emotionally feel like that me being sexually attracted to men doesn't make me gay. It's like, and I don't mean to liken homosexuality to a disease at all, but it's like hearing someone else has cancer versus hearing you have it. Like it's something that happens to other people, not to me. And if you are in a situation where its happened to you, it seems so hard to conceptualize as a real thing happening. ---------- Post added 2nd Nov 2016 at 06:58 AM ---------- I definitely have issues bonding with males. Always have. I'm not even sure I know the difference between being in love with someone and being in lust. Maybe the one guy I fell for, I didn't. Maybe it was lust and not love like I think. But that makes me think maybe I'll never actually be in love with a guy.
