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Men for sex, women for love?

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by nerdbrain, Nov 15, 2016.

  1. nerdbrain

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    Someone mentioned this idea in another thread, and it really stuck with me.

    As weird as it may sound, this is almost exactly how I feel. And I've heard similar sentiments in these forums; it seems like a lot of closeted guys, especially married ones, feel this way.

    They compartmentalize love and sex. I certainly have. But this makes coming out even harder.

    I truly love my ex-wife. I miss her all the time. I think about sweet things to do for her, and wish she was here when I wake up and go to sleep. I love being close to her and cuddling. Sometimes I feel like we were made for each other. But I don't especially want to fuck her (although I did when we first were together).

    On the other hand, I have this underlying urge to bottom, which requires a penis, which happens to be attached to a guy. In my fantasies, the guy is completely depersonalized -- just someone who can operate a dick. I've never had a crush on a guy. I've been on some dates and had a few hookups, but I feel detached.

    This dichotomy is the biggest obstacle to my coming out.

    I can't seem to engage with real guys. I'm not interested in it at all. When I'm horny, I wish someone would magically appear, and then instantly vanish when it's done. At the same time, I constantly long for my ex-wife's presence. When we hang out (she still visits about once a week), I can't wait till the next time.

    It's so unbelievably frustrating to care for her the way I do, but be unable to be her husband in the full sense. And also frustrating to have these gay feelings, but be unable to express them with other people.

    Can anyone relate to this? I feel so weirdly polarized.
     
  2. OnTheHighway

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    While I can not relate to what you are describing per se, I can completely see where you are coming from. I do believe you can compartmentalize love and sex, regardless of gender. Open relationships (both homosexual and heterosexual open relationships) exist for those that do so. So in the first instance, this seems reasonable (but not looking to debate whether open relationships are right or not, plenty of other threads for that).

    Now, if you have accepted the foregoing, then the next question is can someone have romantic feelings for one sex and physical desires for another sex, and I would also suggest that such a dynamic is certainly possible.

    Taken together, one would arrive at the conclusion you seem to be suggesting. Which is to have romantic feelings for the opposite sex yet physical desires for the same sex.

    The logical question is, can you find a romantic partner that would then enable you to pursue your sexual desires.

    What you are articulate does not sound crazy by any stretch of the imagination.

    When I first came out to my wife, she asked that we consider staying together. She was open to such a notion. However, for me, I was looking for both physical and romantic same sex satisfaction. Had I felt as you might be suggesting, the possibility would have certainly been there for me to do so.
     
    #2 OnTheHighway, Nov 16, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2016
  3. fulcrum

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    I cannot relate as Ive never been attracted to female and have never been married. Could it maybe be that you are uncovering more of your true self in a step by step fashion. So instead of just going cold turkey, as it were, you are maybe discovering yourself piece by piece. I dont really know what advice to give other than to not force anything. Let the feelings and discovery evolve naturally.
     
  4. caliwoman

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    Ha! I feel the same way, kinda.

    I'm female and develop very deep bonds with women, although it isn't sexual at first....but eventually, when it does go there, it is intense.
    Men, however, are for f-cking.
     
  5. greatwhale

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    "Romantic", "Sexual"...words, symbols and abstractions, but they aren't where it's at!

    Sometimes it is necessary to get away from the symbols we use to think, which is what words are, and get really quiet, to return to a state of ignorance, to treat all the thoughts coursing through our minds as just noise.

    It takes stillness to find what flows of its own accord, to see things as they happen, as they must happen, all by themselves...like breathing.

    We are endowed with the most incredible and complex organ: our minds, and if we just let our intuition guide us, then we will always make the right choice. You cannot reason yourself out of this dilemma, you just need to get rid of the noise and let things flow to their natural place.
     
  6. Garyroberts

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    This is exactly me, well kind of. I love my wife and I enjoy having sex with her and she really turns me on. I also like sexual contact with men but that's where it ends. I do not look at men and think "wow", I simply like mutual oral sex and anal sex, that's where it ends. I don't like kissing men, touching them elsewhere apart from genitals and I don't even like SEEING men kissing or holding hands.

    As long as I keep the male sex/female love thing apart, I do not class myself as gay and have no intention of coming out.
     
  7. CameOutSwinging

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    There's aspects I can very much relate to about this. Particularly with my ex-fiancee now. I'll admit, I do find myself wanting to have sex with her when we're together now. I didn't for awhile when we were in that really bad place fighting and such earlier this year. Now that we've been basically cool with each other, and relaxed, and yes having great sex, I do desire her. But I also desire that emotional connection I get with her. That's the thing. She'd never be my booty call, no girl would be. I don't hang out with her specifically to have sex. But if I'm feeling down emotionally, she's definitely right now the call that I make.

    The place where I don't relate to you is in not wanting to engage with guys. I feel weird about being in a romantic relationship with a guy for sure, but as time has gone on, I find myself less interested in guys who I know nothing about and more so in having some sort of connection with the guy. Be it just friends with benefits or perhaps opening myself up to something more. I tend to have an easy time connecting to people I think, so it isn't the hardest thing in the world for me. To be honest, I've done a lot of hooking up lately thanks to a certain app, and I find it mostly not that satisfying. And the two guys who I did particularly enjoy doing things with (including bottoming, safely, for one of them, which wasn't the plan when we talked about hooking up but felt right in the moment) I'd love to get to know better, but probably won't. One guy was definite NSA and the other, well we're now talking on a dating app (not the same one we met on to hook up, twice), so who knows.

    Nerdbrain, do you have any guy friends that you're close to in a platonic way? I've always had a hard time having male friendships to start, though I've noticed in the past few years that I've had an easier time with that. And I think that's actually helped me with the idea of dating/getting closer to guys on a romantic level. After all, a big part of a relationship is just friendship. There's a reason why your significant other tends to become your best friend.
     
  8. Nickw

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    Nerdbrain

    For me there is a distinct difference in my sexual and emotional attachments. However, I would not say it is clearly defined as women for emotional love and men for physical love. It is very individually variable.

    I hooked up with a guy and messed around. We have since become friends, text constantly, he hangs out with my wife etc. But, I am not really sexually attracted to him even though we do have a once in awhile thing...mostly for his needs. I have another friend that I have just a repeating sexual relationship with. Booty call if you will. I am not really interested in seeing him socially but we really connect sexually. Through all of this, my relationship with my wife has continued to be better and our commitment to each other stronger but our sex life is returning to less than what I would term accurate although our other intimacy remains high. Then, I have my platonic male friendships which are yet a different bond that includes no sexual attraction even though they are, generally, very attractive men.

    So, all over the map for me. Nerdbrain, again I wonder if you over think everything here. Sometimes how we feel about someone is just that...it isn't more or less and it cannot be. I also feel those attractions and desires can change throughout our lives. The sexual and emotional attraction you once felt for your wife was real. It is possible you could feel this way for another man...the right guy. Or, maybe guys you meet will fall into line with one of my categories.

    I really believe that some of us do compartmentalize our relationships. I have stopped trying to understand why I do this and have decided to just try and he honest and open on every relationship with the other person and with myself.

    I sometimes envy those that find it all in one relationship. I suppose it is less complicated. But, I am finding it may not work for all of us. Some of us have sexual and emotional needs and desires that, quite simply, cannot be satisfied with one person. The crux is when our partners need us to be completely satisfied with only them.
     
  9. DAFriend

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    Okay, first, some straight men, a lot of them in fact, enjoy anal penetration. That stimulates the prostrate and, that feels good to guys so, that alone does not mean gay or even bisexual.

    Second, what if she used a dildo or strap on on you? Could you reciprocate and make love with her?

    Might just be your kink and not indicate orientation, just what you like.
     
  10. Pathetic Coward

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    I can relate but I think we might be opposites. Like I mentioned in the other thread my issues was more with the disposable nature of sex. I held off posting because I really wanted to see what others had to say, too.

    Dumb question. When you kiss a guy how does it feel compared to your ex? I don't mean physically. Granted I'm a boring guy in that department so I've really only hooked up once, but compared to the women I HAVE known over the years -- at least one of which I cared/still care about -- it feels night and day. Yet I still fantasize about women. And to be blunt they're sometimes as abstract and disposable as the men you fantasize about.

    Personally I think society has built too much power around the word "gay," both good and ill. I mean how many people really fit the mold? And those that do don't need the mold in the first place because they're already shaped that way. I know for me labels and words have too much power. I'm not all this, or all that. And that's okay.

    Nickw mentions overthinking. I know I've done that before. I mean who doesn't desire clarity? I know I've been frustrated when the "channel" in my fantasy mind (tmi, sorry) shifts on its own.

    Have you ever found yourself "considering" a man outside of a hookup? The reason I say this is I remember being in the dentist's chair thinking about -- of all things -- the rate of depression and suicide in dentistry. Mostly if "this guy can be happy, why can't it?" I'm like, he's got a positive mindset. Responsible attitude...and a great ass. And shoulders. And eyes. Ah hell. I'm crushing on Dr Mc Straighty.

    I guess the question is have you tried giving yourself "permission" to see men as sexual beings, rather than just the relevant parts? And if not, why not? And if so, what did it mean for you? Just a thought.

    PC
     
  11. Aof

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    maybe because you still have the feeling/love for your ex wife so the new spark won't start.
     
  12. beenthrdonetht

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    I'm pretty much like you and GaryRoberts. I think it's not all that uncommon. Look at the M4M postings on a certain online bulletin-board, and you get the impression that lots of them are in similar positions. I think the term "MSM", coined by the medical community as a purely descriptive term, also covers a lot of these people. (As well no doubt as a lot of gay guys in denial.)
     
  13. BiGuy365

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    I think I naturally feel like this at times, but that is cheating on my wife. I tried acting on this once and it was disastrous. I am not acting on anything now, but sometimes get reminded of those desires. I don't know why it can excite me. Maybe because it is adventurous and different.

    however, I should focus on my wife and I get plenty of satisfaction with her. So, that is what I am doing now.
     
  14. SiennaFire

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    I'm very much on the other side where I prefer men for love rather than men for sex. Having sex with men for the sake of getting off just doesn't do it for me anymore. Of course BF sex is totally amazing (!)
     
    #14 SiennaFire, Nov 17, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
  15. nerdbrain

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    This is an interesting observation. I've always wondered about this whole down-low m4m scene. Are these all just closet cases? Or is there some kind of weird grey area where one can be happy with a woman while getting off with men from time to time?

    I don't think I could handle it due to the dishonesty, but it makes a strange sort of sense.
     
  16. SiennaFire

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    in many ways this is a dmz between the straight and gay worlds where there is no clarity on sexual orientation. this place is characterized by dishonesty and stealth - dishonesty to oneself about his sexuality and dishonesty to the spouse about what is happening on the dl by covering one's tracks. the majority of men in this scene only want to get off and avoid any sort of emotional connection such as kissing. a small minority is looking for emotional connection. in many ways this is a psychological defense mechanism driven by denial. if i'm just scratching an itch by getting off physically i can't be gay so it's ok for me to go home to my wife tonight. now if these men tried to have a more authentic experience, it just wouldn't work because they might have to admit they are a little more than bi-curious or bi-married.

    now that i'm out, i avoid this scene because the denial and dishonesty cause most hookups to fall way short of a quality authentic sexual expression. most married guys aren't very good in bed and they are looking just to get off then rush home to their wives and their heteronormative privilege. they want to have their cake and eat it too. i'm at a point where i really can't respect somebody playing this game and don't want to enable cheating because it's coming from a place of non-integrity. this is more about me than moral platitudes; i've put in the effort to get to a place of honesty and integrity and i want to move forward.
     
    #16 SiennaFire, Nov 18, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  17. Nickw

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    Nerdbrain

    You have already expressed that you found the DL scene dishonest so that would likely not work for you. It wouldn't for me either. But, there is also a middle ground where I am. I think it is possible to have a sexual relationship with another person (male or female) that does not require the depth of emotion that you feel for your ex. Of course you know this having done some experimenting with both men and women. And, quite possibly, you could find someone that you really do connect with on a sexual only basis.

    I don't know in all the conversation we have had that I ever asked if your ex-wife would be O.K. with a semi-open relationship? I know for me that once I "scratched the itch" (Siennafire's term) that it was not as urgent or compelling and I could work on my relationship with my wife.

    The risk to this is exactly what Siennafire mentioned. In my experience, married guys only looking to get off are not the best prospect. The quality of the relationship is often just not there. So, the availability of quality partners is limited. You may have experienced this already and that is part of the reason you have not been satisfied with your m2m encounters. But, that doesn't mean you couldn't find someone who would be interested in the sort of sexual only relationship you seek. Communication is key.

    An example for me (you knew this was coming). I went out last night with one of my friends, who I am occasionally intimate with, and a married gay couple. Of course my wife knows about my night with the boys. I care for this guy a lot...but not romantically. The feeling is mutual so neither one of us is using the other and the intimacy is mutually satisfying. We are just friends that express the friendship with an intimacy I can't with my straight friends. And, it is completely compatible with my marriage...my wife encourages this sort of relationship.

    To have this sort of a relationship, I think you need to be somewhat out. I don't care if I get discovered, so I don't worry about expressing my feelings for this guy in public. I think that really helps both of us feel this is an O.K., and even healthy, thing to do.
     
  18. gravechild

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    Hmm, I can't imagine separating lust from love. Technically, I can, but it isn't ideal. Being bi/pan, it would pretty much wreck havoc. Almost all of my fantasies involve a... closeness? along with physical urges.
     
  19. Chrissouth53

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    Nerdbrain, I think a lot of guys can compartmentalize love and sex. When I was younger and "straighter" I had sex with many females without the love connection. When I started sexually experimenting with guys, it was also done without a love connection.

    And I've had a few love connections that didn't result in sex.

    One word of caution... there is always a chance that the person you meet purely for sex may end up being a love connection. I know I developed what I will call a "deep affection" for one guy I was meeting and I have read on other forums where one partner in a relationship will explore same-sex intimacy only to develop more feelings than expected.
     
  20. Creativemind

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    I think this is common for gay men especially when they first come out. It happens at any age, even if you've never been married. We live in a heteronormative society that portrays that straight relationships and romance is the only "right" way. Because of that, we can only picture ourselves with the opposite sex romantically at first.

    That's why you also see a lot of gay men willing to have casual sex with men but they don't want a boyfriend. The idea of it is alien to them because of the gay stigma. Sex is discreet, but being openly affectionate with a boyfriend puts you more at risk for homophobic violence. Plus, men are raised to believe they can't be affectionate with guys, even as just friends, without stigma. So they can't imagine liking guys romantically.

    On the flip side, most gay men have deep friendships with other women. If they were married, they do love their wives because they spent all that time with her. But for the most part, these "romantic" feelings are really just deep, intimate friendship that is mistaken for more. It's likely you loved your wife but are not in love with her.