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My greatest fear...

Discussion in 'LGBT Later in Life' started by Aj462, Mar 21, 2017.

  1. Aj462

    Aj462 Guest

    I've been on EC for a short while now, and thank you to everyone who's commented in my threads thus far. I'm a married man who is definitely not straight and is trying to decide if I'm bi or gay, and to realise the implications of this on my marriage.

    I feel that I'm starting to consider myself more as gay than bi, although I'm certainly not ready to say for sure at this time. Pretty much all of my sexual fantasies are about other men, and I have a longing to be intimate with another guy. Considering a relationship with another man feels somewhat strange, but I'm not opposed to the idea. I think the weirdness comes form trying to imagine being in a relationship with anyone other than my wife.

    One thing that does keep me awake at night is the thought that if I come out as gay and separate form my wife, only to find that later in life I actually am still attracted to women in some way and that I could have stayed with her.

    I am a pretty open minded person, and so I feel that I wouldn't want to completely shut off the idea of sex with women, even though I seem to be more attracted to men at present.

    What happens if I meet another woman in a few years time, decide I'm actually bi and not gay, and then want to settle down with her? Maybe I am not gay at all and my curiosity drove me to shipwreck our marriage. My wife would be doubly devastated then. In many ways I think this would be worse than me coming out as gay and divorcing. I would have left her for nothing and ruined her life again just as she was starting to move on. I love my wife and can't stand the thought of repeatedly hurting her with my lack of certainty about my sexuality.

    I know many of you might say that there is no pressure to decide on my sexuality and to accept things as they come, but this is not feasible in my marriage. My wife knows of this same-sex attraction, and I need to be able to commit to my wife and forsake all others, or tell her that I'm gay and that I think we would be best apart. The problem is that I am not 100% sure of anything, and if later I did decide that being completely gay was a mistake, I don't think I could ever forgive myself.

    Has anyone else who came out later in life to a spouse experienced this fear? How did things go for you after coming out? Did you ever feel that you made the wrong choice and that you should have remained married or that you were still attracted to women to some extent?

    Thanks for any advice and support, this is really driving me crazy.
     
  2. Mj5963

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    Hey there believe we posted before and I. Ah remember I am married with three kids 21-26 and my wife discovered I was having sexual with guys which she now knows for several years . The infidelity and sexuality has complicated it all but she has been amazing as we go through therapy me with a LGBT therapist and is a marriage one , can't say how we will end up b cute ur fears are little similar to
    Mine and I just not at point I can come out as 100% gay not because I don't want to be but b cause I have found through this whole thing I love her even more because the way she is treating me and letting me find myself even if we end up separating and all. My sexuality is so fluid and I wish it were easier for both of us so I work hard on honest reflection and try my best to find the path forwArd that won't ever hurt her again that I promised myself . So
    My road continues so honesty and deep love help
     
  3. Nickw

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    Hey AJ

    The self doubt, I think, comes with the territory and I don't know if there is an easy answer. After I came out to my wife, as a bisexual, I had a feeling of euphoria because she was so accepting and I could have a platonic gay life within my marriage. But, one day I realized that as things were, I would never experience intimacy with another man. I decided I could do this to stay married. But, I realized that I could never be completely happy and that could destroy the marriage anyway.

    I was fearful that my wife would not be comfortable with an open marriage and I considered asking for a separation while I "explored". How was I to know how really important intimacy was with a man if I had never experienced it? What if doing this meant my marriage was over? Could I ever find another partner like her...could she find someone like me?

    In the end, we discussed what we BOTH needed in the marriage and created a situation that has worked for us so far. But, the bottom line is that the marriage is different than it was before. Better in some ways and less in others. But, we are still married and I know for sure that I couldn't have stayed married with the gay desires so strong if I couldn't do something about them.

    The cold truth...You are probably going to continue to desire intimacy with another man and if the marriage can't tolerate that then it may not last anyway. These desires get stronger for many of us as we age.

    The simple question to ask I guess (my wife asked me this). "If you never have an intimate relationship with a man would you be fulfilled?".
     
  4. OnTheHighway

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    Doubt is inherent in questioning ones own sexuality. We negotiate with ourselves until we are able to fully embrace whatever our sexuality is.

    Even after full acceptance, there will be moments of doubt. Moments of looking back and wondering if the right decision was made. That's human nature.

    Once the accepatnce is there, however, as the saying goes - there is no looking back.

    As well, its often best when questioning ones own sexuality to try and isolate the two competing but distinct issues from one another: a) what is my sexuality and b) where am I relating to my current relationship. While related, these are two distinct issues. Trying to work through both at the same time can muddle up and confuse the proper outcome for each. Do as best you can to work through each one separately.

    Once you have a clear view on each, only then should you contemplate how to manage each concurrently. Hope this makes sense?
     
    #4 OnTheHighway, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  5. SiennaFire

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    At some level most people "know" they are gay all their life in that the signals to our brain are there. Properly interpreting the signals and accepting that we are gay or bisexual is the hard part. Because of denial, people ignore the signals because they don't want to be gay. There is a negotiation process and once you accept yourself, there is no going back as OTH posted.

    Here are some clues to reflect on.

    1. Did you feel sexual attraction towards boys growing up? How was that in relation to your attraction to girls? This can be misinterpreted. I had admiration for guys in high school with girlfriends when in reality I had a crush on the guy but grew up in an era where two boys dating was not discussed or on the menu as a possibility.
    2. Do you feel attraction or longing to be with guys today? How is that in relation to your attraction to women?
    3. When you masturbate without porn, do your fantasies gravitate towards guys or gals?
    If your sexual attraction is predominantly towards other men, you are more likely closer to gay. If the attraction is more balanced, then you are bisexual. Sexuality is a continuum, so google the Kinsey scale for a more rigorous explanation.

    Many people need more confirmation to overcome their doubt (either through experiences before or during the marriage). You have 3 high-level options for dealing with the doubt.

    1. Take a leap of faith
    2. Open the marriage to explore your sexuality
    3. Explore behind your wife's back
    Options #1 and #2 are far better from an integrity point of view than option #3. Is opening the marriage an option for you? Otherwise you'll have to learn as much as you can about your sexuality and take a leap of faith.

    Given that you feel sexual attraction towards men, you are capable of romantic attraction towards men based on the clinical definition of sexual orientation. In practice many men who are early in their acceptance don't feel comfortable enough to let this romantic attraction flourish and may require some work to address the underlying shame and internalized homophobia. In time romantic feelings towards men will come.

    HTH
     
    #5 SiennaFire, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  6. Mj5963

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    Siennafire that was the best response I have read here. As one who is dealing with by this and working hard to understand it all the way you posted makes so much sense , thanks for sharing and hell you didn't cost $200 for the 50
    Minutes ha ha
     
  7. Lost4

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    Hey AJ,

    As you know, you and I are in very similar situations. The last few weeks I've been seeing a therapist and he has been helping me realise a few obvious things. As a result of social conditioning I've never considered a same sex relationship, despite always having same sex attractions. I compartmentalized sexual attraction and was programmed to ignore men romantically. Most likely as a result from a heteronormative religious upbringing. Now it's very difficult for me to understand legitimate attractions versus social constructions.

    That being said, like you I'm think I'm slowly leaning towards the gay side of the fence. I've always had same sex attractions and lately have opened myself up to fantasize about men romantically and the idea excites me. One final point my therapist did say was that whatever my sexuality is, I should involve my spouse in the decision on how the relationship proceeds.
     
    #7 Lost4, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  8. OnTheHighway

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    Just to clarify this comment, I assume when you therapist said your spouse should be involved in the decision, he was not suggesting you and your spouse should necessarily agree on what the final outcome is? Involvement is not the same a capitulate, right?

    I raise this because my ex wife wanted to stay married but allow me to satisfy my sexual needs outside the marriage. I, however, wanted to fully embrace my sexuality both physically and romantically. The couples therapist that we were seeing appreciated that we would not come to a common solution; as a result, our process to separate began shortly thereafter.
     
    #8 OnTheHighway, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  9. SiennaFire

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    Thanks MJ. I've worked through the same issues on my own journey towards authenticity, and I'm glad to share and save you time and money in the process :slight_smile:
     
    #9 SiennaFire, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  10. Lost4

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    Correct. Involvement in that we sit down and discuss our options together, that doesn't necessarily mean we have to agree. I think it's important to firgure out what I want before going into the discussion, which is the hard part. :eusa_doh:
     
  11. OnTheHighway

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    Well, it is only the part that determines how your going to live the rest of your life, not sure its supposed to be easy! It does need to be done thoughtfully.(*hug*)
     
  12. Aj462

    Aj462 Guest

    Thanks to everyone who has commented thus far. Your wisdom and support is much appreciated.

    Here's a few responses to some posters that I wanted to make:

    Hey Nick, thanks for sharing your experience.

    I guess that I am starting to face up to the fact that I will always feel like I'm missing something if I'm never with another guy. I'd always have a sense of loss and having to stifle myself when these urges came along. Before I was aware that I could be gay or bi, these urges expressed themselves in hurtful ways via some occasional texting and light experimentation with other men. Now I'm aware of this part of me, I think I would always have to keep myself in check to make sure that my desire didn't end me up here again. I'd always be scared that it would and that I'd have to work hard to not express my same-sex desire and to remain faithful to my wife (who at this stage is not up for considering any form of open marriage). Of course, relationships are about compromise and not having what you want all the time. You give up some things you like because of your love for the other.

    However, I think that living a faithful, monogamous life with my wife might still negatively affect our marriage too, as my wife would have to live with someone who at the very least has dual desires, if not a predominant need to be with another man and not her (even if I don't actually want to have this desire).

    This makes a lot of sense. Thank you.

    I find it hard to separate the two, but I suppose that I must to arrive at a conclusion.

    This is such a helpful post, SiennaFire. I'll try to address each of your points.

    First, and exactly as Lost4 helpfully mentions above, I have grown up being religiously conditioned to think that any type of sex that isn't married, straight and monogamous is a heinous sin. And sin leads to punishment and hell. I had to repent of this to maintain my relationship with god, and any other things that were deemed sinful. I certainly feel that I unconsciously ignored the signals because of this -- I couldn't be gay because I was a Christian with a very rigid view of the world.

    1. My earliest 'sexual' memory is messing about with my male friend. We were about 7 at the time and had no idea of what sex was (other than it was secret and for adults). I suggested to him that we have 'sex' and one day after school we looked at each other's naked bodies and rubbed ourselves together mimicking the groaning sounds we thought that people made when having sex.

    After this, I'm not so sure that I experienced much physical attraction to other boys, but then I don't think I did with girls either.

    In my teens I started to want to have a girlfriend, but felt a bit clueless about how to get one. I just never seemed to have anything to talk about with girls or form bonds with them. I did have a couple of crushes on girls, and went on dates with a couple.

    I remember the thought of sex with women to be arousing, but later when I considered sex with men, I thought this to be especially arousing. I remember sitting in school one day and being deflated because I couldn't have sex with another boy because of my religion.

    I had a close male friend in my teens, and another in my late teens/early twenties. I felt very drawn to these two people, and would find myself wanting to be their 'best' friend and getting a little jealous if they started hanging out with other people. The second of these two guys I was especially close to. We used to go to the gym together, run and share other geeky interests too. We'd often tell each other that we loved each other, gave hugs liberally etc. Nothing sexual or anything to indicate we weren't anything but straight friends, but I never had a more intimate, platonic relationship with a guy. I really liked having this level of closeness with another man, and I still miss this guy. He's married with kids now, and occasionally we'll still meet and catch up.

    My first serious girlfriend came along around this time, and she was the woman I ended up marrying in my early twenties. At this time, I still thought that this was the only acceptable way to have a relationship.

    2. Definitely. Initially I feel more attracted to the idea of sex with a man than having a romantic relationship with one, but on consideration I think I'd enjoy this actually. Especially if it was with the person mentioned in the earlier paragraph.

    Today, I feel that I notice women in the street more than men. On reflection, it seems that I am more drawn to the faces of pretty women, and to the bodies of hot men. That might sound wired and I'm not really sure what it means. I'm more broadly drawn to notice pretty women, but when I do see a guy that I find attractive, I find him very attractive.

    3. When I was young I felt shame whenever I masturbated. Especially if this included mental fantasy. This sort of behaviour was sinful. Thus, I can't really remember too many occasions when this happened. When it did, I sometimes thought about women, and sometimes about men.

    I no longer have shame about masturbation and fantasy, but I've noticed that my fantasies are almost exclusively male. Usually with me as the submissive partner. I have to try to think of women. It doesn't come naturally these days.

    This really helps to see my options presented like this. I don't want to take a leap of faith, but number 2 and 3 are absolutely not options I will be taking (due to my wife's boundaries and my desire not to cheat on her).

    Yeah, I feel that romantic attraction could be there for the right guy. Looking back, I think I did actually love those two guys I mentioned earlier, but we didn't know that there could be anything more to our relationships than good friends.

    Thanks again for your contribution -- really helpful.

    Hey Lost4,

    Always good to hear from you!

    You hit the nail on the head here: religious and societal conditioning is what I feel has never allowed me to even think of myself as anything other than straight. I too find it difficult to separate attraction related to my true sexual orientation and sense of self to that of what I've been brought up to accept as attractive. My church, school and workplace all were very anti-gay, using the term as an insult or curse. Add to that the fact that the only type of gay person presented in the media was a flamboyant, limp wristed, lisping stereotype who loves feminine colours and fashion. I knew that I couldn't be gay, as I had no desire to present myself like that.

    Yes, I am slowly leaning that way too. Each day now seems to push me a little further to this acceptance. I may yet swing back though, and I want to make sure that I have enough confidence in this before arriving at the destination.

    I think your therapist makes a good point (as does OnTheHighway in response), that if I do arrive at this conclusion, I should consider options with my wife, not having decided already that I want to leave and walking out. That would be even more awful for her.

    Again, thanks to everyone who has chimed in thus far.

    Please let me know if you have anything to say in response to this post, or any other advice or guidance.
     
  13. OnTheHighway

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    Let's be realistic here, this comment is a convenient way to give some rationale to an unbearable situation. Relationships are about compromise, of course. But not about fundamental compromises that goes against whom you are as a person. What to have for dinner, what gets included in a budget, what movie to see, whether to live in a house in the suburbs or a condo in town, those are the types of compromises that people make in relationships; but none of them go against whom someone at their core is as a person.

    I used this rationale myself for 20 years. And looking back, I can now say it was just that, an excuse not to live authentically as the person I am.
     
    #13 OnTheHighway, Mar 22, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2017
  14. Lost4

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    Hey AJ,

    I wanted to add, that like you I keep questioning the possibility that if I am bi and not gay, I can potentially make my relationship work with my spouse. Therefore, I need absolute certainty that I am gay prior to coming out.

    I mentioned this to my Therapist, who said this a typical thought process of someone who is very risk adverse. In his experience he thinks it's a waste of time to try and predict how a how person's sexual identity will develop after they have experiences with the same sex. He went on to say sexuality is often strongly associated, naturally with spontaneity and adventure and discovery. So I am trying to do the impossible by pin it down and predict it, rather than discovering the wild and unknown.

    Of course, this is just his opinion on the topic, it may or may not apply to everyone.
     
  15. Mj5963

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    I would add the following , everyone of us is unique, our own situations are just that our own, our own happiness is only determined by ourselves . Each of us can share our personal experin Cesar and thoughts but ultimatley you will have to decide what will make you happy. I have worked super hard with a gay affirming sexuality therapist that specializes in this area and has years of experience dealing with married men who are questioning their sexuality and he confirms to me each time we meet my situation while not uniqiue whatsoever , my feelings and happiness is solely mine . I k ow I sound all Rosen and all and trust me far from that and far from a real end reconciliation with my wife but we both are doing amazing and working hard individually and together to ensure we both find happiness together and if we can't then apart .
     
  16. SiennaFire

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    Many people learn growing up from friends, family, school, religion, or society that being gay is wrong or evil. I won't repeat the messages because of their offensive nature, but we've all heard them. Because of these messages, we feel that we do not want to be gay. Who wants to be these things? Unfortunately wanting to be gay (or not) is not a choice you have. Being gay is a personal trait like race or eye color, and it's established very early in life. Thus you cannot change this aspect of yourself. Your choice is whether or not to accept yourself for who you are. The challenge that you face is how to deal with the shame and internationalized homophobia that you learned growing up, unlearn these hateful messages, discover who you are, and learn the love the real you. This is easier said than done of course, but this is the outline of the journey ahead of you.

    As you begin to heal your shame and internalized homophobia, it becomes easier to accept yourself and you begin an upward spiral towards authenticity. For me reading The Velvet Rage again and again was very helpful in understanding and combating the shame and internalized homophobia. I also created a blog post with the things that I did to help me overcome the shame that might be helpful as well - Healing the shame of being gay.

    My suggestions on how to proceed would be the following (view this as a starting point to mitigate your greatest fear).
    1. Based on what you wrote about your attractions, it would not surprise me if you came out as gay. You need to counteract the notion that you do not want to be gay by working on the shame and internalized homophobia so that you can start to trust the inner voice of your true self. He is worthy and deserves love.
    2. My blog lists a number of things that I did to overcome the shame (most of which do not involve sex). I would start engaging with the LGBT community (meetups or support groups) as a way of counteract the homophobia you learned growing up. There are many segments of the gay community, so try to find one that you identify with. For example, there are support groups for married guys or sports leagues or outdoor (hiking, camping) groups.
    3. If #2 fails to provide the level of certainty that you need, revisit the idea of opening the marriage with your wife at some point. Keep in mind that a single sexual encounter is just a clue. Not every date or hookup leads to sparks and it took me a few rounds before getting comfortable enough to enjoy it.
    HTH,
    SF
     
    #16 SiennaFire, Mar 23, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
  17. Aj462

    Aj462 Guest

    I see your reasoning here. I guess I'm not quite confident enough to say that this is a fundamental part of me yet. If I do arrive at this stage, then I think you are correct in what you say. Thanks.

    I feel so ashamed that I couldn't have recognised these desires and understood myself before being married. I promised to love this person exclusively, and now this part if me has come to the surface and is threatening to break that promise. I feel like I'll be torn between integrity to my true desire and integrity to my word.

    This sounds like some wise counsel. I guess that in reality I am quite risk-averse when it comes to big life decisions, and always want to know everything about something before making a choice. I think I have to accept that for some things I just can't be 100% sure about it, and have to weigh up the greater evidence.

    I think I'll bring this up with my counsellor in a future session. Thanks.

    Agreed.

    I'm not looking for someone to decide for me, but to help inform me of the possibilities, options and things to consider as I assess myself and my relationship. Hearing other's stories and thought processes is very helpful for me, as I have no other input from LGBT positive sources. It helps de-stigmatise my thoughts and feelings, and helps me consider questions that I would not normally think of on my own.
     
  18. OnTheHighway

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    I am going to make a suggestion. Give yourself (and everyone else that keeps focusing on their spouses) a few days to focus solely on yourself. Think about just you. Put aside your spouses for some time - just a bit, nothing to feel guilty about. Be a bit self serving. As each of you commingle your spouses into the discussions, I really believe your making it more difficult for you to figure things out.

    Siennafire makes some really valid points in the post right above this. Read it, read it again.

    Shame!

    Internalized Homophobia!

    Everyone should be focused on these two topics. If you sort through them, and you get yourself comfortable that you have conquered them, then figuring your sexuality, whatever it is, will be so much clearer.

    I personally did the opposite, I accepted my sexuality before I conquered the shame and Internalized Homophobia, and it took me 20 years to do so as a result. If there was one think I wish I could have done differently, it would have been to do as I just suggested. I think I would have saved a lot of frustration having done so.
     
  19. Aj462

    Aj462 Guest

    Thanks again, SF.

    One thing I have done recently is meet up with another gay, married man who I was put in contact with via a mutual friend. We were able to talk about same-sex desire and marriage, and although he was older than I we both grew up in a similar religious environment that viewed homosexuality as wrong. I didn't ask him too many personal questions as this was the first time we met, but he and his wife do not have an open marriage, yet still acknowledge his same-sex desire in some way (I didn't press for details at this point).

    Personally, I feel that if I am gay, then I will probably need to separate from my wife. We don't have kids (like the guy I mention above) and are just approaching our 30s this year. So we're still relatively young.

    I found it very helpful and natural to speak with this guy, and it helped me feel less alone. My wife and I are going to meet him and his wife in the near future. I think this will help to normalise this, and hopefully provide my wife with some support too.
     
  20. Nickw

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    AJ wrote

    I can, certainly, relate to this. My wife is a very hard working professional, as am I. On top of that we have both been high level outdoor athletes (skiing, mountain biking, ice and rock climbing). When she lost interest in sex after about 15 years of marriage and I started really wanting (obsessing) over gay sex I substituted work and adventures to keep my mind off of it. It worked for a while.

    But, I injured myself and had to slow down a few years ago...I'm mid-fifties. So, our marriage started to fall apart. When I decided I needed to experience sex with men I started growing angry with my wife...blaming her that I could not have gay sex...she wasn't even aware of my sexuality...it wasn't her fault. It didn't matter. I felt like I was trapped. She suffered from my treatment of her.

    As both OTH and SF mentioned, you have to figure out what you are and what you need first. It is hard as a husband not to want to make it work with your wife of course. But, you may have to set your wife's needs for a bit and think about yourself because ultimately your wife may suffer if you are not fulfilled. It sounds like you know this.

    AJ wrote

    This was SO helpful to me. After I came out I did some platonic "dating". This was the most important thing I did to help me accept myself.

    ---------- Post added 23rd Mar 2017 at 03:02 PM ----------

    Lost4

    I waited way too long to talk to my wife. I guess I knew I was bi and wanted my marriage to last but ultimately I lost the ability to be vulnerable with my wife by not being honest. This affected our intimacy and how I reacted to our intimacy. Since coming out our intimacy has been much better and I desire men less. So, for me, keeping my same sex desires a secret made them more exciting and important because I was lacking what I needed. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

    The adventure of sex with men certainly is a lot of what stimulated me. Now that it is available...meh! Well...not completely.

    Sometimes don't you wish you could hit the pause button on your marriage and channel surf a bit?