Suicide appears to be strictly condemned by just about everyone, including the more liberal folks. However, I don't see what the problem with it is. Those who disapprove of it seem to argue against it by contending that suicide is a permanent solution to temporary problems or simply the coward's way out. They also talk about life being worth living. I personally don't follow the logic behind this reasoning because once one has died, one's conscience is presumably fully extinguished (unless there is some afterlife or something to that effect) such that all emotions and thoughts will also be extinguished, and the person who has committed suicide won't feel bad about having missed on everything s/he could have had had s/he remained alive. S/he won't change his/her mind about the suicide and begin to regret. S/he simply won't feel/do/be anything, and thus, the suicide will have been a fully neutral action. Even if s/he didn't have to commit suicide because the problems that led him/her to such a step would have resolved themselves anyway, how will that matter once the person is dead and cannot realize this? Thus, it seems to me that the logic that works with mistakes we make without dying has been extended to the concept of suicide where it doesn't really fit. If a couple is considering a divorce, arguing that that may be a permanent solution to a temporary problem actually makes sense, because after the divorce, the partners may regret the decision, may miss each other, etc. In other words, they will be aware of what they could have had. In the case of the suicide, however, as I said, there will be no awareness of anything whatsoever. Death simply abolishes the concepts of good or bad because those are simply properties of qualia that the conscience produces, don't you find? Thus, it technically wouldn't be wrong to blow up the entire Earth and kill all conscious creatures therewith, because afterwards, there won't be anyone around to feel bad about what's just happened. If no one feels bad, how can it be wrong? On that note, I find that the only problem with suicide is the effect on those that the suicide victim knew - the family may be aggrieved, the colleagues may be displeased because some project will now go to waste, etc. This is fully understandable to me. However, the rest isn't, and in cases where there is no that would suffer due to someone's suicide, I don't see why it should be judged? By the way, I don't have anything against those who do, but I'm curious as to what their reasoning is, even if it's just a matter of an artificially chosen arbitrary value/belief. P.S. I know there are other problems with suicide that concern it's possible failure, but that is another matter - I am solely discussing the problems with successful suicide.
As you said, the biggest issue here would be the people you've left behind. I've known (not closely, but by acquaintance) a few people who had someone very close to them in their lives who committed suicide. I've also had friends who were suicidal, and experienced the hell that comes with feeling like someone's life literally is in your hands. Had that person actually gone through with it I'm not sure it's something I'd ever be able to get over. There seems to be a huge sense of failure, and of responsibility, as well as anger, in survivors of suicide victims, because they didn't see the signs, or because they did see the signs but still there was nothing that could be done. I get that when you are severely depressed you may stop caring about those around you, may not even be able to consider them, or may feel that your absence would actually be better for them. Unfortunately, I've been there, too. But the thing is, most states of depression, even very severe ones do eventually pass, and can be relieved with treatment. When people say suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, what they mean is you're taking yourself out of the world. The future that you would have had ceases to exist. And maybe when you're depressed that future seems bleak or hopeless, but that's really rarely the case if you are able to get yourself some help. All the things you would have contributed to the world, the people you'd meet, the things you'd create or contribute to, they won't ever exist, either. So maybe *you* won't be cognizant of anything when you're dead, but the world, and especially those closest to you, will feel that vacuum. There have been points in my life where I really wanted to die. I never acted on those impulses, but I have at times feared for myself because of them. But, there are other points in my life where I look back at those times and am so relieved I never followed through on those thoughts. There's so much I would have missed out on. Yes, things can be difficult at times still, and I may even get into a state like that again, but it doesn't negate all the good that can come of life, as well.
Suicide should never be a preferable option unless you are suffering from a terminal disease. People who commit suicide are probably suffering from momentary mental lapses influenced by severe depression - i.e they are not in a right state of mind and probably aren't capable of making a sound decision at that moment. Granted, they may be dead, so they won't regret doing it, but it's still a waste of a life - and you are still robbing your family and friends of a loved one. Anyone who is depressed has the capability to succeed in life - people overcome and manage their depression all the time without resorting to suicide. Even if the person has no loved ones, they still have every reason to live. Just because things appear bad at one moment in time, doesn't mean they cannot change for the better - all it requires is serious effort and determination. I was actually diagnosed with depression at 14 - I vividly remember crying to myself and wishing that I was dead, because life appeared too hard and I didn't want to bother - and it's times like now, where I feel genuinely happy with myself, and life in general, that I realise that suicide is not a preferable option - and never was. I was in a bad place then, but now I'm better - and if I had committed suicide, I wouldn't be here now, to see that things do get better. I believe every person has a reason to live, and that every life is worth living.
Hey there! Let's start off by saying that people are anti-suicide (if you want to call it that) because it really IS a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The things that are making you feel this way CAN change, and while it's true that you won't be alive to regret the decision, your loved ones will live with the anguish for the rest of their lives. I had an uncle (who I wasn't close to at all, I'd met him maybe a few times) commit suicide when I was a kid. Even though I wasn't close to him, that's my MOM'S BROTHER. There's something about that which has left an indelible mark on me. Knowing what problems he had that drove him to suicide, which I won't get into, they were most definitely of the temporary variety. I can't imagine being in the exact situation that he was, however it must have HURT LIKE HELL, and he saw suicide as the only way out. IT'S NOT. In fact, I would be willing to bet that his problems would have resolved themselves had he just lived, but he didn't give himself that chance. Instead, he took his own life, and while you're correct that his suffering as such ended, the suffering of those around him began at that moment and forever changed the course of their lives whether he knew them well or not. I hope that helps explain why I (and many others who have similar stories to share) are "anti-suicide". It changes the lives of those who knew (or were merely acquainted with) the person forever, and never in a positive way.
Speaking as someone who has lived through suicidal depression, and has actually attempted suicide, I perhaps have a rather unique understanding of the situation. When you're in that moment and you're contemplating killing yourself, you feel as if you have no other options. You feel trapped, suffocated, and paralyzed. Suicide seems like the logical solution, because it feels like the only solution. The reality is that in virtually every case it simply isn't true. There are lots of other solutions, often you just can't recognize them, or you're too afraid to embrace them because of the consequences. Mentally healthy people don't contemplate suicide. That's because being suicidal is a sign of mental illness. There may be some situations where it makes rational sense, such as you're suffering from a terminal disease and continuing on with your life will leave you in agonizing pain or cause you horrible suffering. However, that's not the type of situations we're talking about - we're talking about the vast majority of people who contemplate or attempt suicide. Once you address the mental illness aspect of things, almost always linked to severe depression, the suicidal thoughts go away. You actually get better, and you are happy that you didn't end your life. That's because you're in a more healthy state of mind and you can look back on things with hindsight to see just how bad off you were, and didn't even realize it. That's another thing that I experienced when I was suffering from suicidal depression. I didn't even realize it when it was happening. It wasn't some sudden or radical shift in my thinking. It was something that happened gradually over time as my depression grew worse and worse. Everything seemed perfectly reasonable and logical to me. I wanted out. It hurt too much to live. I felt like a rock that had been ground into dust - there was just nothing left - I felt completely destroyed and defeated. The only comparable thing I can compare it too is being suffocated - it was a type of emotional suffocation. Emotionally, once I reached the point of being suicidal, I was already dead on the inside. Any hope that I held that things would get better or change for me was extinguished and snuffed out. ...but none of this was true in reality. This was just in my head. I had other choices - I just couldn't see them, or was afraid to take them. Yes, I was more afraid to come out of the closet than die - I would have chosen death on any day of the week. I think unless you look at it through the lens of a mental illness, and needing to get help then it's difficult or impossible to understand someone who is suicidal. This is the reason when you're talking to someone who is suicidal that you want to help them realize that there ARE other viable choices out there. Allowing someone who is contemplating suicide believe that it is a rational choice, is a bit like telling someone suffering from schizophrenia that the voices that they hear are real. Just like the schizophrenic someone who is suicidal is not dealing with reality, they are dealing with their perception of reality, and in virtually every single case those are two radically different things.
I just don't understand how people can be so sure that it " will get better". There's just as high a chance it'll actually get even worse. And forcing someone to keep suffering is not really less selfish than said person forcing others to deal with them commiting suicide. And mental illness can not always be fixed as easily as some people seem to think it can. Mental illness can become chronic, can severely disable people and make it impossible for them to have a normal life. And popping a few pills or talking to a shrink rarely helps in those cases. It might help if the mental illness is less severe or caused by a temporary situation, but that's about it. Depression for example is often caused by unfavourable environmental and social circumstances, not merely by chemical imbalances that mysteriously popped up one day.And for many people changing their environment is close to impossible, due to lack of money, having responsibilities in a community, pressure from family etc. - or because of the illness itself. Take someone with severe social phobia who rarely even manages to leave the house because people are everywhere, who has tried meds, therapy, nothing helped much. That person can't move to another town, can't work, can't do anything to change their situation, because their illness makes that impossible. Telling them that it'll get better when it's highly unlikely, since their anxiety will probably never go away and they might never be able to have a normal life, is just...lying to them. Suicide should be an option imho. People should have the freedom to decide whether or not they want to continue suffering and society shouldn't be able to tell them that they can't do it because it considers them "unfit" to decide for themselves, simply because society cannot understand their decision. I further agree with the OP that people who successfully commit suicide will most likely never be able to regret their decision or to feel like they missed out, simply because they wont be able to think nor feel a thing anymore.
Thank you for the interesting and thorough replies. I also see that the topic has now extended to potential reasons for wishing to commit suicide as well as the associated emotions. Anyway, all in all, it seems that so far, we agree that the anguish that is inflicted upon those who knew the suicide victim is one of the greatest arguments against suicide. In the meantime, I don't really agree with some of the remaining arguments that have been presented. For example, I don't agree that a person always has "everything to live for", regardless of the circumstances - that's a subjective matter and many people may not find that so. I particularly disagree with this; I don't think that suicide necessarily correlates with mental illnesses - I believe that it can be a perfectly rational choice. It may be the product of delusion due to depression, but it can be a carefully and level-headedly reached decision as well, even at a point where one is more or less content with life. An example scenario would be where one has come to the conclusion that life has no purpose/value, from a philosophical point of view, and that it would be therefore quite all right to die, even if one isn't particularly suffering. One may even be happy, but one may be aware that it really won't matter if one was happy or sad once one has died, and thus commit suicide nonetheless. Happiness in itself doesn't have an inherent value after all - it just has an absolute positive quality, which is dependent on cognizance, and thus eliminated upon the termination of mental processes that death presents. This is my personal view on the matter, as a moral nihilist/relativist. Anyway, I wouldn't call such views insane, but merely unusual. All in all, I don't think I agree with the way certain conditions and behaviours have been termed mental illnesses or disorders - a lot of the classification seems to have been largely based on what's typical and what's atypical. It seems to be a matter of convention. I don't agree with this either - I don't think that suicide and schizophrenia are comparable in this way. Voices in schizophrenia are sensory perception in the absence of sensory stimuli - there is thus a physical element - whereas suicidal intentions are specific subjective opinions - this is consequently just a "matter of taste", in a way. Furthermore, I don't believe in a strict reality - I think that the only thing that exists is people's perceptions thereof (although I haven't really worked this all out yet). Thus, I don't think that a suicidal person's view could be unreal - they may be missing some things and leaving other things out of consideration, but that's another matter. If, however, they have indeed taken all things into consideration and concluded that life isn't worth it, that's fine (well, apart from the other factors, such as the suffering of the family) - they have simply relied on their belief system and their emotions, which so happen to differ from those of someone who would condemn suicide. I agree. I also agree with this. Again, I agree - I find it really upsetting how society forces those who have expressed suicidal thoughts into mental hospitals and the like. In my school, the psychologist told me that in case someone even mentions suicide, alarm is raised, parents are called, interviews are arranged, etc. - I found this very importunate and dictatorial. If someone wants to commit suicide, I believe that should be their business. I also believe that one's life is in one's own control, rather than society's.
We can't be sure that it will get better - but there are countless people - including on this site - who can attest that, for many people, it does get better. Many of us have been in a position of wanting to commit suicide - and I'm sure most of us who have been in that situation can say confirm that not committing suicide was the right thing to do - because our situation has improved considerably. Depression may never disappear completely, but it can be managed effectively. If a person is doomed to a life of unrelenting depression and misery, then maybe I can understand the desire to end it all - but there is no way of knowing that. I think the least you can do is try and improve the situation - I think people owe it to themselves, and to their loved ones. You're laying out a very specific situation which is unlikely to occur. A person who is suicidal is unlikely to take everything into consideration - it will be a rash decision, based on the mindset that they are unhappy right now, and will be unhappy forever - which may not be the case at all, and suicide will put an end to them ever knowing - a person who might have lived a happy and fulfilling life eventually will be dead. Suicide is an irreversible decision, and while they may not be alive to regret it, it's still a waste of a life. It's basically a person giving up, even if they have everything to fight for (maybe not everyone does - but most people do - even if they can't see it).
As I said in my post, there are certainly rational reasons why someone would choose suicide. I listed someone dying of a horrible disease as an example. However, there is a large difference between those things and the vast majority of people who commit suicide. The overwhelming majority of people who attempt or successfully commit suicide are undeniably suffering from mental illness. That's just a fact. When you are suffering from a severe mental illness you're incapable of making rational decisions. I would encourage you to read The Myth of Sisyphus by Albert Camus. He deals with this very issue. He believed that the most important question, upon realizing the absurdity of life, was whether or not to commit suicide. This is false if we're talking about mental illness. They are both neurological processes in the brain, neither of which accurately reflects reality. It doesn't matter how real it seems to be, when the objective facts are obvious to others. It's true that we are limited by our perceptions of reality, but that does not mean that objective reality does not exist. Take, for example, someone looking out into a field. They could see an empty field, and thus conclude based on their observation that the field is empty. However, viewed from another angle one might see the sheep hidden from their view behind a hill. By your logic the mere fact that they couldn't see the sheep meant that the sheep didn't exist.
I agree with most that FeketeHajnal said so far. I only judge negatively suicidal people if they have partners or children. When you get into relationship or start a family, you take some responsibilities you cannot simply withdraw from just like that. Getting in a relationship to me is like admitting that your life doesn't belong only to you anymore and it's not up to you to decide on such serious matter as suicide on your own. Having children is even more serious obligation and you have to be there for them always in case they needed you. You cannot risk scaring those you volunteered to care about before. For other, less serious (acquiantances) or involunteer (family) relationships I usually have problems with that argument as it seems to objectify suicide victims and reduce them only to their role in society. I mean, seriously, why am considered I selfish for wanting to do something with my own life but people who want to prolong my suffering just for their own comfort aren't considered selfish. I find it both equally egoistical, but for any other matter we would rather assume that the people who want a suffering person to maintain a status quo for their own comfort have no right to impose their will on the suffering one who wants to make unpopular decision about his/her own life to feel better. What is it, from rational point of view, about suicide that we weigh it so differently? What if someone gotten me into depression first or didn't care much what was going on with me and yet demands me to stay on this world in order to have clear consience only? I've been suicidal and I noticed that most of the people that whine about suicidal people being selfish care for nothing besides their judgement. When my depression has worsened, what I was mostly getting from people around me was withdraval/dissappointment because I wasn't as fun, responsive and supportive as before and people stopped to care once it started to be difficult. The only two people that have been there for me all the time was the ones that fully supported the right to suicide. I think that if we want someone not to kill themself we should try to help them with their problems instead of primitively trying to keep them alive by playing on their guilt. Sadly, I noticed everybody has an opinion of suicide but not many are willing to actually invest in depressed one, it's very difficult to stay with someone with mental issues while its very easy to judge. If someone did nothing to help me with my pain why should I consider his pain an important factor when making decison about MY life? And what if we tried to help someone and found ourselves hopeless? Most of you talk like mental illness was something that's always easy to overcome but it's not always the case. My best friend is on treatment for depression for like nine years now and nothing really works for her, in spite of trying talking to several specialists, taking several medications, etc. She grew up with a schizophrenic mom and abusive, alcoholic grandmother. I think she'd be better if she had a way to get out of the grandmother but the depressive episodes she has regularly succesively interrupt any studies/work she tries to do. So it's like a vicious circle. I always try to help her see other possible solutions when she's down but honestly, if suicide was something she truly wanted and I said to her that she'd be wrong for doing it because it makes ME sad I wouldn't be able to look at myself the mirror anymore, it sounds so selfish. If I am hopeless to someone's pain, how can I be sure that it will get better for them eventually? (Being sure that it will could be a rational reason to try to stop somebody from doing it, but we obviously cannot have this certainty unless we are fortune tellers xD) I really haven't encounter any rational proof of the fact that life is in some universal way better than death. Let's start from the fact that 'better' and 'worse' are very subjective terms that might be understood very differently by different people; there's no objective scale on which those could be measured. For someone who highly values sentience life might be better, but for someone defines good as lack of suffering death may seem better. If there was any objective way of measuring what is absolutely 'good' 'or 'evil' there wouldn't be place for many religions/philosophies/worldviews in the world - there would be just this one that was proven by the facts. But we haven't found the way to establish the absolute values yet and most probably we never will, therefore 'better' and 'worse' remain as a subjective terms, up to decide for everyone individually. Putting this aside, we cannot even compare life and death properly, because being alive we don't know truly what it means to be dead - we may have some assumptions and expectations but that would be about it, we don't know how it feels (if it feels at all) to be dead until we are dead and once we are dead we have no ability to communicate with the world of living. Again, if there was really a way to establish what happens to a sentience of a person when a person dies there wouldn't be so many beliefs on afterlife. Intuition tells most of us to be scared of death but humans are often instinctively scared of everything unknown, sometimes irrationally. Not knowing death we cannot judge it rationally, and we also cannot judge objectively life, seeing that reality of being alive it's the only reality we get to know and we don't have any reference system. I don't honour the sanctity of life, but I value free will very highly (probably it's the highest value for me so I can say that I believe in the sanctity of free will). Forcing your will onto another in the matter such serious as life and death seems disgusting for me, no matter if it's killing someone who wanted to live, or forcing someone to be alive. I think that the second group has usually better intentions, still it doesn't make it right according to my moral code. Trying to talk someone out of suicide when you believe they are making this decision too soon and haven't tried other options isn't a bad idea but that's the farthest the respectful person will go, imho. I have one argument against suicide that I find strong: death is unknown, as I wrote before we can only have our assumptions about death, but I don't think anyone of us living can truly understand what death is. It's highly possible that dying is just turning into nothing, as our brain stops to function, but it haven't been, and for understandable reasons probably never will be PROVEN for a fact. I've always had this idea sticking to my head that being dead might be as well some other form of existence as far as we know it, that it might not be feeling 'neutral' and what about if it feels worse than anything we've encountered here but we cannot undo it? From a rational point of view then killing yourself would be taking an irreversible leap into complete unknown, with the potential risks outweighing potential benefits. But some people gain benefits from risking and if someone believes they have already nothing to loose, I'm not there to stop them. Nonetheless, one of the three reasons I haven't killed myself was that I was thinking that I have no tangible proof that death is really an end and that I wouldn't end up reincarnating as a force-fed animal on a factory farm for example. The other reason was an impulse that I don't want sadness to be the last thing I feel in my life, but I don't consider it a rational argument, just a feeling. The third argument against was people that actually cared about me (none of them was actually anti-suicidal when I think about it) but I realise that not everyone who kills themself has a luxuria of close people. I think suicide should be taken as a last-resort solution given the risks, irreversibility, all the heartbreaks from it and the fact that most of the people subconsciously want to live on some level even when they feel depressed and suicidal, but I cannot really blame the people who commit suicide after literally trying everything else. I wrote it as the person who had acquaintance who commited suicide, who tried to help a very depressed friend, who was suicidal themself and got over it. None of this really changed my general views on the matter.
Also (I'm sorry, I don't know how to edit message on here) @Aldrick, I find it kind illogical that you find severe physical illness a reason enough to justify suicide, but not the severe mental illness. Thankfully some situational and endogenous depression (as well as other mental illnesses) responds well to theraphy and/or meds, but in some cases depression is resistant to meds and far too severe for the patient to gain anything from talking to therapist (theraphy requires some focusing and will to get better, whike strong endogenous depression might take any motivation from the person completely). There might not be external reason to this suffering, but biochemical imbalance in the brain that doesn't respond to meds is a objective problem and the suffering is real. Let's assume person X has depression caused mainly by endogenous factors and that it doesn't respond to meds. Person X has been in treatment for years and has tried several medications but the improvement is slight or none. Person X knows there isn't any external reason for their suffering and that they exaggarate many problems because of being ill, but this knowledge doesn't really bring any relief, as the depressive episodes keep coming back and there's nothing that can be done about it. Person X is depressed for years and doesn't see any improvement; furthermore they realise that their life will most likely be a constant struggle because there's isn't any external problem that can be worked on, it's just their brain not working right. I would see nothing irrational in wanting to end their life then as the situation is in fact analogical to wanting to end your life due to the chronic physical pain that doesn't respond to painkillers anymore or having a terminal illness. Yes, being Most of my problems were more internal than external and I always knew that the problem lies in my head, but nonetheless I still suffered and that was a fact. I don't think it makes the suffering less valid; in fact I think it's sometimes worse. When something in environment brings you down you can also try to change your environment, but when your head brings you down you cannot take off your head and take another one on your shoulders. There's no real solution of this once meds don't work. I liked having external problems, as they were giving me something to work on, some excuse to express depression, but the most depressing was being sad and angry 'for no reason'. It's not irrational noticing that it might not get better from this point since its not a concrete problem that brings you down. And yes, mental illness makes you irrational but severe chronic pain can do the same for you. I don't think neither of them take your mind completely.
You're right that mental suffering is just as valid as physical suffering, and is in many cases even worse. Having lived through severe depression myself, and still carrying the scars all these years later, I know that as a fact. However, the fact of the matter is there is a big difference between someone suffering from a terminal illness and someone being mentally ill. If you are mentally ill and you're contemplating suicide, by virtue of that alone you lack the ability to make a rational decision. I say this as someone who has lived through suicidal depression, attempted suicide, and then spent YEARS working to get better. It is only after that I had gotten better, years later, that I could look back and see just how fucked up I really was. At the time, in that moment, I felt completely 'normal'. It's just that my 'normal' was a completely fucked up version of 'normal'. This is a fundamental problem with being limited to seeing the world only from your own perspective. When you are limited to that perspective, and you are suffering from mental illness, you cannot trust your own judgement. It is the height of irrationality to trust your own judgement in these situations. If someone is suffering from a mental illness that is leading them to contemplate suicide, would I trust them to make a rational decision over whether they should live or die? Absolutely not. Never. It is simply an impossibility for them. It makes as much logical sense as standing on the top of a skyscraper with someone who believes that they have super powers which allows them to fly, and entertaining those thoughts with them. It is irresponsible to help them entertain those thoughts, "Yeah, I suppose it COULD be possible that you could fly. It just doesn't sound likely. Have you tried it recently?" When a responsible person should be saying, "Yeah, yeah, I believe you can fly. There is no need to prove it. Come on, let's go downstairs and get something to eat, okay?" Then, of course, you try and get them the help they need. Helping people entertain their suicidal thoughts and leading them to believe that they are rational is equally irresponsible. Especially when you, unlike them, have the benefit of perspective on their situation. When you have the ability to tell them: 'Have you tried X, Y, and Z yet?' In fact, often what you're going to hear from them is that no they haven't tried X, Y, and Z. Furthermore, they can't try X, Y, and Z because bad things will happen - like they'll lose everyone they love and care about. However, in the same breath they're telling you how they're contemplating killing themselves because they're afraid of losing everyone they love and care about. There is a reason that the logic right there is really fucked up, and it's because it ain't logical. This is one of the reasons mental health professionals exist. It's because people who are mentally ill need help, and they are there to try and provide that help and assistance. Especially when you're suffering from something like suicidal depression. Since you can't trust your own judgement, due to your own perspective being colored, it is necessary to place your trust in someone else and get the help that you need.
I suppose I understand this now - most people who commit suicide don't actually choose to do so rationally. Whereas someone like myself might, due to particular philosophical convictions, most people who choose to commit suicide are simply in a state of delusion and would themselves oppose suicide under different circumstances. I think I have been assuming too much that my personal logic applies to those as well, whereas it actually doesn't, because most people believe in the value of life, believe that death is a waste of life even though one can't realize this once one has died, etc. Thus, I think it may be reasonable to wish to help them after all, since they themselves would want it in a way. However, I think that society doesn't properly distinguish between those who wish to kill themselves due to rational reasons or merely due to momentary depressions (or even continuous depression that is clouding one's views). Society seems to neglect the difference especially in cases where both rational choice and depression are involved - they fail to see the rational component due to the emotional component. For example, someone who rationally believes that life is purposeless/worthless may consider suicide but may not actually attempt it unless s/he is provoked by some stressor. Then, society may think that he was just succumbing through the stressor due to an overwhelming frenzy of emotions, but the person might simply be thinking: "I know that life has no meaning and that I have no reason to live, so now that I am actually suffering (due to the stressor), I might as well take the opportunity to kill myself - I know that the problem will pass and that things will get better, but I don't believe in the value of that, so I'll kill myself anyway and afterwards, it really won't matter." Either way, I think that such cases are few. By the way, I'm still not quite sure about forcefully preventing people who want to commit suicide from going ahead with it - even if they're unstable, I don't know if that means that they don't have the right to decide. I don't know if I'd say that they "need" help, as Aldrick suggested. Even if their decisions are irrational, shouldn't they be their own to make nonetheless? I have doubts about this even in the case of the skyscraper. I am also perplexed by the notion that after they die, even if their actions were irrational and would have been condemned by the persons themselves under different circumstances, after the actual death, nothing will matter anymore, except the living that are left behind. Again, in regard to this, I don't know if it's excusable to control the person attempting suicide just to please oneself. By the way, through these discussions about suicide, I have realized that I have quite a few moral/philosophical dilemmas that confound me and for which I cannot propose any decisive answer. I'll give these things some more thought in the future. Then again, I sometimes really wonder if pondering over moral dilemmas is really beneficial, since there is really no "right" answer. It's just about evaluating what seems to be more "practical" or conducive to happiness, and since one can't use a quantitative measurement system, the decision is difficult to make and may often end up seeming arbitrary. Either way, I know find this entire thread mind-boggling. I would like to read this book at some point in the future - it seems relevant to my belief system. However, until then, I have read some summaries and have gotten the idea that he seems to have proposed that those who have realized the absurdity of life (like myself, apparently) have three choices - a leap of faith, suicide, or mere acceptance. I don't really understand the third choice - I don't see how the absurdity could be accepted. I think that that would also constitute a leap of faith in a way. In my case, I have decided that despite the apparent absurdity of life, I would pursue happiness, simply because it has an absolute positive value that is undeniably felt, regardless of the fact that happiness isn't "right" or "valuable". That's kind of a leap of faith too, I believe - having happiness guide you in life, while you know you don't really have to and could still kill yourself. Either way, as I said before, very few people seem to believe that life is absurd in such a way, and thus, this logic in the context of suicide doesn't seem to apply to them. I'm not really sure I follow you here. Why doesn't depression reflect reality? Why is it a fact that it's a mental disorder? Also, everything we feel/think/do is a neurological process, so what's so special about depression? Because I don't really believe in "normal" (so I don't really understand what you mean when you say that your "normal" was very "fucked up" - I would imagine that both your present and your previous mindsets were rather equivalent) and I can't really understand "rational" vs. "irrational" - both somehow seem to be defined by artificial boundaries - I am confused by these arguments. I see what you mean - I don't think that the sheep don't exist in the presented case. However, I still feel that this scenario isn't parallel to the one of committing suicide, because the sheep scenario seems to be about sensory perception (physical) whereas the depression scenario seems to be about opinions and feelings (subjective and non-definite). Like I said, depression could also lead to oversights of certain facts, which basically boils down to sensory perception again, but that is a different matter. However, as I now concluded, it simply turns out that many people do make many oversights of this kind. Then again, I wonder if they're really oversights. Just because they would feel differently under different circumstances, should that mean that their current sentiments/thoughts are not fully valid? If you fall out of love with someone, it doesn't mean that your love to begin with wasn't real. Therefore, if you have suicidal thoughts at some point, even if they be caused by a change in the perception of reality, I think that they would still be valid to an extent - they're just different from the past and (hypothetically) future ones. Anyway, like I said, I am confused as to this - I haven't worked it all out yet. By the way, I am sorry if I am appearing ignorant, stubborn, or dim-witted. By the way, the analyst, I also agree with what you've been saying, including the new point you've brought up, i.e. the fact that we can't know what death brings with certainty. However, I don't think that we will be as uncertain as to this in the future - I think that if the "hard problem of psychology" is solved, i.e. the nature of consciousness and it's biological basis are determined, it will probably be possible to conclude without particular doubt that once one dies, consciousness is simply extinguished - if it has a biological mechanism as its base and all biological mechanisms break down once death has set it, this is how it should go. I think that the problem with curiosity about death is that people seem to consider the possibility of the mind being in fact separate from the body. I realize that even if the mind is another biological entity (although I have no idea how that may actually be so), many other questions are raised, about things we simply haven't had indication of yet, such as parallel worlds and whatnot, but I think that doubts in regard to these will be lesser if consciousness and thought are biologically explained. P.S. I'm sorry that this thread has now become so messy - it might as well be split into several new ones.
FeketeHajnal789 - I understand your philosophical thinking, as I was also confronted with similar thinking when I became an atheist. I was raised as a fundamentalist Christian, and after I lost my faith and became an atheist it caused me to ask questions that were difficult to answer. The most obvious problems that immediately arise are: 1. As you look at the universe as a whole, you realize it's amorality and gross indifference to human suffering. The universe as a whole does not care about you, and your life in the grand scheme of things is irrelevant. In fact, all life on the planet could be wiped out, and the universe would continue with it's amoral indifference as if nothing significant had ever happened. 2. As a result of the amorality of the universe as a whole, and in the absence of some structural enforcement (whether innately natural or supernatural) 'good' and 'evil' as we define them does not exist. Though we may perceive actions as good or evil, from the perspective of the universe as a whole, these actions are irrelevant. 3. As a consequence of there being no afterlife and having a finite lifespan, we are forced to face our own irrelevance. It becomes irrational to spend your entire life working at a job you hate all in the hope of gaining more and more wealth, when you know that you will die and lose it all in the end. It's like a hamster running in it's little spinning wheel, and expecting to actually go somewhere. 4. As a consequence of all the above, you arrive at the point of Albert Camus, where you must ask the philosophical question: In the face of this absurdity is suicide a rational choice? The absurdity arises from the disconnect between what we feel and want (meaning, purpose, value) which is in opposition to the reality we know we face (extreme amorality and indifference). There are essentially three options that we face, according to Camus, when we realize the absurdity. We can commit suicide, which ends the absurdity. We can retreat into faith, and attempt to deny the absurdity. Or we can choose to embrace the absurdity of life and rebel against it. He uses the Greek Myth of Sisyphus to illustrate the absurdity of life. Sisyphus, of course, was a mortal who defied the gods and had become immortal. The gods decided to punish him by forcing him to roll a large rock up the side of a mountain, and yet each time he nears the top the rock will roll back to the bottom and he'd have to start all over again. The absurdity and pointlessness of the plight of Sisyphus is clear to everyone. Yet, what people fail to realize is that it is not so different from our own lives. After all, what is worse being doomed to pointlessly roll a large rock up a hill for all eternity, or having a finite lifespan and spending the bulk of it doing the same repetitive task daily such as the job of a factory worker? The difference between Sisyphus and us is that he is forced to face the absurdity of his existence. So, Camus wonders how does Sisyphus deal with this absurdity - how does the factory worker deal with his absurdity? The answer is to understand it, accept it, and to rebel against it. Like the factory worker doing the same repetitive task day in and day out, he tries to imagine Sisyphus as being happy, in finding some joy in the absurd task placed before him. This is how Albert Camus escapes nihilism. However, I think you indirectly hit on the weakness of the position of Camus. It in some ways relies on retreating from the absurdity of the position in life, not too dissimilar from those who turn toward faith. However, as you examine the philosophy of Albert Camus in more depth, you also can be led to the weakness in the nihilist position. The problem with Absurdism and Nihilism is that they are both looking at the universe in the wrong way. They are looking outside of themselves, and are correctly observing that the universe as a whole is amoral and grossly indifferent to pretty much everything. The primary difference between the Absurdist and the Nihilist is that one rebels against it and the other embraces it. However, neither take into account the individual. It is not as if the individual is separate from the universe. It is the universe itself that gave rise to life through the process of evolution, and in a very real way we individually are part of the universe looking back at itself and wondering about it's mysteries. While the universe as a whole lacks values, a correct observation, we as individuals do not. As we are part of the universe and hold values, it is incorrect to say that the universe as a whole lacks values. It simply lacks an overall set of values - this means that there is no overall thing such as 'good' or 'evil' - but it does not mean that individuals cannot find meaning and purpose within themselves for their own lives. This also easily explains the great deal of variance in morality we see in humans. It is effectively moral relativism. This is a powerful understanding, because the absurd offers unimaginable freedom of thought and being. You effectively have the ability to control and shape your own values, and when you accept and understand the absurd you can do so with greater clarity because you lack the restrictions placed upon you by more conventional thinking. The question and problem of suicide also fades away, because although there is no great meaning or purpose from the universe as a whole, that does not mean that value and purpose cannot be gained individually. Even if it is something as trivial as, 'I want to follow my passions and do whatever makes me happy.' Killing yourself would in effect deprive yourself of that happiness and passion, no matter that it is only temporary. It also creates a situation where you can make rational choices about suicide outside of issues surrounding mental illness. For example, you're locked in a maximum security prison for life without the possibility of parole. You spend 23 hours out of your day alone in isolation. You have no hope of ever gaining freedom. Any purpose or value you might see moving forward is non-existent. At this point, suicide becomes a rational option, whereas prior to this point it was not a rational option. All "moral values" become subject to debate and can be criticized using logic and reason. You have the ability to challenge the very notions of "good" and "evil" itself, and to even culturally redefine them with new meanings.
This is very accurate according to write ups by mental health professionals. It usually occurs during a very, very serious low in a depressive trough. For many people, "IT" gets better. For others, "IT" remains for the same. For a few, "IT" gets worse. Still, it is a permanent solution to a temporary problem, as is often cited. As for the spiritual or religious side of it, it was considered an abomination. Religions can't seem to stay consistent on anything and this subject is one of them. According to the mainstream Christian religions, suicide was viewed as an act that would take someone to permanent damnation, if you believe in that sort of thing. Now, they are more compassionate and reason that a person was out of their mind and didn't know what they were doing, so they are now given a burial with a church service. As for the people left behind, they often suffer from guilt and shame just as much as they are grieving the loss. Some people wonder, or actually know, what they did wrong and are embarrassed that this happened in their family because they think it can be a reflection on them. Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. Instead, some people understand that the person wanted out from underneath what was causing them to cave in instead of trying to guilt or shame someone. Together with the family, I personally know, or know of, about 5 suicides. One was in my high school class. I never knew the person. This person was very much in the background and, upon pulling out a yearbook, I barely remembered this individual. Nobody gave a damn that this person offed themselves because the person wasn't popular. The school and student reaction was sickening. My parents had 2 friends, among many friends, who each had a kid who committed suicide. I didn't know these kids, though they were close to me in age. The child of neighbors where everything looked great on the outside took his life. I hadn't seen this kid since he was little and then, years later, he was an adult and actually quite a bit taller than me. That was so sad. One of the stories that really bothered me was that of a friend's neighbors. They were a family headed up by a guy in a lucrative health field. One of their handful of kids committed suicide slightly before 20. My friend said the kid was widely regarded as being very good looking. Supposedly there were no signs. To distract themselves, the family took time off and went on a lavish vacation. I couldn't believe it. I guess we're all entitled to our coping mechanisms. ---------- Post added 28th Jul 2014 at 08:19 PM ---------- Yes, this is often the case. The help is there. The road out of the dark is there. Finding it or unlocking that door can be tough for some.
As someone who has attempted suicide I can attest to two things that have been said in this conversation Suicide really is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. The reasons why (and I'm not going to get into them) I attempted my suicide are long gone, they aren't even a part of my life any longer. Looking back on this I am so glad that I didn't succeed there have been so many good times from that moment until now. For most people it does get better. I don't agree that there is just as much chance that it will get worse, if you are contemplating attempting suicide you are at a very, very low point in your life. Now I won't say that it won't get worse for everyone, because that wouldn't be true. All I can say is that I have a first hand account on a nearly successful suicide attempt. I saw what it did to my parents, my brother, and my friends. I couldn't imagine if I would have succeeded. I never want to cause people that sort of pain. You could say, what about my pain? Don't I have the right to be pain free? I would agree with this, but you know what? Looking back on it now I am stronger because of what I went through. The events that led up to my suicide attempt have made me a stronger person today. You can get through it, you can beat almost anything. That being said, I will never judge anyone who attempts suicide, or succeeds at it. It is their life. I do however believe that life is worth living and will think that they made the wrong decision. (there are probably a few exceptions, as there almost always is to anything)
I respect what you have to say but I don't agree with all of it. People call this act the height of selfishness. They worry about what it does to the survivors. Most survivors move on from what I've seen. It might take time. It might take a lot of time. On the other hand, they need to empathize with the sort of pain the person who attempts or succeeds is experiencing. I agree with your notion that you will never judge someone who either attempted it or succeeded at it. Neither will I. I can't walk in that person's shoes. Neither can anyone else.
People who thin of or are successful in committing suicide do it not because he/she is selfish, but rather because of the pain. I know from experience that the pain of depression, anxiety etc is hell. Weird way to word this, but I could hear myself screaming for help inside (like I was in a black hole) and no one could hear me-it sucks. I thought of suicide when I was just a child because of all the hectic crap that I was experiencing at home. I honestly still can't remember some of my past. Some people will ask me about some things and I cannot give them an exact answer because I don't remember. I thought about it way until my teens which is when I started to become serious....so serious I had to hurry and tell my mother. I didn't want to die, I just wanted the pain to stop. My body ached. My mind wouldn't be quiet. I felt worthless like no one cared. I felt that I would be doing someone a favor if I did succeed. I never did try to because I made sure during these times I was always with someone. I also hurried and told my mother that I needed to see a counselor before I did something stupid. She listened and hurried up and scheduled me in. I think she knew I was serious because every night I would ask to speak to her and I could not stop crying. I didn't understand what was going on. I still have my struggles, but I am still seeing my counselor and taking the medication they prescribed me until I can manage on my own (hopefully). I am better now though when it comes to the bad thoughts.
Indeed - I agree with all of this and I'm relieved to discover that someone else thinks/has thought in the same way as myself. I see how the absurdity could be accepted and rebelled against, e.g. by finding joy in a pointless repetitive task (a bulk of which comprises life), or accepting individual values even though they may not be universal, but I still think this is a leap of faith. It's not a leap to religion, but nonetheless. Thus, I only see two choices, with the latter one having two categories - I find that the acceptance of absurdity is just an arbitrary choice just like the conversion to an arbitrary religion. It doesn't logically derive from the universe's absurdity and meaningless that we should turn a blind eye and seek happiness nonetheless or try to install order and method. It just happens to be something we can choose. However, since it doesn't really matter what we choose, since there is no "right" and "wrong" to begin, there is no reason why we shouldn't choose this. It may not be logical, but things don't necessarily have to be logical either - this ties in with the conflict between what people want to see in the world as opposed to what the world really entails that Camus mentions. The biggest problem is coming to terms with this discrepancy, I suppose - for me, it is somewhat difficult to follow any values or pursue any goals because I know that they don't have absolute value, as I still haven't gotten used to the fact that they don't have to have any. I am still used to thinking of the universe as a logical and rigid system. However, I think I'm working on acceptance. I am also beginning to realize even more deeply that the two choices (suicide and acceptance/leap of faith) are equivalent. It's not like suicide is the solution to the absurdity. There is in fact no solution. Thus, as you maintain, the question of suicide somewhat fades (i.e. evens out with the question of acceptance). Yes, I realize how much freedom of thought the acceptance of absurdity allows and I think that I have been perceiving it myself for quite some time. As I said, it is inconvenient to the extent that it breaks down the structure in one's life - the one one has been relying on for so long - but once this disruption is overcome, the liberation of conventions can be quite invigorating. I agree with this as well. Anyway, thank you for these philosophical expatiations - they have helped me understand myself/the world better.
So I believe there is an aspect of this that I have not seen addressed. Whether or not suicide is right or wrong, justifiable or not, is I feel completely irrelevant. I don't think there can possibly be a more personal ethical choice. It's not an issue we can solve with laws and policies, because you can't exactly punish someone for making one choice or reward them for making the other. The side of this that I have not seen addressed is simple. We're a support forum for people going through a hard time. The fact is, being gay and in the closet sucks. For some of us, it sucks enough that we contemplate killing ourselves. Maybe we don't want to be viewed as mentally ill or irrational for considering that sort of thing. Sometimes our loved ones, who we used to rely on for support, turn on us, and make us feel guilty and worthless. Sometimes we believe a lot of what we're told about us at a very deep level, and believe that we're disgusting, or that just being alive and us is somehow sinful or wrong. Simply put, being gay should not make someone want to kill themselves. That is not a problem that can be addressed, at all, if suicide is an option on the table. Whether it is right or wrong, we as a support community have a responsibility to do everything under our power to help each other out of the closet, and part of that means doing everything we can to keep each other alive until we can make it out of the closet. Discussing whether or not suicide is okay to begin with, I feel, works directly against that goal. Things simply are not going to get better for gay, bi, and trans people, if we are not working to make things better. I know it's a little controversial, but I was never one to agree with the "it gets better" campaign. I do believe it does get better for a lot of us, but it doesn't just magically happen. I do believe that people like us can make it better. Not just for ourselves, but once we are out, for other people still in. I believe that every single one of us that survives that dark part of our lives, when we are alone, and don't feel like there is any point or any way out, and feel as though we have the whole world - especially the people we thought cared about us - against us. Every time one of us, just one, survives that, I honestly believe that every last one of us is better off. Those people that survive can and do their damndest to make sure that life is better for all of us, to make sure that people do not end up in the situation they themselves were in. And when they fight, they do it without being afraid, because they have already faced the darkness and come out. That's what I want here, and what I feel every one reading this should want. We should want to create as many people like that as we can. We should want - and fight to make happen - a world where no one ever feels pressured into suicide just because they are gay to begin with. Where husbands and wives understand the immense pressure and fear that caused us to enter into straight relationships to begin with, and where queer people coming out to their husbands and wives understand how terrifying and devastating it is to suddenly lose the person you loved more than anything else in the world - but also understand that love and hard work, and never ever guilt, will make that better and give their loved ones and themselves the life they deserve. Where parents understand that kids that are queer have as much of a shot at a successful life as anyone, that there is nothing wrong with them, and that they are good parents if they support their child. The fact is, the situation that makes someone want to kill themselves to begin with, is wrong, and unfair. And should be prevented from happening and fought when it does. It's caused by people getting one kind of message. The reason why people like me are so "anti suicide" is just to balance that, pardon my bad English, bullshit out. They are only hearing one side of the story. It's up to people like me to give them the other side of the story. When you are depressed especially, you have crap colored glasses on. You just can't recognize anything good when it is happening to you. You can't think about the future in a good way. That, by itself, is why it is so important to discourage suicide.
