On becoming "less of a man"

very wise words. I started coming out the start of this year and my behaviour has not changed one bit, I have not suddenly started liking lady gaga/madonna/steps and still like all of the things I did when I was straight (if you get what I mean).

Oddly enough I have started caring a bit more about my appearance also, I've shed a bit of weight and started getting an updated wardrobe but I am not going to be getting any spray on jeans and rainbow t-shirts anytime soon. For years I have just not cared about my appearance as I knew even if a girl did like me I would not like her back and I was wedged that far in the closet the prospect of interest from a bloke was off the radar.

 

Thanks for this great post!

I feel exactly the same way, and yet I know that everything has changed on the inside.

Yes I do indeed feel more confident and I am much more honest about many things, including not being so eager to please everyone anymore.

 

Awesome, relevant, and important post -- for a lot of people!

I can definitely relate as I consider myself very much masculine, and perhaps even feminine in some ways as well. I do often get told, jokingly of course, "You're not gay! You have so much to learn" by others in the 'LGBT community.'

That is one thing I feel is a bit odd, that the word 'gay' means more than just homosexuality or an inclination for people of the same sex now. It's a whole developed culture, and in my opinion, it will serve as a sort of self-segregation factor as being gay becomes less and less of a socially awkward or taboo thing.

 

What a great post! Especially this bit:

The men here on EC who are worried that being gay or bisexual somehow lessens their masculinity will undoubtedly appreciate your thoughtful words. Who you're prone to fall in love with doesn't affect your other interests or hobbies. And of course I hope the more flamboyant guys out there learn to accept themselves as they are... no one deserves to be ridiculed for just being themselves.

As for gay women, there's a similar stereotype that you can't be girly and still be a lesbian. I call it "But I'm A Cheerleader!" syndrome. (Good movie.)

 

Terrific post. It's almost exactly what I've thought about today.

 

^^This. I don't identify as gay because it is so deeply linked with a segregated subculture with its own stereotypes and baggage. I am an ordinary guy that happens to like other guys. There is no need for a label or being part of a subculture. There is also no need to change my behavior to fit a stereotype or how a gay male should act. With that said, it is often-times difficult for masculine gay guys to find the right niche. We relate more to the average straight guy in terms of interests (except girls). An integrated society that focuses less on sexuality and more on the individual characteristics of a person is the the direction we SHOULD be going. Sadly, the whole "gay sociopolitical movement" has not embraced that idea. It seems more focused on the gay identity, gay being completely inborn (in the scientific realm), pride parades, marriage, etc. than the individual uniqueness of same-sex attracted people. And if you don't like identifying as gay or being part of the subculture, then you are said to have internalized homophobia. If you believe that sexual orientation develops from a very complex mixture of nature and nurture, and not simply 100% inborn, you'll often get shot down for having that opinion. I could go on and on.

 

@cm81990:

I feel you. However, I am largely involved in the LGBT community and activism wherever I currently find myself geographically. I don't need to act a certain way, and I still value all walks of life like you suggest. I am a firm believer (through experience) that we need to "be the change we want to see in the world," and each day I embrace who I am more and live true to myself and others, it *does* have an impact. It may not be apparent to us or be huge at once, but every action effects the future so much more than we give it credit.

Be who you are. I am not pro-gay, I am pro-diversity. I just happen to like other males as well, and this sense of equality is something I work towards, not only for myself -- but in the process, others as well. I think the future will continue to get better for everyone, whoever they are or love. The gay culture has its benefits and has been a wonderful thing for me and I've met so many wonderful people, but I think its going to simply be a lag behind sort of thing.

A lot of rights and social changes have been made in such a short time, it's going to take some time for the subculture that rightfully developed during times of people being socially ostracized for being different (in this case, LGBT) to slightly fade away when it become more and more accepted as part of the human equation, such as it always has been.

 

I needed to read this post. This has been my internal struggle. I'm always playing sports, always real competitive, play fantasy sports and watch sports all the time. This held me back from coming out to myself for a while, and the doubt still exists.

I'm afraid that its not me anymore, but my friends who will think I'm less of a man. Anyone have advice for that?

 

The fear of "what if" is pervasive, and still lingers in many small fashions within everyone, dealing with things like 'coming out' (my past) and dancing in public (my present struggle).

You *may* lose some 'friends' by coming out, but really -- were they ever people you want to surround yourself with? I can *promise* you that the majority of people, if they sincerely know you, will not mind, and many will be excited and supportive in their own way. Some of my friends joked with me about it, but that was a good sign for me, knowing that was their personality and the norm.

In my experience, being more masculine, and the identification by some with 'gay' being more feminine (true for some, not for all) -- they thought I was joking or wasn't. Not a big deal. A lot of "how do you know?" and all that jazz. Normal for people to be curious, but people joking in a fun way (not hateful) and asking questions is, to me, a *good* thing.

Good luck to you!

 

Hmm, I'll take your word for it before I find out myself. I usually think my friends will be accepting, but sometimes it helps hearing reassurance from people who have actually gone through it, so thanks for that.

The rational/irrational bit really hits home and sounds completely accurate. I do know they'll react well, yet I psych myself into feeling otherwise. But I'm preaching to the choir aren't I?

Anyway with any luck your Cards will lose to my Phillies come October (not happening).

Thanks for the great advice though, its a really helpful thread.

---------- Post added 24th Mar 2013 at 10:30 PM ----------

And thanks to you too Kenaz. My friends joke about it already, so I imagine they know or at least get that feeling from me. So that's why I'm confident about it. I just can't bring myself to come out yet. Hopefully soon.

 

ive gone back and forth in my head on this issue, was watching big daddy w adam sandler. Theres a scene where his gf asks if its weird to have a gay male couple as friends and hes like no there still the same guys they just watch a different kind of porn .....thats me im still the same guy i just watch a different kind of porn now

 

Great paragraph right there. That sums up what I'm feeling. Interesting orientation label btw...Queer Homoromantic. What does that mean haha? Damn labels. I just say guys and only guys.

 

personally i am less concerned about being less of a man, but rather being perceived as "less of a human" lol

but good post, mister!

 

Side note: if you find yourself more comfortable with a more feminine side to yourself, that's cool too! There are some gay guys who find themselves able to express any less traditionally masculine characteristics when they come out and no longer feel like they have to hide them, and that's also completely legit.

 

@cm81990:

I actually chose 'Queer' to stand outside of a set label, I am not a particular fan of them either. Basically it means "different", in this case referring to outside of traditional views of sexuality. I view sexuality and gender as something much more fluid than any concrete and solid definition can grasp.

However, I am predominately attracted to the same sex, and in that sense, predominately in a romantic fashion, with sex being a form of expression of that love. It comes a bit second to my desires.

Now, back to the topic. (!)


@Maddy:

But of course, it's fine to be whoever you are -- whether that is a "man" that embraces their "feminine characteristics." This topic certainly is helpful to those who identify as a male, are attracted to other males, and still feel a strong connection with "masculine characteristics", often going against the predominant "gay stereotype." It makes it hard for a lot of people to fully embrace it, or even worse, think that it makes them something other than homosexual because they don't fit a stereotypes mold.

 

I get what you and others are saying; that essentially gay culture will be, or ought to be, eclipsed by its own success.

I would love to see a world where I could publicity demonstrate my affection for another man in the same way that a hetero couple does so without this turning more than a few heads...Even in a city as liberal as the one I live in, that is still not the norm, except around those few gay neighbourhoods, and in the gay village, of course.

I think, as you appear to believe, it is still important to get involved in LGBT activities and to fight for certain rights that hetero couples still take for granted. Once these battles are eventually won however, how many will cling to the culture that has developed out of this persecution?

Is there no inherent value in the culture that has arisen over the years? Is there not some value in having a place, a "village" or some entity that caters to the LGBT community, and where people can be themselves with other like-minded people? If only because it is so difficult to meet other members of this community, due to the small number of people who are openly gay?

 

OP- Excellent post!

While some women might find it applies, overall, men are more subject to the problem of having to fit a certain role. Part of masculinity is defined as being not-feminine - rather than focusing on the positive traits, boys are taught that a large part of becoming a man is to make sure they do not act like girls. (I received my academic degree in this area, btw.) Things supposedly in the realm of women are on the list - caring about fashion, being the recipient in sexual intercourse, etc. It's not really the same for women, not to that extent. We get more freedom in expressing femininity and masculinity. While women have their own sort of challenges, I think men got the raw deal in this area. Men of all orientations are under incredible pressures to be a certain type of man. I greatly admire men who manage to get through all that and accept being gay.