Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin...?

I know this feeling all too well. I'm a 20 year old male, and I'm still questioning my sexuality (see here, and please provide your input if you wish: http://emptyclosets.com/forum/sexua...e-im-turned-still-need-help-soo-confused.html). One of the hardest things to deal with is the religious aspect. As a Christian, I do believe that the act of homosexuality is a sin. That being said, I'm starting to warm up to the idea of "love the sinner and hate the sin". I would never hate a gay person simply for being gay.

I still don't know how I feel about gays inheriting the Kingdom of God or not either. I do find Christians picking and choosing however. For example, in 1 Corinthians 6, the bible says that those who are "sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men" shall not inherit the Kingdom of God, yet Christians (and society) shrug off the sexually immoral (having sex before marriage), and adultery.

 

I've heard a lot of Christians say this... They tend to say that Jesus implied and/or said it though. Which is completely false. Nowhere is it said/implied to hate the sin but live the sinner. I don't think it's fair to use this as an argument, but a lot of people have been raised this way all their life and aren't going to change. As for taking Romans out of context your father is certainly taking it out of context, but he has probably been told that is the real context all his life, I doubt he will change it... He certainly should respect your views though.

---------- Post added 30th Apr 2014 at 11:28 AM ----------

Problem with this, the bible has been translated many time by many people, often some words are translated with inference to what they could mean... My bible says sodomite, which that word was not coined as meaning gay until way after the time of Jesus and after the bible was written.

---------- Post added 30th Apr 2014 at 11:32 AM ----------

Man makes mistakes and is not perfect who is to say when translating the text they could have made mistakes as to what the original texts meant? Also the original texts were written by imperfect men... Who is to say they didn't add some if their own opinions in? They might have been divinely inspired but as they were human I don't feel they couldn't have got 100% correct.

 

I think it's a very passive aggressive thing to say. In other words, "Of course I like you, despite the horrible and discusting things you do in your bedroom." How am I supposed to be OK with that?!?!?

I attended a Presbyterian Church here in the Toronto area for 10 years with my wife. I volunteered on the maintenance and finance committee, and ended up being the treasurer for 5 years. When I came out as gay, I was asked to step down from that role. Not because I was gay, but because I was accepting it and living it - i.e. I had a boyfriend and I was fine with being gay. I guess had I come out and been full of shame and regret and renounced it and committed to myself to a life of celibacy, it would have been cool?

When I asked why, I was told it was a sin. But later in the conversation, the minister admited that we're all sinners. And I suggested that therefore the next treasurer would be a sinner as well - only his sin wasn't as 'bad' as my sin? (and I disagree with the concept that me being in love with a man and being physically intimate with him is a sin at all!) He didn't really have an answer.

They had the nerve to ask me to finish doing the books for them until the end of the year (another 2 months)!!! I said , um - no, and dropped off everything at the board chair's house as soon as I could.

I'm sure your family and church friends are very nice people. But they don't get it. If I were you, I'd look for a more accepting church. Is there Metropolitan Community Church near you? Try that! There's one in Toronto, and they are a wonderful, accepting congregation.

 

What people see in the modern bible is a mistranslation.
I cannot make this statement with out confirming it from multiple sources, and I did.
First, the sin Paul refers to in romans refers to child molestation.
In 1 Corinthians, The greek word used actually refers to "perverts". Perverts of either sex or relationship.
In the old testament, A man was not to lay in a woman's bed with another man for a different reason. They believed a woman's menstraul blood was unclean, and people were to stay away from it. So, if a two men sleep on a woman's bed that has blood on it, they would be considered unclean from the menstraul blood.
Yes, you can be a Christ follower and be gay.
Exhibit A: me.

 

There are lots of things in the bible that could be and are mistranslated.
Also Exhibit B of a Gay Christian.... Me

 

I'm not Christian. I'm Jewish but equally been pestered by Christians trying to convert me or tell me I killed Jesus, or worse, trying to "sneak me into heaven". They don't know whether being Jewish is a bigger sin than being gay. Okay?

First Jesus was a Jew.

Second, Jews are also told about the Leviticus " a man shall not lie down with a woman as he does with a man"....
Someone above me mentioned about menstruation. Well, yes, it goes something like this. Many Jewish scholars and leaders also believe that it forbids male on male sex but admit that it is unclear whether or not it actually means that. But we also read about Onan in the Bible and how he spilled his seed. The Bible looks at sex for the purpose of procreation and if two men can't produce a baby then they are spilling their seed, that being with another man was like marrying a barren woman. The Bible doesn't speak about lesbians. People will often say that homo behavior in women is like those of the Canaanites and the Egyptians- promiscuous. Um. No. Straight people can also be an abomination for premarital sex, masturbation (men), and many other sins, like getting tattoos, eating non kosher food, not keeping the shabbat, wearing leather to church, mixing fabrics, shaving your beard...you get my point. Eating animals that aren't kosher is also an abominable thing to do.
In Judaism, a Jew is responsible for fulfilling religious obligations that we have free will to follow or not. Since homosexuality isn't chosen or a choice, there isn't any forbiddance. Yes you can have a negative reaction or attitude toward it, but no basis in the holy book to back up your thoughts, opinions, or sentiments. People still will try to use Sodom and gamorrha, but if you read the story closely, G-d did away with people who were not homosexuals, they were rapists and just plain immoral people we have in this day and age. Homosexuals and rapists have no correlation. I always joke around and tell people that if they keep condemning homosexuals with Sodom an Gomorrah they too will turn into salt.

 

I'm glad you had the strength to say "do you own books!" Indeed, asking you to do those books is appalling. What they probably wanted was the image of Gay Free, and with Convenience For Us.

Past MCC, a lot of churches are becoming more accepting. Many, many mainstream churches are becoming more accepting. Although these other denominations are less guaranteed--that is, you can find a very open and accepting ELCA (Lutheran) church, but the one exactly 2.5 miles down the road...not so good.

 

I wish I had one close to myself.... The nearest Open and Affirming UCC Church is 92 miles away *ugh*

 

From a non-christian...

I have never been able to see how demanding that a person lead a sexually, romantically and emotionally unfulfilling life can be considered "loving".

Denying something that is at the core of one's personalality is anything but.

 

Let's put it this way: When it was considered a sin to interracially marry, would you tell a black woman with a white man, "hate the sin, love the sinner"? Could you love them but hate their love?

In my opinion, no.

 

This makes me so angry.

I think it's absolute nonsense to say "love the sinner, hate the sin" and I flatly refuse to accept it. The Bible absolutely is not clear that homosexuality is a sin.

Conservative and evangelical Christians have built a house of cards around ten narrow passages, out of many thousands contained in scripture to justify their prejudice. All they demonstrate in their hyperbole is a weak and incredibly skewed understanding of The Bible, but that's fine for them, because it suits their prejudice to be so blinkered to the truth.

The only thing to hate is the sheer hypocrisy and narrow mindedness of these people which poisons attitudes against the entire structure of Christianity. The shame is on them!

 

It's very difficult to grow up surrounded by people like that. :::hugs::: It's even more difficult that you know them on a deeply personal level and recognize that they are good people, but even good people can have some extremely harmful, toxic beliefs. My church growing up used to bring in "ex-gays" from camps....they were that type of Christian. It was awful. I didn't admit I had any attraction to women until my twenties. I just figured that every girl felt that way about other girls. *insert eyeroll here* ALL of them repeat that same mantra: "Hate the sin, love the sinner." They would say things like, "I'm not homophobic, I have a gay friend at work." and then go on about how sorry they feel for them. It's bullshit. They were self-righteous and hateful, whether they agree with me or not. It can't be anything BUT hateful when they caused me so much turmoil that I attempted suicide. That's not love.

None of that means they are bad people, but they sure as hell aren't preaching love.

 

Here's the underlying problem inasfar as ANY religion is concerned, it is widely open to interpretation, any one in a position of religious 'authority' knows this, and their preaching, teaching and lecturing all reflect this attitude.

A similar discussion was recently posted in the link below along with my response and my opinion on that.

http://emptyclosets.com/forum/sexua...es-religious-people-hate-gay-people-much.html

---------- Post added 2nd May 2014 at 10:53 AM ----------

Also, this.
Is the Bible inspired?

---------- Post added 2nd May 2014 at 10:56 AM ----------

And this.
Why do some Bibles have a section called the Apocrypha?

In terms of Christian faith and beliefs, the Bible (in it's MANY translations, inclusions and omissions) has forever been an evolving religious book. Case in point, the apocryphal books that were at one point included in the Bible were eventually drawn out and moved around and ultimately removed altogether, as one individual decided they were unnecessary parts of the Bible.

The last paragraph of the 3rd link particularly stands out for me.

 

I started looking up some things and I found some interesting things

If You've Heard Someone Say 'Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin,' You Should Share This With Them

Why I Can't Say 'Love the Sinner/Hate the Sin' Anymore | Micah J. Murray

Five Kids Is A Lot Of Kids » 3 Reasons I Quit Loving the Sinner and Hating the Sin

 

I quoted this in another thread recently, but here it is again. A quote from Jonathan Swift who wrote the Gulliver's Travels stories.

"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another."

That is the essence of the majority of our current religious environment. That needs to change, or the hypocrisy will never end.

---------- Post added 2nd May 2014 at 01:01 PM ----------

It's breaking my heart, this notion that just came to mind that of all places I'm getting more religious/spiritual satisfaction here in an online community full of anonymous individuals who are each struggling with something life altering or earth shattering or potentially eternally damning, more here than I ever felt in my daily life or in my days spent in the church. But here exists this unquestionable love, with no demands made by anyone and given by all w/o contract or expectation of compensation.

I'm fighting back a flood of tears.

 

Sorry, I'm atheist.

 

This argument doesn't make your family bad people at all, but they do need to realize they ARE making a choice about what to take from the bible and what to leave behind. Leviticus says gay people should be stoned to death. If your family doesn't take that position literally then what is the basis for taking any of it literally? The purpose of the bible is to be a moral guide. To give light so people can find their own way.