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Is same-sex attraction natural?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by Damien, Jul 4, 2014.

  1. Damien

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    I found this in Wiki:

    So the religious folks' argument (and that of homophobes in general) that it is 'unnatural' would appear to be defeated by this. It also happens amongst birds and mammals. In other words, it happens in Nature. We are also a part of Nature. Therefore, it is not 'unnatural' to have same-sex orientation.

    I write this, because although I can now accept all of you here at ec, and the lgbt community in general, I am still having trouble accepting myself. I still have a hurdle to overcome, in the sense of really allowing myself to feel it without any sense of unease, to let go of this still subtly present taboo around it.

    Anyone else find they can accept that it's ok for others, but not themselves? Maybe I'm the only one, I can handle that, but still I would like some advice, if possible.

    Thank you.
     
  2. Fallingdown7

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    It's natural; animals engage in it. Whenever someone makes the argument that it isn't, I tell them to get off the computer since they're using an 'unnatural' device.

    You know if homosexuality was 'immoral' because It's unnatural and can't lead to children, it would be equally immoral for heterosexual couples to use condoms and birth control. After all, no animals naturally use them, and it also blocks reproduction out.
     
  3. YaraNunchuck

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    The argument from animal homosexuality is incredibly simplistic. It's unlikely, in my view, that the same sex animal behaviour observed is analogous at all to human sexual orientation - which is partly, I suspect, a product of the incredible psychological complexity of the human species. Not only that, but 'orientation' as we understand it is a concept limited to the modern West. Even in societies with prevalent same sex relations, orientation is a relatively rare phenomenon. I think Foucault's good on this.

    Moreover, 'natural' is a propagandistic concept as used here and elsewhere. What is natural? Why is natural better? All human societies exhibit incredibly diverse patterns of thought and behaviour; we have no way of knowing what is 'natural' for humans, if such a thing exists. Is monogamous hetero marriage 'natural' or an unmandated social construction?

    Edit: love your sig by the way!
     
  4. greatwhale

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    What you are struggling with is a very powerful force: the ego. Like many mental processes, the ego is something you have built yourself, it is your conception of yourself, down deep in the subconscious, that you need to contend with.

    So yes, of course, you are rationally capable of understanding that homosexuality is natural, that is not the problem. It is the psyche that has issues and it is dissonant with your same-sex desires, which are innate and cannot be constructed out of thin air, like the ego.

    The ego is a highly organized and ingrained construct. Jung would have said that in order to deal with this concept of "you", you will need to create an equally organized and self-coherent image of yourself that is more consistent with the core of your being. The self is a tricky thing; what is created and what is innate is seldom clear.

    In practical terms, what does this mean for you? For starters, you need to engage your imagination, to see yourself in the image of a man's love and embrace. You need to imagine yourself living as you were meant to be, without judgment, without any thought other than being in that kind of relationship. In a sense, from this process of imagination, you need to observe yourself and how you feel, or at least how you think it feels to be loved in that way by a man.

    The doubts seldom return when we realize how good that can be.
     
  5. stocking

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    Love this:icon_bigg
     
  6. mangotree

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    Gay Penguin story from a few years ago :slight_smile: so cute.
    Gay Penguins adopt a chick (mirror) - YouTube
    Apparently they broke up recently though :frowning2: There's plenty of other similar / more recent stories though.

    I'm sorry that you don't feel like you accept yourself.
    Looking at your previous threads, you've only started to open yourself to being same-sex attracted in the last 3 or 4 months.
    There's are a lot of things that have to happen between discovery and acceptance (different for everyone) - so be patient and give it time.

    It's normal to want to accept yourself RIGHT NOW.
    If you want to start getting glimpses of self acceptance, look at some books around the topic of 'Letting Go' (e.g. Sedona Method, F**k It etc..).

    Regarding "Natural" - there are plenty of things that aren't technically natural that we accept completely in modern times. E.g. Glasses/contacts, hearing aids, cochlear implants, prosthetic limbs, even clothes (if we were born without clothes, wouldn't it be more natural to live without clothes?).
    So the natural/unnatural argument doesn't really sit right with me personally. It's a good way to shut up the occasional bigot, but in the whole scheme of things - humans just don't live naturally at all (with the exception of Jane Goodall of course).

    Peace! (*hug*)
     
  7. Damien

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    Good one...even living in a house could be regarded as 'unnatural by that same argument.
    Considering that the world's resources can barely sustain the population growth we already have, it could even be seen as more 'moral' to not have children, than to have them, in this day and age when ecological systems are being increasingly stressed by human overconsumption. As for sex being only for having children, well we all know that your average hetero will have sex thousands of times just for pleasure, and only a few times, generally, to have a child; so that argument (often used against us) is also quite hypocritical. Thank you for sharing your insights. :slight_smile:
     
  8. BMC77

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    Oh, yes. That sounds like my experience. I've had the attitude of: "People are gay. Big deal!" for years. But, accepting myself took a lot longer.

    Not sure why it took so long in my case. One issue was that I never felt really compelled to seriously ponder the issue until I joined EC. I knew I had interest in doing sexual things with a man; however, I never really pushed past that to determine whether I could only do casual things (e.g. circle jerk), be serious (e.g. marry), and whether I had any real interest in women.

    One issue was someone I was in almost daily contact with ten years ago, and who had a strong influence on me, who was anti-gay.

    I'm not sure what advice to give. I think the process might well vary. But one helpful thing is to understand this is a journey. This is not a flip of an on/off switch.
     
  9. Damien

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    Thank you, well you have given me even more food for thought there. But for me, the fact that it also exists in Nature, does encourage me that it's ok for us humans, too. But I will reflect on your point of view also...
    :slight_smile:
     
  10. confuseduser99

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    Oh, it's completely natural. No matter how hard a gay guy tries, his sexual attraction to the same eps ex NEVER goes away. It's built into him. Trust me, I've tried to ignore it, and have tried to change it for almost 8 years. I've finally accepted who I am, and the naturalness of it all.
     
  11. Damien

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    This wasn't part of 'the plan' of my life. I always believed I would end up finding the woman of my dreams, and have had a deep-seated notion that that is how things are meant to be. And our culture, for thousands of years, has told us as much. Yes I seem to be fighting myself here, you make a valid observation. I don't get how I can be attracted to male features. I did not feel this way even last year. A part of me is revelling in this, another part is concerned, almost worried. There is a conflict in me, as yet unresolved.

    Thank you for your wise words. When you talked about being in the loving embrace of a man, I felt scared for a moment. Then, I felt emotional and some tears came to my eyes. Actually I have already fantasized many times about this over the last few months. About meeting this special guy who is effeminate, kind-hearted, we both have similar interests, and get along really well together. Well it's all been fine to fantasize about, but can I accept that this could actually happen to me?

    Normally only my counsellor is able to bring up such reactions from me. I'm now wondering if you have studied psychology or something along those lines...

    ---------- Post added 5th Jul 2014 at 12:43 PM ----------

    Thank you. I can hardly believe I have found such a supportive place. I feel quite moved by all this. :cry:

    ---------- Post added 5th Jul 2014 at 12:48 PM ----------

    That it is going to be a journey, and to be patient, is helpful advice for me. Like many of my journeys of discovery, it is turning out not to be all smooth sailing.

    ---------- Post added 5th Jul 2014 at 12:55 PM ----------

    On a lighter note, back when I was 'straight', I liked what I perceived as 'gay culture' - the way they seemed to be freer than the rest of society, the colourful marches and mardi gras parades, and so forth. I even watched 'queer as folk' and had a thing for one of the main characters (the really handsome guy who had helped a lesbian couple to have a child, can't recall his name right now). But none of this alerted me at all, and I find that a bit amusing now. :lol: By the way I know that QAF was probably not that realistic etc, just saying, I liked it...
     
  12. BMC77

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    Trust me, I also know that feeling!
     
  13. Candace

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    I believe in a God and Jesus. I remember having a music box that I must have received when I was born. You wind it up, and it plays a tune. It sings "Jesus loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so". Note how it doesn't say "as long as I'm straight, have kids, etc.". None of that. For this, I don't worry and I accept that it's natural.

    Homosexuality is documented in over eight thousand species. Homophobia is documented in one. Which one seems to be unnatural now?
     
  14. Ghost93

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    Same-sex attraction is natural. Since the beginning of time, a certain percentage of humans and animals alike have been born with same-sex attractions.

    Now is it normal? No, we make up less than 10 percent of the population. But there is nothing wrong with being different.
     
  15. Monraffe

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    If you believe that behavior is emergent then you might believe homosexuality has either an identifiable advantage to the species or the trait itself is some form of genetic stowaway (another related trait is the advantageous one and homosexuality is a tag-along). But genetics alone doesn't seem to account for orientation so it could be something less specific is going on. If environment is a significant factor in determining orientation, through imprinting or some form of early wiring process perhaps in the womb, maybe orientation isn't even a trait in the strictest sense. In either case emergent behavior should still apply which means at a minimum homosexuality is not detrimental or it is (or was) advantageous at levels we observe today. It does seem logical that reserving 10% or so of a tribe's youth for use in non-reproductive tasks could be generally advantageous to the tribe.
     
  16. Vampire

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    I have a gay male cat who always does it with my neighbor's gay male cat. :3

    My cat is awesome.

    L.o.l.
    Andy
     
  17. Tightrope

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    Since an almost constant percentage of the human population has been same-sex attracted since the beginning of time and, if they weren't speaking coherently at the time or didn't have words for it, they still grunted, moaned, and did the deed, then it's natural.
     
  18. Wuggums47

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    And I'm sure they are all opposed to unnatural things like sunblock and air conditioning.
     
  19. An Gentleman

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    Snake venom, arsenic, mosquitos... they're all "natural" in the sense that they aren't manmade.
    I don't see anyone defending them. Besides, trying to appeal to nature is fallacious; being "natural" isn't inherently good. Being homosexual isn't normal because it isn't the norm, but that doesn't make it strange or special, either. Gay people are just that: people.
     
  20. thekillingmoon

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    I don't think it's unnatural. There is a considerable amount of gay people in the world. If it was unnatural it would be extremely rare. Now being born with 3 hands would be unnatural because that generally doesn't happen.