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So many questions, so little answers after such a long time.

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by Benway, Aug 5, 2014.

  1. Benway

    Benway Guest

    I posted here several months ago under a different username which I requested the deletion of due to my own self-loathing and disgust with myself but look-e here, I'm back. I suppose it's just part of my neurotic nature to seek help even if I know that I'm looking for answers that I'll never find. But, once again, here goes.

    Since about the age of 16 (I'm 26, now) I've been heavily questioning my sexuality. I'm a man, born a man, I've never been anything other than a man-- that's not a condemnation towards transgendered/transsexual people (I grew up in rural Pennsylvania, please forgive my lack of knowledge towards the terminology-- I see words like "cis" thrown around a lot but heavens help me I don't know what it means-- but I want to.) and I'm comfortable being a man. But as far back as the age of... I don't know, 12, maybe, it was very early in my life but ever since then I've had little bits and pieces of sexual confusion that have haunted me all my life.

    It really started in high school at about age 17 with details I'm not comfortable disclosing, but I'll tell you this: I didn't engage in any sexual activity until I was 25, masturbation aside, of course. That is to say, I was a virgin until the age of 25, last year around this time I lost it, accurately speaking-- but I'll come back to that.

    Anyway, I'm a bigger guy (around 230 pounds), I have a lot facial hair and body hair and I fit into the category of gay men I suppose they call "bears," and I've always been attracted to men who fit into that category-- again, starting at a young age, my favorite actor was Bob Hoskins (who recently passed away) but there's always been this part of me that strives to be 'normal.'

    My parents have always been pretty progressive. My Mom is a lapsed Catholic who never talks about God or religion or anything and she has a number of lesbian friends and my father is a part of one of those new age Baptist churches that openly welcomes and accepts gay people as part of their congregation citing anti-gay religious literature as "sorely outdated." Nobody in my family has a problem with gay people, and in fact they're all pretty connected to the gay community in a loosely affiliated but very friendly way.

    That is except, for me. It seems everyone around me, my friends, my family, my brother himself-- they all know I'm gay. Everyone seems to know I'm gay except for me. For some reason I can't come to accept it. I keep pushing it back, I keep suppressing my urges, which are of a strictly sexual nature, down, down, down. Last year around this time I met a girl online and I engaged in very vanilla sexual intercourse with her-- it was my first sexual experience outside masturbation and I was completely unable to achieve orgasm. I actually had to try and fake an orgasm during my first sexual experience.

    I thought by having sex with a woman the thoughts would go away, and for a little while, it did-- but it was simply because my mind was so exhausted by how disgusted I was by the whole experience. Soon the dark thoughts returned and I found myself in gay chatrooms again, watching gay pornographic videos and... well, I'm sure most of you know what I'm talking about-- the usual harmless 'after dark' activity some of us enjoy-- sexting, pic exchange, whatever.

    I have a great sense of self-image. Like, I don't want to sound vain, but I think of myself as a good looking guy and almost every guy I've ever chatted with says how cute I am. So I'm pretty well acquainted with my local gay community as well and they're pretty accepting of me. But why, why, do I hate the fact that I have these urges and furthermore why can't I just let myself act upon them? I'm 26 and I have the hormones of an 18 year old watching late night Cinemax. It doesn't make any sense. I'm rambling, I'll elaborate as needed if this thread picks up.
     
  2. Benway

    Benway Guest

    Quick addendum, just to clear things up.

    I am not religious. I enjoy religious literature of the Buddhist, Taoist and Golden Dawn varieties as I've always found them fun to read, but do I believe in any of it? No, not really. I suppose spiritually speaking I'm agnostic.

    The incidents in high school, which I know I'll be asked about that I don't want to elaborate on-- let's just say that in my senior year I encountered a very rare archetype: an openly gay bully who really made me upset with just... a lot of things.

    My parents, family, friends and my brother don't care if anyone is gay-- as I've stated they're all very progressive and whatnot and many members of our family are gay-- is it possible there's some sort of genetic thing in my blood, like, that's just how I am?

    Oh, and most importantly, I usually feel great about the idea of engaging in gay activities but then after I've masturbated I feel guilty, deeply ashamed of myself and I retreat into isolation for several hours. This of course has variables.

    Okay, I hope that clears any further muddiness up.
     
  3. Benway

    Benway Guest

    Second addendum, I figured I'd might as well clear a few more things up...

    My parents divorced when I was six, this had a profound impact on my life-- a lot more than it should have probably, considering they remained good friends for a time after until relations eventually broke down, completely. However, my father was largely absent most days of the week of my childhood and as Freud might say 'an absent father' might have something to do with it.

    Of the Jungian Archetypes, the one that fits me best is decidedly the Shadow Lover-- more accurately, the Mama's Boy, then further down that list I'm leaning towards the Addicted Lover as I've often wondered if my repressed homosexuality is some sort of addiction. I know that the biological makeup in me means that I've always been this way one way or another I just want to work through it.

    I'm on several prescription medications for anxiety and depression as well as hyperactivity and I don't do any illegal drugs. I'm a light smoker of cigarettes but pretty much only when I drink alcohol-- which is fairly rare as it often interferes with the medications I take in way that's not fun at all so I generally avoid it. In spite of all this, I still can't figure out why I'm so reluctant to do what I know I need to do.

    Someone once said I had the worst case of reaction formation they'd ever seen, regarding the way I treat my sexuality and they couldn't figure out why I'm punishing myself (their words, not mine) the way I am. But there's just not a whole lot to say, it seems everyone I tell says the same thing: Just accept yourself. I want to, I really do, but I don't, and I won't want to in the hours following masturbation.

    I can't figure it out all by myself.
     
  4. Benway

    Benway Guest

    Let me give you an example of how I feel, now-- post-masturbation.

    I never asked for this. I don't want to be gay. I do everything in my power to suppress those thoughts and sometimes it works and I'll go for months without an incident. An incident is when I start hanging out in gay chatrooms, gay apps, gay message boards-- it's not supposed to be this way. I'm a man. I don't care how progressive my family is or if society is so willing to accept me for being gay-- I don't want to be gay.

    I don't want to have any sexuality. I don't wish to feel sexual desire. There's no need for it for someone like me. All it is a nuisance. Oh, sure. My friends all said the same thing: "You need to get laid, dude." Okay, great. So I went out and did just that and it was probably the worst experience of my life. I thought it would end this seemingly endless masturbatory cycle I'm in but no, all it did was throw a wrench in the gears and make things more complicated. I don't want this. I don't want any of this. This is an asinine thing to chase.

    What makes me even more mad is that in about one hour, maybe less, I'll feel better about the whole thing-- I'll say to myself "Oh, I just need to accept my homosexual desires," but then the cycle will start all over again. Or maybe, just maybe I'll be able to keep the dark thoughts of engaging in homosexual relations down for some time, time enough to get work done, time enough to enjoy what little of a social life I have left. This is absolute insanity.

    No therapist has ever been able to give me any other advice than "Well, you need to experiment," or "You need to be able to accept yourself for who you are," BUT THAT'S NOT WHO I AM. I grew up in a time when I was told I could do anything I wanted with my life. Well I want to vanquish these gay thoughts and be done with sexuality in total forever. This is not summer camp, I'm not some horny teenager, anymore. I'm a grown man with an underused overactive libido and I'm starting to think the best way to stop this is through castration. I've thought about it, before. I'll continue to think about it.

    I hate myself, right now.
     
  5. Benway

    Benway Guest

    I suppose it is what it is. Perhaps I'm some sort of sexual anomaly. I guess that's okay.

    These days I'm largely ostracized by my local online gay community for my indecisiveness, ostracized by the frat boys, the nerds... everybody. All because of my oddball sexuality-- or rather my own twisted self-image of sexuality. Time makes one bitter. Bitterness turns to distance and isolation and I'm okay with that.

    At this point it's what it's always been: Watching myself lose my mind on the internet. So many people think I'm lying about what I say. It's often pontificated that "there's no reason behind my feelings that aren't religiously based," or "there's no reason behind my feelings that aren't because of the people you grew up with and their archaic views," though as I've said, nothing behind my feelings is based in either of those things. I come from a progressive family. My friends understand. They all understand. But I do not understand. Why am I tortured so much by something that so many are so ready to accept in others yet I cannot accept in myself?

    Circles, it's all gone in circles for so long. I regret it all and wish I could wash away the sad, regretful memories that came with it. This is not who I am. I'm just an oddity. No one believes me. Sometimes on the web I'll hear whispers from others who seem to suffer similarly but it's not long before someone cries "you're a troll!" Or "you're a shadow conservative evangelist!" I can tell when they are and when they're not. And try as I might to reach out their pleas for help are snuffed out all too quickly by a landslide of unrelated arguments.

    I cannot run from who I am, but I can run from who I am not.
     
  6. Nychthemeron

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    Have you considered the possibility that you may be a sex-repulsed homosexual?

    Yes, it's definitely, absolutely, 100% possible, similar to how it's definitely, absolutely, 100% possible for an asexual to have and enjoy sex.

    Me, I also have a libido that fluctuates from time to time, yet, sex repulses me. You can see the problem there.

    There's nothing wrong with you. Understand that. I don't think anyone asked to be gay. Me, I wish I could be cis and straight, but I can't. It just doesn't work that way. I could go to therapy and shit but all they will do is probably preach about God, which won't do anything, because I'm not Christian, or try to shame and humiliate me out of my gender and sexuality, which may lead to me doing drastic, harmful things to myself or others.

    So what I'm saying is, trying to change this will probably make you feel worse.

    I have a similar circumstance where I feel nice and fine and then feel extremely guilty, even when everyone around me accepts me. So why?

    I believe the answer is from society. Just because your family is lgbt-friendly does not mean the entire world is. Not everyone will accept you, and you will lose friends if you come out as gay. People are dying, being tortured, being hurt simply because they are gay. It's seen as a terrible thing and a sin.

    And the natural response?

    Possible guilty, anger, and sadness.

    So, I suppose you can just think about that. Hope you're doing alright.

    Also, as a side note, 'cisgender' or 'cis' means that you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth.
     
  7. Benway

    Benway Guest

    That means a lot to me. What's sad about it all is how unfair it seems for someone like me. I react to my own fantasies with anger and regret, I try to ignore it, suppress it but the more I do the more it comes back harder. I want to feel nothing and yet I feel too much. Or maybe I think too much and don't feel enough.

    Maybe it's my own discontent with the reality we live in. I look around and I see people interconnected by an invisible web of technological nightmares and I remember a time when I looked forward to such a thing and think of what a fool I was to think as such. Maybe things seemed better than they were or maybe I'm just bitter that the future in general didn't turn out the way I wanted it to.

    It's an uncertain time we live in, and sometimes I think it's the worst future we could have gotten of all.
     
  8. adrum

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    Well first, I am a few years older than you and, like yourself, have the sex-drive of a teenager... I honestly think that it's really normal for men to be this way and that we tend to hide this side of ourselves in order to conform with the expectations of society.

    Being married and from a religious context, I TOTALLY get the guilt thing... the guilt of my own feelings and actions kept me depressed for many years and I'm still trying to work my way out of that.

    Now it seems like you've tried everything to sort this out, including having sex with a woman... what you don't seem to have tried is anything with men... I guess I wonder if maybe you should just have a go... could you really end up feeling worse than you do now? I reckon you have a real chance for HAPPINESS and that is worth at least trying. You deserve to be happy and it is definitely not too late for you.

    Finally, well done in posting about this here... it's so important to talk about this with someone. Keep sharing with us!
     
  9. Benway

    Benway Guest

    Thanks, I've had a long time to think about all this.

    Like I said, as for having sex with a man, I could, I very easily could. But the idea frightens me as much as it entices me. Hell, most of the online gay hookup communities have ostracized me for constantly deleting and reposting my profiles it's gotten to the point that I'm paranoid of running into someone who I've met online at the mall or at a gas station or anywhere.

    Other parts of me think it goes back to the openly gay bully I had-- I may be thinking "Why should I stoop to his level?" (By having sex with a man.) Perhaps I'm repulsed by own attractions based on the fact that I was bullied and taunted and bothered by this horrible person who was openly gay and so out about. I don't want to talk about that, though-- that's a serious trigger for me.
     
  10. adrum

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    I understand the fear/desire combination. For me the struggle has been my marriage: how could I even consider doing anything with a man (or anyone else) as a married person? What kind of a husband am I? For more than 10 years I have been subjected to this guilt and struggle. I always thought that I would never do anything about it because my integrity was more important than my happiness.

    The thing is that this conflict inside of me only got worse and worse as the years go on. I finally decided that I needed to sort all of this out and have begun to experiment with guys. It wasn't even the desire trumping the fear--it was being sick of the extreme unhappiness in my life that prompted me to take action. My reflections so far about it:

    1. I don't feel nearly as guilty as I thought I would about cheating on my wife. I mean, I do feel guilty, but I am shocked to find that this guilt PALES in comparison to the anguish that I have been experiencing for over 10 years. I decided to sacrifice my integrity for the hope of happiness, and I think it was worth it. This might make me a horrible person... if so then I can accept that. It's time to be me and to stop trying to be perfect.

    2. I've only had a handful of NSA encounters with guys so far, and in a very short period. I have tried a number of different things. Though there is still a lot of confusion about my feelings, I can say that these encounters (though quick and "meaningless" sex) have given me a boost to my self-esteem, made me feel less hopeless, and given me a sense that I am in control of my life. I am realising for the first time in my life that I CAN have the things that I want, and that I am desirable to others. These might be short term feelings and I haven't had enough time yet to figure it all out but I feel like I am better off today than I was a month ago before this all started.

    3. I have a best mate who I talk to about all of this. He is a life-saver for me and offers me unconditional acceptance. This online community seems awesome but I also think it's important to have someone who really knows YOU who you can talk to, if possible.

    You say you don't want to be like that bully... for me I have been fighting to not end up like my father, who couldn't be strong enough to keep his marriage going and divorced my mother. My sister and I have suffered from that decision for our whole lives. I have decided recently, however, that I actually don't care whether I turn out like him or not. This is my life and I'd rather have some shame on the outside (a failed marriage) than the shame I have been feeling on the inside, which is unbearable.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that I would love to see you do whatever it takes to sort this out a bit. I have lost so many years and cannot afford to wait any longer. I regret not making changes 7 years ago when I had the opportunity. But you know what? I have the opportunity now. I am going to take it, rather than looking back 7 years from now wishing once again that I had done something. I encourage you to not wait for years to do something but just do it now. You will be giving yourself YEARS of potential happiness and freedom from your current situation. I don't have it all together so maybe this isn't good advice but I do know one thing for sure: THERE IS HOPE FOR YOU.

    And as for the dating apps, maybe just take a trip to another town/city and you've got a clean slate. I have done everything through apps so far, which has really helped me to find safe encounters with guys that I am interested in. You have a specific thing that you're looking for, so be sure to use all the tools at your disposal.
     
  11. Benway

    Benway Guest

    Wow, we really seem to have something in common, thematically. You're definitely about six thousand steps ahead of me, though. Then again the journey of a million miles begins with a single footprint...

    As for the dating apps, yeah, a trip out of town would do me a world of good, both for hooking up and for my own personal health. I live in the middle of an urban sprawl in Pennsyltucky and it's getting increasingly superficial all the time. But where would I go? Where should I go? I have lots of choices when it comes to that, I suppose. I've heard San Francisco is a good place and I've always wanted to go there ever since I saw Interview With The Vampire, so maybe...

    It's just, how do you start? How do you get over the anxiety of meeting a man online for a hookup, or even for a date? I was only ever in a gay bar, once, locally, awhile back. It was the second-weirdest experience of my little life (the first being my buddy taking me to a fancy strip club, where girls stripped) but it was oddly homey and comfortable. Unfortunately I'm scared to go back to it, because there's some violence against LBGT people in the area, there.
     
  12. Kai LD

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    Benway, I have a lot of empathy for you. I don't get guilty about wanting these things, but for some reason I feel so embarrassed and anxious socially that I just fall back into the shell persona I've used for twenty or so years and watch life go by me. Guys and girls both. I just can't make myself make a move, I'm too passive and feel too awkward.
     
  13. Benway

    Benway Guest

    I appreciate that. As for not being able to make a move, when it comes to girls, I seem to have an odd magnetic attraction to them-- like, they just sort of show up, now and then. The day before I lost my virginity to a woman, I lied in bed all night, awake tossing and turning from anxiety until finally the dawn came and with it a little relief from the pressure of the night's veil and I texted the girl and said "I'm sorry, but I can't do this."

    She got all offended and hurt and I don't remember the conversation very well because I'd not slept (I never save text message conversations or IM logs because I'm not a sociopath like the people who keep logs and records of that crap to pinpoint stuff) but it ended with me boarding a bus (I don't drive) to the neighboring town where she was and... you know. It was an asinine endeavor that brought me nothing but additional self-loathing.

    Right now I'm friendly about the subject, probably because I haven't "cleared my thoughts" (masturbated) in several hours. Though the thoughts can return as soon as a few moments after. Loop-dee-looping me into the very definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result. In this case, the action I'm constantly performing in hopes of a different reaction is making an app profile, logging on, getting off, deleting that profile only to repost within at least five minutes, sometimes as long as a year will go by (that was the most extreme case) before I sink back into it. But it goes on and on in an endless cycle.

    The anxiety doesn't help, either. I'm horrified that one day I'll run into one of my potential buddies at the mall or in public-- I know their reaction would probably be nothing but positive but I still don't know how I'd handle that sort of situation short of either breaking down right there from a panic attack (which I'm prone to) or fleeing the scene as fast as I can on foot like an idiot. Either way it's something that darkens my thoughts all the time.
     
  14. adrum

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    Interesting... I find the idea of a gay bar more intimidating than using an app--maybe I'm just awkward socially and prefer to set things up in advance with the safety of electronic communication (there are obvious drawbacks as well... the person on the app could be lying and not who they claim to be or something... so far I have not experienced this and have had all positive results).

    How did I get over the anxiety (which I was experiencing big time)? I literally made a deal with myself that I was going to start saying "Yes" to anything that I wanted to do on some level. I don't always feel comfortable with this, as I have spent so many years with all of these things hidden in the realm of fantasy. My default answer to ANYTHING would naturally be no, but I had to force myself to be brave and to just say yes. I don't do anything that I don't want to do, but I had to get over the thought that "it's just not me to do these things"... I am discovering that the guy who does these things is the REAL ME.

    The first guy that I met up with was very understanding. I told him that I was new to all of it and a bit nervous. He was totally cool with it and made sure we took it slow at first so that I would be comfortable. Putting a heading on your profile like "New to this" helps to make it less awkward to talk about it. Also the guys who contact you will have already seen this and know that you are new. Be clear about exactly what you want to do before you meet. That way you won't be worrying the whole time whether he will want to go farther than you, etc. For me, I wanted to start with some simple things so I wouldn't feel too much pressure. The important thing for me was just to break the endless cycle of depression from inaction. To do this I just had to do SOMETHING (what that was didn't even matter that much so I chose something easy).

    To be honest I've been surprised at how understanding the guys on these apps can be. I think we all have some insecurities and they usually get that... a lot of them haven't been using these apps for very long so they understand the concerns that you have. If you are open and honest it will go a long way in making you feel more relaxed if you do eventually meet up. You can probably find someone else who is also new and discover things together.

    Bigger cities will obviously give you more options, but there are trade-offs as well... New York would be closer for you but you'd probably need to be more conscious of safety. If you've got the money you can always come down to Sydney... I reckon about a third of us must be gay here :slight_smile:

    ---------- Post added 10th Aug 2014 at 02:34 PM ----------

    Also it helps me to not make plans too far in advance... hook up with a guy who wants it right away and is hopefully close by. If I have all day to worry about it then I tend to freak a bit and back out. Better to say "I'm on my way over now" and just do it.

    Gets easier every time, though.
     
  15. Benway

    Benway Guest

    The gay bar, I was only in there once, visiting an old friend whom I'd not seen in many years upon invitation-- he didn't know I shared a similar orientation. Interestingly enough, one of his friends who was there that night (years ago) I was talking to on one of the apps I use and he didn't recognize me at first until I mentioned it-- he's very friendly and I gave a brief explanation of my situation, but quickly grew disgusted with myself after masturbating and deleted that profile... again. I haven't been back in 27 days (I count how many day I have before 'relapsing,' yeah).

    As for making a deal with myself, I've tried that, so many times, but I've found that either I'm bad at keeping promises, or my "shadow self" is bad at it, or maybe it's the other way around and the supposed "shadow me" is really me and the post-masturbatory me is the "shadow me." Either way, I've tried that making a deal with myself thing so much it begins to physically hurt.

    As for the "I'm on my way" thing, I once told a guy to meet me in a certain location, but I freaked out and only watched from a distance as he looked around for me before I bolted and went home, locked all my doors and windows, shut the curtains, turned off all the lights and electronics and literally sat in a closet. That probably makes me a bad person, but it shows how bad the whole reaction formation thing I've got going on is.

    I'm gonna hate myself in a few hours, anyway.
     
  16. adrum

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    Oh dear, well there is obviously more than just a sexual identity issue going on here. You know that. You are lacking in self-esteem, confidence, emotional health, and probably some other things. You are not comfortable with yourself and who you are (let alone "loving yourself"), nor do you necessarily know who you really are.

    It really makes me upset that it sounds like you've had some terrible therapists who have not really helped you to address these issues. I think you need to sort them out. They are going to affect every area of your life.

    What I will say is that I don't believe you have to get everything sorted before you can start to heal from this... You just need to be on a positive trajectory. It's like personal finances: it really doesn't matter what your bank balance is--as long as you're brining in more money than you're spending then you're on a positive trajectory, which is financial freedom. You can have EMOTIONAL HEALING AND FREEDOM just by being on the positive step. All your problems won't be solved right away but you will be able to feel good about the path that you are on and will have the knowledge that at least you are trying to make a difference in your life.

    I don't have all the answers for you... I think you should try to meet up with at least one guy... do you maybe have a friend who can help you to follow through with it? Maybe go with you (they don't have to watch!)?

    Finally, maybe have another go with therapy... the cool thing is that you are clearly very intelligent and have figured a lot of this out on your own. You're introspective and should be able to clearly communicate these things to a therapist, just as you have here. They can help you identify some of the root causes of your emotions... usually childhood stuff mixed with experiences we've had along the way... sometimes actual conditions or disorders that need medication, which may be helpful for you as well.
     
  17. Kai LD

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    I want you to know that you deserve to be happy Benway and there is nothing wrong with you. I hope you're ok.
     
  18. Benway

    Benway Guest

    I wish I had a closer friend who was of the LBGT persuasion. The only person I can think of off the top of my head is a buddy of mine's mother who is a lesbian (long story, don't wanna explain it) but I'm not that well acquainted with her so it's difficult and I actually have sort of a general disdain for women outside my family.

    As far as therapy goes, been there, done that, a million times over. Even if I wanted to go to therapy now I don't have health insurance and here in America, we've got liberty and justice for all who can afford it and I can't afford a good therapist. Also, if I get pneumonia I can either go bankrupt or die for all they care. So, I'm giving serious thought of moving to Canada-- no I'm not, I wouldn't even know how to go about doing that, I've never been outside the US.

    Like I said, I'm really going to hate myself in the morning, or after the next time I masturbate, whichever comes first.
     
  19. adrum

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    Do you ever think about hurting yourself mate?
     
  20. Benway

    Benway Guest

    Way passed that point in my life. Last time I did was years ago, wound up in the psyche ward some time before my health insurance ran out. I'll spare you the details of how and why. Even if I wanted to hurt myself now (which I don't) I can't afford to get myself patched up by a professional.