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Sexual Fluidity?

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by TheStormInside, Sep 4, 2014.

  1. TheStormInside

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    Could someone explain this concept to me? I don't fully understand it outside of the context of bisexuality. Is it something independent of bisexuality or do the two go hand in hand always?

    When I talk to my therapist about my sexuality she seems hesitant to want to call me gay, or any specific label, and often refers to the "fluidity" of my sexuality, and how things may or may not change over time. I've tried to indicate to her that while I'm not 100% positive I'm gay that is the direction I'm leaning in, yet she still seems to want to skirt that. I'm not sure if it's because she feels I'm wrong or if she just wants me to avoid labeling for now, or what, but I think knowing exactly what "fluidity" means may help me a bit to understand her perspective. I feel like she's saying that I was straight before but am lesbian or bi now, which I don't really feel is the case.
     
  2. Fallingdown7

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    Fluidity I think means that sexuality may change/develop over time for some people (but definitely not all), even if It's just slightly. When bisexuals are described as fluid, it generally means they may prefer men strongly on some days and prefer women strongly on others days instead of having a rigid gender preference.

    Your therapist sounds kind of....off though. I may be wrong, but it almost sounds like she's trying to convince you you aren't gay and that you need to be open to different things. She may just be trying to help you find a label, but it just sounds off.
     
  3. wanderinggirl

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    Fluidity in general is a countermodel to "born this way", and is more an argument for personal freedom. Sexuality is influenced by so many factors, and if you had a clear trigger crush at a young age or simply an awareness that you wanted to marry someone of the same sex from childhood, then your sexuality might never shift and you might never experience opposite-sex encounters or attractions. If you didn't have that experience, then maybe you have an awakening later on that you are gay; or maybe you actually enjoyed/didn't mind encounters with the opposite sex but things just never worked out until you tried with the same sex and things "clicked". There are a hundred ways to come into homosexuality, and maybe even to revert to heterosexuality. If you feel certainty, then your therapist should not need to affirm or negate it; but if you're a little uncertain, it's not helpful to have your therapist pick your label for you.

    By labeling yourself a certain way you alter your own experiences; if instead you accept that truth could change over time you might be more open to following your instincts rather than putting yourself into the "gay" box. I actually think it's great when a therapist doesn't try to label a questioning client.

    Take the "bi" label for example: bisexuality assumes you're willing to have relationships with both men and women to some extent. But if you haven't 100% ruled out opposite-sex relationships, but worry that next time you date a man you will wind up uncomfortable or disinterested in the relationship, then the label "bi" kinda fits because you're not 100% exclusive, but the label "gay" also kinda fits because you might be.

    Having a therapist pick one for you is certainly not going to change your lived experience.
     
  4. TheStormInside

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    So if I identify as lesbian now but am fluid, for example, does that basically mean I could consider myself lesbian now, but bisexual or even straight in the past or future?

    I have a feeling she may think I'm bisexual and swinging between men and women for periods in my life? Like for a chunk of time I was into women, then another chunk of time into men, and now back to women again? I am not certain though as she hasn't said this outright. I am not always great at expressing my thoughts verbally so it's possible I haven't been totally clear with her, but it's also possible she's imposing her own views on me unintentionally, too. She herself is gay and out and councils LGBT patients so I know she has nothing against homosexuality, I just think in my case either she's confused or I am :eusa_doh: . She expressed surprise when I first told her I was questioning my sexuality. She counselled me through the really rough relationship with my ex boyfriend so it's not surprising to me she would be taken off guard there. Added to the mix are intimacy issues and problems with physical touch that could be confusing things as well.

    ---------- Post added 4th Sep 2014 at 03:05 PM ----------

    Thanks, Wanderinggirl, I guess since I'm still a little uncertain I feel a little insecure because I feel like my therapist might be invalidating or not recognizing my feelings. I feel a little like I have to "prove" my gayness to her to get her to understand where I'm coming from and how to move forward. I mean, she's been helpful in other ways so she's not bad but in this particular subject it's making me feel confusion and doubt.

    I expressed to one of my friends that I think I am most likely gay, but that I wouldn't wan to absolutely rule out the possibility of ever being with a guy again. At this point in my life I feel like it's ok to identify as "gay" and if I meet some guy who rocks my world both emotionally and physically I can reassess then. Does that make sense? I don't feel like "gay" *has* to close me off, I feel like it's like 99% likely that the person I end up with will be a woman, but if Mr. 1% comes along I wouldn't want to ignore that. I also recognize that though I feel this way right now it is possible as I continue to live my life and meet people and so on my feelings on the matter may change.

    So if what she's saying is that- that maybe I'm a little fluid in that I might be sort of "homoflexible" so to speak, then I can agree with that. But if she's interpretting it more loosely I feel like maybe we've had a breakdown of communication, or there's something *I'm* not getting.
     
  5. wanderinggirl

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    Can you tell your therapist this exactly? That you feel like she's dismissing your gayness? It might be helpful to her to have feedback, and she can either change her approach or justify her reasoning.
     
  6. TheStormInside

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    That's probably a good idea, thanks. I won't see her for another couple of weeks, but when I see her again I will bring it up. I feel like I may need to try to be more explicit in my thoughts with her, too... I am thinking I may need to write down some of the things I've expressed here and to my friends to help her understand my feelings. I probably need to ask her directly what she means by "fluid" as well, which I should have already done but it was just kind of dropped into the conversation here and there and there were other issues being discussed at the time.

    It's also possible she's just trying to avoid labels as a general rule, I recall years ago I had to explicitly ask her what my diagnoses were and even then she kind of talked "around" the issue so that I kind of had to suss out on my own what she'd considered my problems to be. She basically listed all of the disorders I didn't have rather than the ones I did. :eusa_doh:
     
  7. biAnnika

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    Fluidity refers to any propensity of sexuality to shift over time, either short periods or long periods. It *can* happen to anybody, but I strongly doubt it happens to *everybody*.

    I have a friend who was bisexual for many years...had extremely enjoyable sex with both men and women. As she reached her mid-late 20's, however, she started finding that sex with men just wasn't as enjoyable as it had been, and she completely lost her interest. She now considers herself a lesbian...but with a bisexual past.

    One could argue that she was really *always* lesbian but didn't properly understand that fact, due perhaps to expectations that women *should* be attracted to men. But I find that argument to be rather arrogant/condescending...it assumes that we understand her sexuality better than she does, especially since she *still* feels that she was bisexual previously...it's not like looking back, she feels she really wasn't as into it with guys.

    So I think it's a bit overly-cautious, or even biased, of your therapist to suggest that *your* sexuality is fluid...I mean, yeah, it could be...maybe you won't be a lesbian in 10-20 years, right? But (a) you're a lesbian now and have to deal with that reality in the present, and (b) you might well *still* be a lesbian in 10-20 years.

    To Fallingdown, there are 2 senses of bisexual fluidity...one is the short-term day to day interest in men vs. women; the other is the notion of one's Kinsey number shifting over time. A Kinsey 2, for instance, might yearn for sex with women more on some days than others, but overall, they're a bit more interested in men more of the time (i.e., they are still a Kinsey 2). On the other hand, a person can be a Kinsey 2 for many years, and then find oneself shifting perhaps to more of a Kinsey 4.

    And in response to wanderinggirl's first post, I disagree that fluidity contradicts the "born this way" model. My friend (above) didn't *choose* to start out a bisexual and then shift to become a lesbian...it happened. We don't really know what causes the shifts, any more than we know what causes sexuality at all, but there's no reason to think both sexuality and shifts in sexuality aren't inborn.

    Back to the OP, yes, it makes absolute sense to consider yourself a lesbian now if you're only interested in women now and in the foreseeable future. Of course realize that your feelings can change/shift...but you're still a lesbian now. And I do like wanderinggirl's suggestion of telling your therapist you feel like she's dismissing your experienced sexuality.
     
  8. Damien

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    I think it means, your sexual preference can shift around somewhat. For all the beauty of what I've discovered lately, this is actually the one irritating thing for me; I actually wish it would just 'settle' as either Bi, or Gay, and not shift back and forth as it sometimes does. But I've got to try to accept that I can't choose how I feel, feelings are something beyond rational control.

    But I think you could ask her to exactly clarify what she means by this, too?

    Damien :slight_smile:
     
  9. wanderinggirl

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    You're right, it doesn't contradict it. I might have been a lil too vague. I used the word "countermodel" because the model often used to explain homosexuality is that someone is born gay, always knew it, and will always continue to feel this way; therefore we shouldn't condemn homosexual behavior because it can't be helped. But the "countermodel" of fluidity is that sexuality can change over time, and even if you don't choose to "turn gay" at age 20 you weren't "born straight but destined to turn gay at age 20". Regardless of the origin of fluidity, people should be allowed to pursue whatever lifestyle they want as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.

    The point is, fluidity happens and it's not a choice, but just because someone exhibited heterosexual behavior in the past doesn't mean that their current/future homosexual behavior should be condemned just because they weren't gay from day 1. That's what I mean by countermodel.
     
  10. biAnnika

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    This to me is an interesting question. No, of course, one isn't "destined to turn gay at age 20"...but one also isn't "born gay"...when we're wee, we don't have a sexuality...we grow into it, and *probably* a host of factors including those originating from birth contributes to how it develops. Similarly, both birth and non-birth factors likely contribute to how fluid one is, and how and when sexuality shifts...not precisely what it shifts to or the date of the shift, but the conditions under which it might shift in what directions is plausible.

    Totally agreed here (of course).
     
  11. TheStormInside

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    Thanks for explaining this so thoroughly, biAnnika. I guess I didn't realize that fluidity sort of referred to multiple different types of scenarios (short term, long term, straight, gay, bi, and so on) so this was very helpful.

    I feel like my case is contrary to your friend's, I thought I wanted to be with men, but now I'm realizing that the things I felt for them are not like what straight women feel for men. And that's because I'm now feeling those things for women. I don't deny my emotional attachments or attractions to men and in that way I suppose I'm sort of "biromantic," but the sexual component just wasn't there.

    I mentioned this to a friend who has a lot of knowledge in this area, too, and he said that fluidity could also refer to level of attraction... so if I'd previously considered myself somewhat asexual and now consider myself more likely to be lesbian is that also a kind of "fluidity"? Or is that just repression?

    My reading of this was more that it was about the model being sort of solid and unchanging, so you're gay from day one you're always gay. I don't think Wanderinggirl was saying your friend chose to be fluid, maybe she was "born to be fluid," maybe she just has the perspectives and environment that promotes more exploration than most will allow themselves, or maybe it's some combination therein (which I feel is most likely). We use these terms, "gay" "straight" "bisexual," but the truth of the matter is sexuality is often more complex than that and I think it's possible many people are at least a *little* fluid. That's not to say everyone is "a little bi" because I think that's incorrect, but that sexual feelings are complicated and varied, and seem to exist on a spectrum, and it's hard to pin one or two words onto something that exists on something of a sliding scale.

    Yeah, I feel like I'm still a little hesitant to say I'm 100% positive I'm a lesbian, which is possibly what my therapist is picking up on. But I am trying to get comfortable with the idea that this is indeed the label that seems to be closest to describing my feelings and desires. I will indeed talk to my therapist about it, thanks.

    Yeah, your sexuality does seem to be more "fluid" than many, I can understand your frustration. I guess it sounds like you are always attracted to men, but only sometimes attracted to women, and sometimes not?

    Yes, that's something I've been coming to grips with, too. Emotions can't be controlled by logic. Sadly, I am not a Vulcan. :lol:

    You mean talk with words to her about what I'm thinking? Oh jeez, that's hard :icon_redf
    But no, you're right. I have a hard time speaking up when I disagree with something, and there wasn't a good opportunity to cut in as we were involved in a deeper discussion each time she dropped that word. I was hoping to get a better grasp of its meaning here so that maybe I could understand her perspective better, but it seems like it has too many different applications to be certain so I will indeed have to just ask her, which will probably be helpful in the long run anyway :slight_smile: .
     
  12. stocking

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    I think sexuality can shift in some people but it's rare, but then many people don't believe a woman can have a fixed sexuality and only men can Which utter nonsense.
    I'm not sure about the whole people's sexuality shift maybe it's true maybe it's not , I'm skeptical of it.
     
    #12 stocking, Sep 5, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  13. FortunateSally

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    I don't think someone being gay necessarily bars them from being able to invalidate your feelings. Honestly of the few people i've come out to so far, my gay friends have remained the most skeptical.
     
  14. TheStormInside

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    stocking-
    Yeah, I think it's just a stereotype or generalization that women are more sexually fluid than men. I think it's a product of our culture that women are freer to and sometimes even expected to "experiment" whereas with men even a hug between friends can be interpreted as "Gay" and is therefore taboo.

    I do think people's sexuality can shift over time, I doubt that there are many cases where it's an extremely dramatic shift, or a very sudden one, though. In cases like that it seems more likely that it was someone realizing their true sexuality rather than it actually changing.

    FortunateSally-
    Good point. I guess I was just trying to explain that there's no reason that *I'm* aware of anyway that my therapist would have to dissuade me from thinking I'm gay, like, she's not homophobic.

    It's occurred to me that she may be overly cautious because I've got a history of obsessive thoughts. Having encountered some members here with H-OCD I can definitely see some similarities between myself and them, especially the obsessing and the "testing" and such. And she may be wanting to be careful to be sure this isn't just an OCD thing for me? I don't know, though, that may be reaching as she didn't indicate that in any way. She seems to understand that I am genuinely attracted to women.

    If I try to think about this from my therapist's perspective, I probably need to explain things more clearly to her. I have let bits of my thoughts out here and there but I don't think I've managed to divulge a coherent chunk of introspection in her office in particular. But yeah, it's not particularly helpful to me to have these indications from her that she's trying to push me into a particular direction. I don't think she's doing it intentionally, but from my view I feel like she's also not hiding her opinions particularly well.

    Why is it do you think that your gay friends were the most skeptical? It seems counter-intuitive considering they've likely gone through the same thing you have.
     
  15. wanderinggirl

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    Are these friends people who came out at an early age and never doubted their sexuality? Because that has more influence over whether or not your experiences correlate than whether they are gay or not.

    To friends who are, and always were, and always will be, 100% heterosexual I have the same amount of difficulty explaining my experience as I do to friends who are, and always were, and always will be, 100% homosexual.

    Doubting/questioning one's sexuality has as much, if not more, to do with personality and individual interpretation of feelings than it does one's "innate orientation". I found it easy to tune out my instincts; for other people, their instincts hum so loudly they couldn't possibly tune them out. That, in combination with not being 100% gay, makes it hard for me to relate to gay peoples' coming out experiences, even if we've wound up at more or less the same place.

    Some people have crushes early. Some people know without experimenting. Some people have strong enough personalities that other people "know" before they do and help them come out. And some people are just late bloomers and we were going on autopilot til adulthood and didn't think anything was wrong until we found the answer. And it's all okay! :slight_smile:

    It's helpful to talk with friends of various sexualities, but it's important to view your journey as your own. Your experience is no less valid just because you didn't spew rainbows from early childhood.
     
    #15 wanderinggirl, Sep 5, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
  16. stocking

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    My friends aren't gay but their skeptical as well
     
  17. wanderinggirl

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    Clearly its 'cause you're too pretty to be gay!

    </sarcasm>
     
  18. stocking

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    You got it right wondering girl it's that :thumbsup:

    @thestorminside I agree with everything you said sister .:slight_smile: