Straight male struggling with relationship with bi/lesbian woman

Wow, Sno...there's a lot here.

First and foremost, for your benefit and Sara's: "Kinsey 4" does not equal "lesbian". I say that as a Kinsey 4. A Kinsey 4 is a bisexual, with a significant preference for women. So the fact that you had sex that you both enjoyed is not earthshattering. But let me get back to that in a bit.

The second and almost-foremost note I have on reading your story is that these lesbian friends of yours and Sara's are dead wrong to have meddled, and are being rather cruel in threatening to exclude the two of you as a couple (or to exclude you generally). But neither is their reaction atypical. What it is typical of is bi-erasure: the covering over and explaining away of bisexuality in a conscious or unconscious attempt to deny its existence. The whole "oh, believe me, you're a lesbian, and there's no possible future for you with a man" thing is typical. They made the equation of "woman who enjoys sex with women" = lesbian. And that's an incorrect and homo-centric leap. Many lesbians go the other route as well: "you enjoyed sex with a guy" = "you're straight now". Both are misguided and ignorant, and based on an assumption (or desire) that there is no such thing, really, as bisexuality...which is utter crap.

So you have a perfect right to be furious with Mary, et al. For reasons/biases of their own, they interfered in a relationship they had no business in. I suspect they were fine with you as a straight male, because you weren't threatening to them...you respected their sexuality...until your relationship with Sara indicated (to them) that you didn't...that you were able to shatter their homo-centric world in which Sara was unalterably a sister.

But now back to that Kinsey 4 thing a moment. They had no right to interfere. But they also weren't clearly 100% wrong...wrong to speak, yes, and wrong to put conditions on your friendship, absolutely...but not *necessarily* entirely wrong about what they said.

Yes, as a Kinsey 4 Sara can have satisfying romantic and sexual relationships with men. But there's a real question as to how stable they'll end up being. As a Kinsey 4 I've been with a single female partner for the past 28 years...that's pretty damned stable, let me say. But even so, our attraction to men and desire for contact has increased (mostly, I believe, due to lack of physical contact...not necessarily due to any permanent shift), and our thus-far monogamous nature of our relationship is increasingly threatened. Now turn that around, and suppose that had been a relationship with a *man*? 28 years with no sexual contact with a woman? I just can't see it.

Now I know there's tons of variation, even among Kinsey 4's. And I don't know either of you even a little bit. Maybe you'd be fine. Maybe neither of you is so dead set on monogamy in a relationship that the sexuality disconnect wouldn't have to be a problem. You certainly seem compatible enough that there'd have been nothing wrong whatsoever with exploring the possibilities (which is why I find myself so outraged at Mary and your other friends). But I definitely think there are some issues that you'd want/need to think and talk through quite carefully and to remain aware of during that exploration, and throughout any long term relationship you'd have.

In terms of advice about where to go from here? I don't know. No, you're not wrong to be furious about the interference. If Sara is currently happy in a relationship, I'd say be supportive of that, and be happy for her happiness. But if she is available at some point in the future, I'd consider pointing her toward some information on bisexuality, and trying to engage her in some discussion about sexuality. With some work, and a lot of communication, there is a possibility for a worthwhile experiment here. But I'm afraid that the two of you would probably have to give up on that circle of friends who would reject you...and if you think that's hard for you, it would be even more difficult for her (she no doubt has some identity-attachment to the queer community that she'd have to give up, at least in part, to be part of a long term hetero relationship). But those specific people don't sound worth bending over backwards to stay on the good side of anyway.

Curious to hear any of your thoughts in response. Good luck.

 

Hey just saw your response to your old thread,
and I think you'd be better off just cutting your ties with her for a while, as painful as it might be, and giving her an ultimatum to decide if she wants a relationship or not.

It might be hard and difficult to do but your bond is neither a relationship, nor a friendship and you desperately need clarification, because as things are they are neither good for you nor for her.

You clearly have feelings for her: so for you this is not a friendship, but an emotional relationship and a 'waiting room' for a physical relationship: it prevents you from moving on and meeting somebody you could be truly happy with.

For her your bond is strong enough to be called an emotional relationship with you as well, you clearly 'get each other' well (as is often the case between lesbians and men) and as long as you are in the picture it will sabotage all her other relationships because you are the friend she always comes to when relationships don't work out. Why don't they work out? Because normally people ought to try to talk and solve problems within relationships and NOT through talking to friends with whom they would have a relationship, if their gender was 'the right one'!

You are in a de-facto relationship with her, albeit called a friendship, and things will not change as long as you allow them to go in their unsatisfactory ways.

Break all contact with her , and give her and yourself an ultimatum, otherwise you will both keep getting each other needs met through each other, whilst never being able to develop a full relationship with anyone else, and remain stuck in this half-relationship:

Tell her that you have feelings for her, that you want to try a relationship with her and that you don't have feeling for her 'as a friend' (pretending that you do only have feelings as a friend is kind of dishonest too). If she is not prepared to do it now and then, then say you are breaking all contact with her for 2 or 3 months (its up to you how long, but give her a definite deadline) to give her time to think what she wants from you.

She could start missing you so much that she will realise that she has feelings for you and that she is willing to try a relationship with you, she can come back in that time.
She needs to figure out if she needs and likes you enough to compromise her sexual identity over it, or if she is willing to take the risk of being with a man. She needs to figure it our on her own, you cannot do it for her, but she also owes figuring it out to you and to herself.
You both need to stop jerking each other around: you pretending you can be friends with her, her basically friend-zoning you despite having feelings for you whilst at the same time benefiting from an emotional relationship with you.

If you don't hear from her in the 3 months time (or whatever deadline you give her) start moving on and really cut her out of your life.

You need to stop jerking yourself around as well, by putting all the decisions in her hands and basically letting her use you as her emotional bf, whilst pushing you away as her lover. If you don't respect yourself enough to walk away from somebody being unfair to you, then how can you expect them to respect you enough to give you what you deserve?

Declare your feelings and your position, set clear boundaries, give her time to think and evaluate her feelings and your presence in her life by withdrawing yourself completely from her life. She cannot do it if you continue supplying it her with your emotional involvement. Give her the terms on which you are willing to return to her life: trying to be together as a couple, give her a reasonable deadline by which she can decide if she is willing to go along with this or not. Get a hobby such as rock climbing or similar for the time you are waiting for her to decide, to get you through it.

If you don't hear from her by then, cut your losses and move on. It will be hard and painful, but I guarantee you will you grow through it as a person. Making an assertive decision yourself, for yourself maybe painful, but it also will make you feel more in charge of your own happiness.

Good Luck!

Edit:

Just to add: you are understandably angry with your mutual friends, but in the end it is your decision to keep being involved with her, and her decision to keep having you in her life in a way which is comfortable to her, whilst rejecting a relationship with you.
The decision to continue or not is yours, you have to own it. Getting angry with your friends will not solve anything and it only make you feel powerless, when really you have the power to decide what you are willing to take from whom, and what not. Stand your own ground, you are responsible for your own happiness, those friends are not responsible for your happiness, you have no right to blame them for not convincing their friend to act in your interest. Look after your own interest yourself, instead of hoping that others will recognise it, and change their actions to make you happy.

 

Send her to this site so that we can chat with her. I don't like the extreme right attempting to make everyone straight. I don't like the extreme left attempting to make everyone gay. I HATE that so many people get hurt and left broken as collateral damage between the two.

You two could have a wonderful life together, buts for YOU TWO to decide, not the rest of the world. Maybe you should get together with her and watch the movie "Kissing Jessica Stein"

Of course I am also with the concern ( as mentioned by a previous poster ) that you may just be the comfy fall back guy when things get tough. If that is the case then RUN. There is nothing healthy in that sort of relationship. didn't every Molly Ringwald movie of the 80's teach us that?

 

The labels "gay" "straight" and "Bisexual" and the Kinsey scale are very useful in examining sexuality, from an academic point of view. But life is not an academic exercise.
All that concerns you is that you love each other.
No matter what you do people will give out about your situation, after all someone is always complaining in the newspapers about other people all the time.
All relationships have difficulties and most of those difficulties are unique to each relationship.
All I can say is follow your heart and, as we say in Ireland, "Fu*k the begrudgers"

 

Hey Sno,

First of all, welcome to our community. I was a little taken aback that I was the only one who replied to your post before it fell out of sight. Usually we're a pretty opinionated bunch, and don't mind sharing those opinions...maybe we all just had holiday plans on our minds *smile*. Anyway, from what I've seen, we're are also a pretty welcoming bunch, and many/most are rather open-minded.

Do be mindful that many of us have been hurt by straight people in various ways...some through persecution, but probably most through unrequited love and/or trying to make love work that couldn't possibly work in order to satisfy society's expectations and/or the wound in themselves that results when they've hurt a straight partner by needing to end a marriage or other long term commitment because they've realized their sexuality disconnect. So it's not just blind prejudice, or fear that you're "the enemy in sheep's clothing". And I needn't be just talking about our members here at EC. There are good reasons why the relationship between the LGBT community and the rest of the world is often a complicated one.

Yup, I agree with your disgust there. Their *issues* may be understandable, but their actions were despicable. I am not a fan of slinging ultimatums...certainly not on their part, but neither on your part (responding in part to other posters here, as well). It's one thing to phrase an ultimatum in your head, as a promise to yourself, and stick to it...it's entirely another to hand another person a do-or-die situation. Ultimatums are manipulation tactics, and a relationship should be forged on something better/stronger than that.

I get what you mean, and I agree with you and other posters on the danger here. There are two dynamics going on, though; one is reasonable (or seems so to me), and one is not.

The first is the dynamic of "whenever she breaks up with a gf, she comes to you for support". That feels entirely reasonable to me. That's a longstanding friendship dynamic between you. It may be difficult, due to your feelings, but it's not unreasonable for her to expect such support, nor for you to provide it.

The other dynamic, however, is that of "whenever she breaks up with a gf, she questions whether she should have a relationship with a male, specifically you, and brings those questions to your door." That's a struggle within her that only she can answer, and it's inappropriate for you to be involved in. You've voiced your strong willingness to have such a relationship...and you've admirably kept that door open through a quite a lot. But you can't help her make that decision in any other way. Unfortunately, she also (it sounds) cannot turn to her other friends for support in making that decision, which is likely why she comes to you. This could be worth talking through with her...the fact that you cannot participate in helping her make this decision...you're far too biased...and it's painful to you and disrespectful of her to have you involved in it. You're there if she decides "yes"...but you can't help her decide.

But there are complexities to her decision there that she does need support with. I think I mentioned in my last post about those issues with "queer identity" and losing queer community. There is a lot to that. There are ways to get around it, I suspect, although I've never had to try. But at least *apparent* queer identity is a big thing to give up, even for a satisfying relationship. Not sure if this makes sense as I'm describing it now...so let me just wrap up by recommending that she either talk through this issue and making her decision with a therapist (because it's big, tangled, and needs someone more objective than anyone else that she has access to...that I'm aware of, certainly); and/or that she come here, as trailrider suggested. We are very therapeutic support for one another, and there are enough perspectives here that she can sort through the various opinions and biases herself and find it all useful.

In any case, continued best wishes with this. I'm always happy to share perspective...and yeah, giving a damn is a service I provide for free. *smile*