Hi, I have been really struggling for years, now, and I am very confused. I wonder if there are others in my situation. My problem is that I feel comfortable with girls, I feel safe with girls, dating a girl has always felt normal and right, but the bedroom part has always been problematic... When I was a pre-teen, and teenager, I got exposed to smut magazines and I did not understand them... I found some of the girls in the pictures good looking but I could not get myself to want to pleasure myself like the other boys who gave me the magazines did. I did not feel like "doing" those girls and, more importantly, I did not have that specific "physical reaction" that leads to sex or masturbation, no arousal whatsoever, in other words. I had been cross-dressing for fun since early childhood secretly because my mom was very disparaging towards my choosing playmates who were girls or engaging in what society usually defines as girl activities, like playing dress up, sing, paint nails, etc. As I became a teen ager, and I noticed I was not aroused by naked women I became scared to death of being gay. Gay people were ridiculed by my parents, my older brother often told me I was gay while pointing out my lack of courage or non standard behavior, etc. and that would hurt my feelings. He would also make fun of my small genitals. My peers would make fun of gay people, threaten them and beat them up, gay people in their eyes were just like women: "objects" to "bang", use and despise, consider inferior, in fact gays were much lower on the totem pole than girls. I liked girls, though and as I pre-teen I was a bit intimidated by boys, especially older boys and would love hanging around with girls. There were boys I kind of liked being in the company of, though, they were usually strong and/or older and I would feel kind of protected in their company. Of course they would all seem to get girlfriends and they would prefer spending time with them, especially if sex was involved, which would hurt my feelings. Then one day I was exposed to smut magazines where there were not only naked women but both men and women, and also men and men, or men and trans-women, plus there were erotic stories narrated by women who would enjoy sex with men: well I still remember the picture of this feminine looking guy, wearing a women's top in the act of giving oral sex to this other guy... I felt something moving inside me, like definite arousal and shame, but mostly identification with the feminine guy pleasuring the other guy... Then I noticed I really enjoyed the erotic stories narrated by women who enjoyed sex with men. A lot. I would really get aroused, I identified with the woman, but I thought it was normal. All the times I chanced upon a smut magazine which was not often, I would get to be awed by how beautiful certain women and their hair, makeup and styles were, but I could not find their genitals attractive, no matter how much I tried. Somehow I would always seek out the guys or the gay scenes or the trans scenes... I was so scared of being gay, I was mortified. I would seek out gay scenes with guys I found really ugly in order to prove to myself I was not gay. Then one day when I was 15, I discovered sexual pleasure: while dressed like a girl, I thought about the women in the magazines being penetrated by men and I somehow inserted a cucumber in a certain spot. I felt like I was in Heaven. I really imagined a man doing that and I felt wonderful, the sexual excitement and pleasure was incredible. Afterwards I felt horrible and I was afraid of being gay. I tried again to imagine ugly guys I knew rape me in order to feel repulsion and prove to myself I was not gay. Well, in the years to follow pleasuring myself anally whether or not while cross dressing, became my number one source of sexual pleasure, but I was still horrified at the idea of being gay. Plus I would have orgasmic dreams where I was with a guy, sometimes I was a guy in my dreams and sometimes I was a woman, but I was always passive. Sometimes I was with a woman in my dreams but after a while she would have a penis a penetrate me. Then I discovered the term autogynephillia, i.e. straight guys who enjoy seeing themselves as women... I thought I was it: "I liked fantasizing about men and penetrate myself because I wanted to imagine I was a woman", and, according to literature, I was neither transsexual nor gay. I felt very relieved. I never thought about being gay or transsexual for a long time and thought I was a normal hetero guy with a fetish, so to speak. I started dating a girl who fell greatly in love with me, she would tell me she found the perfect guy in me, so attentive, so nice, so sensitive, who would buy her plush animals, love go shopping with her and stuff. We were in love and we were going steady. It felt great to have a steady girlfriend, go out with other couples, etc. The bedroom was OK I would love to pleasure her orally, most of the time thinking she was a guy. Then I slowly got her to pleasure me with a toy, and that was pretty much the only way we would have sex ever after... I was very private about it because I was afraid of being gay. Then I told her I was a cross dresser and enjoyed fantasizing being the woman with a man in the bedroom. She "worked" with me for some time but eventually wanted to leave because she said she needed a man... She was struggling with her feelings and felt guilty so I made it easy for her and broke it up first. Years went by and things stayed the same: felt comfortable with women and wanted to date women, which I found beautiful but it was hard in the bedroom because I never stopped liking being passive and never got to learn how to enjoy to use my penis to pleasure women. I knew what to do to pleasure women and reportedly did a very good job at it but I never enjoyed it. Then I thought maybe I was a transsexual who was a lesbian, and so I would have fantasies where I was a woman with a woman and also a man: I would really enjoy the man in the relationship, but I felt very good and safe about having the woman there. Then again I remembered autogynephillia and how autogynephilacs are not really transgender, so I would let it be I flirted with men, got courted by men, got very close to starting sex with men but I always pulled out at the very last minute. Then I would regret not gong for it and I would fantasize about it. I would have online relationship with men and I would greatly enjoy having cybersex with them. I loved being their "girlfriend"... My problem, to get to the point, is that in real life I have never really met a guy I have so most definitely fallen for, in a way that I could get over all my problems and preconceptions. I have met a couple of guys I found attractive, but most guys leave me cold and some repulse me. Only this one time I had met online this gay guy who was a couple of years older than me. He was not ugly, kind of cute, and I connected well. Alas, I called off our first real life get together at the very last minute. Of course I have also never met a girl who made me totally lose it. To top it off, sexually, I want to be passive with a man. I want to be his girlfriend. I like male genitals a lot and I like strong shoulders and arms, I love a guy who is taller than me. Yet, I don't like very hairy men or men who are not clean and well taken care of, which leads me to believe I may not really like guys that much. So, is there anybody else who feels this way? Could I be gay but not allow myself to be it because of shame and the fact that men belong with women and vice versa and all the rest is against nature???
Perhaps you are suffering from "internalized homophobia". There is so much contempt toward homosexuals and the like, and some of them end up internalizing this contempt for themselves.. which results in constant guilt and shame. The only people who *do* have a reason, however far-fetched to oppose homosexuality are religious folk. If you don't subscribe to such beliefs then there is absolutely no reason for you to feel ashamed. People do things "against nature" all the time. I'm not sure if you could stop "being gay" even if you wanted to, but I don't think fantasizing about ugly guys and rape would be even remotely effective in that regard. Not to mention labels are vastly overrated. Maybe instead of worrying about being "gay", you can just try to determine what your sexual desires really are, accept them and hopefully satisfy them. Correct me if I'm wrong, from your post it looks like your desires primarily revolve around being the passive partner or the receiver, and not the physical appearance of your partner. Although you may find female bodies to be "beautiful" and male bodies to be strong and protective, I'm not sure if you're sexually attracted to either of them. It could be difficult to call yourself "gay" when you are only aroused by penises and not by a guy's chest, arms and legs et cetera. I also like guys, but I think of their entire bodies as a temple of worship.. A work of art for me to make love to. Personally, I would not care about them being taller than me (which would be unlikely)
From what you're describing, it's clear there's a tremendous amount of internalized shame that's been there for a very long time. It's also pretty clear that you're gay, or at least, strongly attracted to men. My guess is that the other things you're describing -- dressing up like a woman and so forth -- are likely ways of avoiding the core issue of attraction to men. The really good news is that you're feeling comfortable talking about it now, at least online. And that's a huge step. I'm going to suggest a couple of things. First, I highly recommend Joe Kort's excellent book "Ten Smart Things Gay Men Can Do to Find Real Love" which has almost nothing to do with finding real love, but everything to do with understanding and loving yourself. Second, I'd strongly suggest watching Brené Brown's three TED talks, "The Power of Vulnerability", "The Price of Invulnerability" and "Listening to Shame." These will take a total of an hour between the three of them, and Brené is an engaging, funny, and insightful researcher whose work will, I think, impact you pretty significantly. And... keep talking here about what you're feeling. Shame is something that everyone experiences, but LGBT people tend to have more of it because of the messages we get growing up. The way we work through it is by talking about it and finding others (including online in places like EC) where you can share it and have others share their experiences. This is a very solvable problem, and you will get to a place where you can accept and love yourself. You've already taken a huge step in that direction.
Well, if a guy is smaller than me I feel like an Amazon so to speak... Make sense? Well, I think I did mention that I find strong chests, shoulders and arms pretty attractive... It is very hard for me to describe my feelings... In my nightly dreams where a man makes love to me everything clicks and makes sense, but then I find it hard to describe it all in words... Plus, the truth of the matter is that I usually start to find a guy *very* attractive, not just attractive, after they come talk to me and I feel very good about how they make me feel. Have you ever had the same type of feeling? Do you think I am indeed gay or just strongly attracted to men and indifferent towards women?
Thanks for the tip, I will read the book and watch the videos, although I am not sure in what order, yet! Well, you might be right about the dressing up like a woman thing, I really need to evaluate if I really need to be a woman in order to allow myself to be loved by a man. One therapist had told me I was just gay and that the transgender thing was just my way to avoid guilt and shame, in other words "if I were a woman there would be nothing wrong with wanting a man to love me" Another therapist though had told me that I was really a hetero woman, i.e. a transsexual woman because my feelings towards men were, according to her, those of a woman not of a gay man (wanting a relationship, but not just sex, etc.). Well, one problem that I have always had is that when I go to a gay club it seems that I always have someone grab my behind within minutes and/or make obscene proposals to me... Transgender women seem to be obsessed with clothes and nails and make up and sitting around like teen-age girls, and stuff... I mean, I did play dress up and painted nails and stuff but when I was 7-8... I am much older now.. There is a lot more to life than engaging in exaggerated, stereotypically female activities... The main thing that has changed for me lately is that I seem to be able to confide in men, you know, about the feelings I have towards men... Before it was just women... I guess I do not feel threatened by men as much anymore... I guess the bad experience I had at 13 is no longer weighing that heavily on me (at 13 an older boy I really liked tried to have his way with me... Infatuation turned into terror within seconds.. I knew nothing about sex back then... I ended up running away scared and barricading myself into the bathroom and spending the whole night there...) I am not sure you can imagine how ashamed and scared I was growing up, how devastating it is to look at naked women and not feel an ounce of attraction... It was so hard... :-( Have you ever experienced anything similar?
Right, now I can understand your situation a little better. I find it fascinating that, the way you try to convey your sexuality, and the words you use to do so seem like the ones a straight woman would use to explain her own desires. That is just what I think anyway, especially this sentence: "Plus, the truth of the matter is that I usually start to find a guy *very* attractive, not just attractive, after they come talk to me and I feel very good about how they make me feel". As far as I'm concerned, the bolded part seems exactly like something a woman would say. I do think that you are strongly attracted to guys, but since I don't like labels myself there is no way I would use one to define your orientation. Yet, I'm still uncertain if you find the appearance of a guy's chest and shoulders to be physically attractive, or the fact that they are representative of his strength. For me it's the former, I find them attractive and beautiful based on their appearance alone. From what I've read on your posts, you seem to like "strong" guys who take charge in the bedroom. Such desires seem to be very common among both bio females, trans women and homosexual guys ( dominant / submissive, giver / receiver, top / bottom). I'm quite aware that women and feminine guys have a tendency to desire a "strong" man to take care of them in the bedroom. Whatever floats your boat, but I could never relate to this kind of thinking because human bodies are quite fragile regardless of sex. I'm not sure if I could pretend to be a "strong" dominant guy to satisfy a submissive partner when a small accident can break my joints and cripple me for the rest of my life. Not to mention I'd find it a lot more intimate to simply "make love" to someone instead of one of us being the "dominant" partner. Anyway.. I hope you find what you seek.
[/COLOR] Hi Fentrion, Well maybe I am really finding it hard to express my feelings correctly, sorry about all these mixed messages, but I would not really be looking to be *submitted* to any partner, I am not into fetishes, but rather to find someone with whom I can be on a equal level, with whom there can be both talking and listening, giving and taking, etc. nor would I be looking for someone to be an absolute provider and carry me around on the palm of his hand, although that does sound good, as a matter of fact hehehe, the part about being carried around on the palm of his hand, that is, I would want to find someone who not only loves me but also respects me and treats me like an equal, someone who is mature and stable and also who does not need a lot of emotional work. Do you see what I mean? For what concerns the bedroom well, yes, it would be nice to have someone who knows what he's doing, since I am a bit shy in that department, but this same person should also be able not to break the boundaries of mutual respect. Make a bit more sense, now? Most importantly, I am not into orgies, I am not into following someone to his room after a 20 minute chat at a bar, I would like to find a gentleman who knows how to value me and treat me with respect. The bedroom stuff is important but all the rest that leads to the bedroom counts a lot more in my book. Of course I have an idea of what I find attractive on a guy, but once again, how the person makes me feel, what transpires through his heart can trump anything else, I mean a guy I really cared about was older, he definitely did *not* have a hot, muscular body, he a bit of a tummy, he had glasses and he was balding, but, who cares, when you put all the other, more important stuff together, he was simply perfect and the way I felt in his company, even sitting at a café sipping a soda, was fantastic and I felt completely loved and taken care of.
When I used words like "strong" or "dominant" I did not mean the hard BDSM stuff, only someone who takes charge in the bedroom. I guess I should've made that clear. At this point I'll say again that, there is absolutely no reason for you to feel ashamed. Just accept who you are and enjoy yourself, since life is too short to waste on toxic shame. Good luck
There is one thing though that I really seem have a problem with, when it comes to identifying as gay, and that is the way gay men seem to go around romance: it seems like that sex is what it is all about. Penis size, preferences in bed, etc. seem to be what it is all centered around!!! I tried to join a couple of dating sites and every single contact I have had was all centered on sex: how do I like it? Do I have a place where I find it hot to do it? Do I have naked pictures I can send? What does my mid section look like, especially size wise? Well of course, aside from the fact that my mid section is rather unimpressive, I clearly must not respond as expected to such questions, because my admirers seem all to lose interest rather quickly. Plus, gay men seem to be rather "visual", they do not seem to be much into talking and sharing, finding emotional connections, but rather looking at naked pictures! Even in this threads the visual aspect of things seemed to be rather important in the answers I got: like I mentioned before, I really don't find that many men attractive, maybe 1 to 5% do I find visually appealing, whereas many, if they were to try and kiss or something I would probably run for my life, I mean, of course I find myself noticing broad shoulders or nicely defined muscles, or deep eyes, but I don't spend my days ogling pictures of naked men for fun! I tend to start finding men really attractive after they come talk to me, after we make a connection, after they start making me feel in a certain way. It might sound silly but I like to be courted, I love to feel desired, to feel wanted to feel adored by a man. When a man captures my heart with his attention, and his passion for me, an average looking guy can start looking real good, I may start noticing nice things about him, visually, that I had never noticed before. Now maybe a pair of lips become very kissable, and stuff like that. Are there any gay men who can comment on this? I hope I was able to explain why I feel a bit uneasy labeling myself as gay... I also hope I did not offend anybody and I am course ready to learn something I did not know.
I am not entirely sure about women, but I believe male sexuality is primarily visual. Physical appearance is always important in sexual relationships. It may be true that gay guys are mostly interested in sex and hookups, but lots of them are also interested in romance. You can just browse the relationship forums of this site to find hundreds of emotionally intense stories written by gay and bi guys. It is possible to talk to, share experiences with and love someone regardless of their appearance. Sexual relationships are not that simple however.
Yeah, there is a lot more to life than engaging in exaggerated, stereotypically female activities, but if you happen to enjoy them, there's no harm in doing so, and I would not let anyone, counsellor or otherwise, try to tell you it's not really 'who you are' to do so. Maybe you are a gay guy who also enjoys feeling female a bit...I know I enjoy feeling this way sometimes, and I'm not trans, just kinda androgynous. There are so many shades and varieties of human sexuality. We don't all fit into neat boxes with clear-cut labels. Liking girly things might have nothing to do with trying to 'avoid' anything. Maybe you are a gay guy who also likes being a bit girly sometimes. I certainly do and I don't care if others think it's 'not really me'. To those folks I'd say, "I'll decide who I am, thanks". Note I said 'maybe' alot cos ultimately only you can discover the truth of the matter, and so I also am just suggesting possibilities, nothing more. Just some food for thought. (*hug*) ---------- Post added 25th Jul 2015 at 08:29 PM ---------- Good that these guys exist on ec, I just wish I could find one in real life.
Yes, Damien, where are all these guys??? :-D There is nothing wrong with doing anything I was just talking about what my therapists told me... I agree with you 100%: if one enjoys watching TV all day, for instance, there is nothing wrong with indulging in such activity. Sometimes I really wonder if maybe I am just so ugly that guys only want sex from me... What do you think looking at my pictures? Can a gay guy find me attractive?
hmmm Well, older and masculine are most definitely good , chubby does not really bother me... So, if personality, smile and attditude are good... Why not? PS. Nothing but a top would do it, so that is most definitely good, as well ...
Based on everything else in your post I would tend to agree with therapist #1 as one possibility, and I cringe at reading therapist#2's comments. Really... sounds as preposterous as saying something like the ONLY reason str8 guys would get married is so they won't have to go looking for sex every night. I don't think someone needs to constantly have sex with random strangers and have a dislike for any level of emotional relationship to be allowed to "qualify as gay"... Not saying it doesn't exist, but really... I'm also curious, to put things in context, about what is the general view, and laws about homosexuality in your part of the world (you don't have to disclose where you live if you're not ok with that), because that and the environment in which you grew up certainly can affect how you think you're supposed to behave and feel, how you "naturally" are inside, and the compromise you possibly bargained yourself into.
I grew up in the Southern United States, better known as the Bible Belt.... Yes, when I talked to a counselor in College he told me that G*d made Adam and Eve, *NOT* Adam and Steve... The one therapist seemed to feel that way because of my childhood, my voice, my mannerism, and also because we seemed to really have a connection, she said she saw me as a little "sister" and she had had bad experiences with men. ---------- Post added 25th Jul 2015 at 12:51 PM ---------- She also saw the world in stereotypes, so women want romance, seek emotional connections, men want sex, are visual, etc.
nice to know we are in the same boat then... its hard when you know what you like but have a hard time acting on them...i guess in the end it all boils down to self love n acceptance something I myself getting better at but not yet there to act on my fantasies..
Well, I think that with accepting yourself you are on the right path to acting on those fantasies of yours. If you need to talk, my wall is all yours...
