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I chose my sexuality

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by Funn, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. Funn

    Funn Guest

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    I know that, for some reason, gay people are very bent out of shape about proving that sexuality is something inherent. That it is something we are born with like eye or hair color. I do not believe that, and I do not want to believe that. That would be just terrible. We are so out of control of our own bodies that we cannot even choose who to love?

    I am a lesbian. I have been a lesbian for as long as I can remember. So what if I meet a wonderful person that treats me beautifully, respects me, protects me, does all the other wonderful things that people do when they love someone, but he happens to be male. I simply cannot be attracted to him because I am a lesbian in the same way that I am right-handed...? Why are we even hoping that is true?

    Do we think it proves something to straight people if we were born gay? Because it actually means nothing at all, except that we are a bunch of animals that have no ability to control our own bodies. I have seen straight people become gay. They were straight, and completely comfortable and happy being straight, then they decided they wanted to be gay. That would be impossible if your sexuality was only inherent. (please note the ONLY in that statement, as I can't say whether sexuality is not at least inherent in some people) I have never seen anyone decide to have blue eyes if they were born with brown.

    Don't get me wrong, if it really means something to you to go on believing that we were all born gay, go right ahead. What I don't like is the insistence that it is a proven fact beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    There was a time that people knew that the following things were "proven facts", proven by science without any room for any argument at all-

    The sun and the planets revolved around the Earth.

    The Earth was flat

    When women start having cramps once per month, its because the womb is floating around in their belly with nothing to keep it from bumping into all the other organs. (Doctors treated women based on this medical "fact")

    Trepanning, or drilling a hole in someone's head, was an effective way to treat insanity.


    All of these were proven facts, with no room for doubt.

    All I am asking is that people stop acting as though everyone that does not agree with them is an idiot. That is called bigotry.
     
  2. HM03

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    I think that lots of people think that is it's proven to be not a choice, then there will be less homophobia.

    However, about your comment about if a guy treats you right, you could fall in love. I think that's one of the bittersweet things about love, we can't control it, and that makes us humanly human. Sure, I could a girl, but it would be a brotherly thing.
     
  3. Michael

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    This is a fact, we cannot choose. It can make you quite upset, and I've been there many times. It's not an easy fact to accept that someone is turning you on, even when you dislike that person, but the more you try to resist, the worse it'll get. And it'll get worse not because of her, but because of you hurting yourself.

    You met people who turned gay? They were probably bisexuals from the start. I know for a fact that I can't have sex with a huge, muscular, hairy man, among other things because I had the chance and I politely declined, 'cause the very thought of it makes me puke. He might be the most charming, intelligent and even (from an artistic point of view) pleasant looking male on earth, but he won't turn me on the same as a girl with a soft, female voice, and her fleshy curves, and her smell and touch.

    You say that turns us into animals? Well, we were animals from the start. We share many genes (the majority of them) with gorillas, and we do need to eat and breathe like dogs, and it's a fact we are carrying around a highly complex reproductive system where the brain and the genitals are linked in so many ways, just to think about it will make you fucking dizzy. And at the same time, all that complexity is beautiful, you know, because that is us, that is what makes you human, just being animals and being capable of typing posts like these, and there is nothing wrong or dirty in being who we are, unless you want it to be wrong or dirty for reasons that will only make you feel miserable.

    I was never comfortable with the fact that I like women sexually. Never. It never felt right, and the fact that I am carrying a ton of insecurities about my physical appearance has frustrated me, and depressed me, and this went on for many years, but since I just gave up and enjoyed the ride, I'm feeling quite good myself, so good that I don't care that you or the likes of you call me animal... Yes, I am an animal, right, shall I go on my four legs and be your dog for the night? :lol:
     
  4. Creativemind

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    I think the issue is the wording choice. It's completely possible to 'fall in love with the opposite sex' for some gay people, because sexuality can be fluid. But it isn't a choice you make.

    Think of sexuality like food. If you hate pepperoni pizza, you can't really choose to like it- regardless of how much you eat it and eat it, the bad taste is still there. AND you feel miserable forcing yourself to like it. But maybe one day -by magical chance- you try it again, and you magically love it. Again, this is by chance and not by any conscience choice or pressure to force yourself to like this pizza.

    So I have to half agree and half disagree. If you're a lesbian who magically falls in love with a man, there's no law saying that you cannot pursue this relationship just because of your label. A huge issue is though, that many lesbians will never fall in love with men regardless of how much they like a guy's personality, to them it may feel like 'falling in love' with their siblings or parents because of how they're wired. So labeling sexuality as a choice universally forces and pressures these women to date these men they don't want to, especially by straight homophobes (since we live in a society where lesbians are considered fake and all need the right man).
     
  5. Funn

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    That is not for you to say. You don't have a right to tell anyone what their sexuality is. If they say they were straight, no one has any right to say otherwise.



    I used to hate onions. I mean I hated them since I was a kid. My whole family loves them and puts them in everything, so I just started forcing myself to eat them. Over time, I got to the point where I could stand them, but I didn't really like them. Now, I actually like onions a lot. I was born not liking onions, then I chose to like them. Why is it so hard to believe the same can be true of what sex/gender I like? Why does it have to be inherent? What actual difference would that make about anything?

    Labeling sexuality as some genetic or inherent trait, makes people that are attracted to the same sex feel obligated to be gay. What if they just do not want the hassle or the struggle of being gay? Is it up to you to convince them that they have to be? We can be anything we want to be. That is the actual beauty of LGBT. It isn't that we are giving in to some primal instinct that we have no control over. If that is the case, why have a gay pride parade? Are you proud of breathing air or eating food? If being gay is just something you could not change even if you wanted to, you have no right to treat it as some big accomplishment. You could not change it no matter what you did, so it is not an accomplishment, it is just coincidence.

    I can't speak for everyone, and I don't want to. I choose to be who I am. No one has any say over that except me. I won't be convinced that I am just a victim of circumstance and that who I am attracted to or in love with is not in my control. In fact, I would say that is one of the things that within my control more than just about anything.

    I am sorry if that is offensive to some people. If you want to believe that being gay is inherent, please do. I made this because I was noticing a lot of people on here talking as though anyone that believed homosexuality is a choice, must be some sort of idiot. That is wrong wrong wrong. If you don't agree with me, I have no problem believing that you are very intelligent and have a good reason to choose what you believe.
     
    #5 Funn, Feb 3, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016
  6. biAnnika

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    Funn, I think you're conflating sexuality with sexual behavior. You've seen people stop dating opposite-sex partners and start dating same-sex partners. Or you've seen people stop outwardly (and possibly inwardly) identifying as straight and start identifying as gay. That isn't changing from straight to gay; that is developing your understanding of yourself.

    I'll put it to you this way. For the past 30 years I've been monogamous with a female partner. If my sexuality is determined by my behavior alone, then I am a lesbian (and loads of gay-identifying people out there are actually straight). But sexuality is not the same as sexual behavior.

    Your examples of "proven facts" are exactly the opposite of that. They were "accepted knowledge"...nothing to do with science. In fact, they were resisted heavily for years because people were unwilling to consider scientific evidence to the contrary of common wisdom.

    Choosing to be gay is (in some circles, particularly many religious ones) common wisdom. I've never seen scientific evidence that supports the notion. On the contrary, there *is* evidence that sexuality is innate (certainly all the people who have tried various means to *stop* themselves from being gay, including paying thousands of dollars for various therapies because they don't *want* to be gay, but can't help it; but more formal studies as well).

    If you choose to ignore evidence, because you don't care for the implications, then it's not we who are being irrational.
     
  7. Michael

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    I say whatever I want, and I think it's hypocritical to demand certain rights for yourself while you deny others of that very right. It seems we all like freedom of expression unless someone comes stating an opinion different than our own.

    If you feel offended, know that no harm was meant towards you, among other reasons 'cause I don't have anything to win out of being offensive, so don't take it that way... Or do if you wish.



    Enjoy your onions then...
     
  8. Secrets5

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    Hello,

    You can believe what you'd like, but please don't get mad at others who want to believe something else - that's bigatory too.

    I'd like to think that we could choose our sexuality, whatever sexuality that is, as it gives people more of a choice. But I think the most a person can do is choose sexual acts and we have seen this by force (illegalising male homosexuality) and not by force (lesbian separatism) in history.

    Maybe someone does choose to be gay, just like how someone chooses to have blonde hair instead of natural brown, but just like they're always going to be naturally brown, they're going to be naturally straight. This said, not all people with naturally brown hair want to dye it blonde, and are fine the way it is. (if you understand my anologie).
     
    #8 Secrets5, Feb 3, 2016
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  9. smurf

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    You are speaking with theory and about ideas, but you are losing the context in the world that you live in.

    Have you ever heard of Conversion Therapy?

    The believe that LGBT chose to be gay isn't new and it hasn't come without consequences. People have been killed, tortured and even lobotomized based on the belief that they chose to be LGBT.

    So cool theory, but its irresponsible of you to fight for the belief that people are born LGBT when its still legal for parents to send their kids to camps where they will be traumatized for life.

    So yeah, go ahead and believe whatever you want about your own sexuality. Just understand the context of the world around you

    You are focusing on the wrong battle there.

    Love isn't tied to sexuality. You can love whoever you want. Want to date, marry and have sex with the opposite sex? Go right ahead. There are hundreds of people currently doing that. Many of them being completely honest about their sexual orientation.
     
  10. driedroses

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    Actually, I know a couple of gay men who could never fall in love with a woman. Yeah, small sample size and that's their words only, but I believe them. They've never felt love, other than familial or platonic, for a woman.

    I also know that I didn't choose to be bisexual. I just am. I've always been attracted to male and female and everything in between. It's not a choice I made. That doesn't mean that because I've had heterosexual relationships until now that I was ever straight and I'm now choosing to be a lesbian because I'm in a relationship with a woman. I'm bisexual regardless of whom I'm involved with.

    I completely believe that sexuality is a spectrum and that people can be fluid on that spectrum and choose with whom they wish to be involved, but that some people do fall on the polar ends of the spectrum as well. My ex is gay - he has always been gay, even during the 18 years of our marriage. He was gay. He's not quite as gay as the two men I referenced earlier, because he was able to love and have a relationship with a woman. That doesn't make him any less gay and it doesn't mean that when he accepted his sexuality that he was choosing to be gay.

    The idea that we choose our sexuality can be very harmful to many people. To not understand the fluidity and spectrum issues - that's one thing. But I've lost my family of origin because I've "chosen" to be bisexual; they no longer accept my ex because he "chose" to be gay. They've given up on my niece and my kid because they are "choosing" to be part of the LGBT community. I might be an adult, my ex might be an adult, but my niece and my kid are KIDS. They shouldn't be losing family, they shouldn't be despised and hated, and they shouldn't have to deal with bigotry for being who they are.
     
  11. Funn

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    I know they weren't really proven facts, that was my point. They were considered to be scientifically proven, but they were obviously ridiculous. Kind of like the "scientifically proven fact" that we have no control over our sexuality. People have been calling that a fact since the first piece of evidence even suggested it. Not because it actually is a fact, but because they have a misguided belief that if sexuality is inherent, that somehow validates them as being right. In fact, it means nothing at all. Some people are born with brown hair, some people are born with an inclination toward pedophilia. Brown hair is perfectly okay, pedophilia is pure evil. If we are born being gay, it may be perfectly okay, it may not. That tells us nothing at all. Just because we are born with it, doesn't make it automatically okay. What makes it okay is that it is our choice and no one else has any say over it except us.

    I am not referring to any religious beliefs, I am talking about personal choice. I mean personal choice over sexuality, not sexual behavior. I have never even had sex or anything close, so I have no sexual behavior. I am talking about not allowing people to tell me who I am. I am a lesbian because I want to be, not because everyone insists that I have to be.




    If I felt offended, I would have said so. And of course you can say what you want. I meant you don't have any choice, authority, or even the right to have an opinion about some else's sexuality. You can have an opinion, but you may as well be telling them what kind of food they like. Your opinion could not possibly have any value or relevance as it applies to anyone's sexuality except your own. That is 100% within the authority of the person who's sexuality is being decided.

    Thank you for taking the time to understand the analogy about onions. You did not seriously read that and think I was actually just saying I like onions? I mean, it was a pretty simple analogy. I am not calling you dumb or anything, I just don't get how pretending to not understand my point, and making a sarcastic remark that does not address the point at all, somehow makes your argument any better...?
     
  12. CameOutSwinging

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    It sort of feels like the opposite is true. That a percentage of people chose to be straight. Not saying everybody makes that choice, because I think most everybody who simply is straight hasn't really had to think about it long and hard to realize it. Whereas for many of us who realize we're sexually attracted to the same sex at a young age, we spend time thinking that maybe this doesn't have to be the case and we can be straight instead. That seems to be a struggle for many and I'm honestly always impressed by people who identified that they were gay at an early age and had the strength to accept it and just let it be part of who they are.
     
  13. Funn

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    I mean, I could accept that some people have no say in the matter, particularly if they don't want one.

    I also agree with encouraging people to accept and be happy with who you are. I am not in any way saying we should encourage gay people to pretend to be straight. But I know some people that are suffering, not because they are being pressured to be straight, but because they do not want to be gay. Why should they have to be gay even if it makes them unhappy? That is unfair to them, and it is unfair to make them feel as though they have no choice.

    Even saying, "You can act straight, but you will never really be straight." Is kind of cruel, because it implies that they will have to live with that struggle for the rest of their life. Some might, I get that. But I have seen people change completely. There are stories about it all over the internet, and I have personally seen people change from straight to gay.

    I know the usual response to people claiming to change from one sexuality to another is disbelief. People say "They always end up turning back" or "The change wasn't real" or "They were just pressured to change by religious groups"... So who made you the authority on other people's lives? Isn't up to them to decide whether they have changed or not? Obviously if you spend twenty years as a homosexual, then decide to go on being straight, you will probably always have some attraction to the same gender. The same is true if you spend twenty years as an alcoholic, and then stop drinking. (No I am not saying that being gay is anything like being an alcoholic, that is clearly not my point). Just because you still have a habit of finding the same sex attractive, does not mean you are gay.

    A guy posted a thread on here just yesterday. He said that he is only attracted to straight women, except that he likes gay porn. He asked if he was gay or not. Who has the right to tell him that he absolutely must be gay if he finds men attractive? What if he doesn't want to find them attractive? Its his choice.
     
  14. Rydia

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    1) I didn't choose my sexuality
    2) We are just animals, we just think we're more specialer than the rest of them
    3) Being LGBT or anything else getting shoved under that umbrella does not make you a special snowflake, so if people are "choosing" to be whatever it is they say they are because they think it makes them special, I wish they'd just stop.
    4) "Pride" is different things to different people, but for me, it's not about being all "I'm a lesbian, so yay me!" but about supporting other people who are going through the same things I have gone through.
    5) If you fall in love with a man, then I find it far more likely that you were either bi or straight from the start than you suddenly switched teams

    If it makes you feel better about yourself to tell yourself that you chose to be a lesbian, then go for it, but don't expect other people to agree with you when that hasn't been their experience at all or to respond well to others suggesting they could just choose to be straight if they wanted to, particularly when a lot of us has been through a lot of not so special times in our lives because of who we are.
     
  15. Funn

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    Thanks for assuming I have never had any kind of struggle due to who I am.

    There are some very clear distinctions between humans, and everything else on Earth. We are obviously not just animals.

    I never said anything about being a special snowflake. Not sure where you even came up with that. Being gay is not something you have any rights to. Anyone can be gay for any reason, even if they only want to feel special. it isn't a club.

    You don't have any say in whether someone is lesbian, gay, bi, straight... only the person that applies to can have any valid input about it at all. There are no teams. Especially not if you really believe you were born that way. Are there right and left-handed teams? Blue and green eye teams? If you were born gay, then you are just a victim of circumstance.

    It does make me feel better, thank you.

    I never asked anyone to agree with me. I never asked anyone to give me any certain kind of reaction. Are you asking me to give you a certain kind of reaction or agree with you? You are just making your own point. I think I said multiple times that this is what I believe, and that I have no issues with anyone else believing anything they want. What bothers me is being made to feel stupid for believing something different. That is bigotry. That is something we aught to be combating here, not supporting.

    Going through hard times does not have anything to do with whether you could choose not to be gay. If you were forced to be gay, then went through those hard times, it was all for nothing. You had no say in it anyways and you were fighting for something you had no control over. If you chose to be gay, you were fighting for your right to be who you want. That is how I see it, see it any way you wish.
     
  16. CameOutSwinging

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    That last piece is part of the breakdown in that way of thinking, though. We don't control who we find attractive. I truly believe that. Call it nature or nurture, but ultimately who we find attractive seems to be instinct. You look at somebody and they're attractive or they're not. So you can't really make the decision that you're not going to find someone attractive if you naturally do. You can choose to ignore it and not act upon it, but ultimately you can't control the basic function of physical attraction.

    I understand what you're trying to say because it is a question I ask myself a lot. On paper, every arrow points to me being gay. But I am with a woman, who I love, and part of me truly does not want to leave her just to "go be gay." I enjoy sex with her at times, and an emotional connection. We have many other relationship issues to work through, but that is an aside. That said, denying my attraction to men doesn't work for me. Now, if we stay together, can I choose to be monogamous with her and not sleep with men? Totally. Can I be happy with that? Only time will tell. Are a lot of people who make that choice happy while living in it? Some are, some are not. But I do not want to deny who I am or not be open about who I am, regardless of the relationship I am in. That is part of the struggle we are having. And I can't blame her for not necessarily wanting to be with somebody who openly admits he's sexually attracted to men and not women. That's the part that is her choice.

    We get too hung up on labels. The fact that you find the same gender sexually attractive simply means you find the same gender sexually attractive. What you choose to do with that is up to you, but many people report years of depression and sadness about choosing to be straight in this scenario. Others have different experiences. As the old phrase goes, your mileage may vary.

    Personally, I don't know that I'd be happy forever never having a relationship with a man again, particularly sexual. But that's part of the many things I need to work out for myself one way or the other.
     
  17. Rydia

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    I really don't think they can. Anyone can claim to be gay or whatever the flavor of the month is with "orientation" but that doesn't mean they actually are.

    This idea that everyone just gets decide I'm gay or I'm straight or I'm whatever makes it sound a lot more like a "club" than the idea that either you're attracted to people of the same gender or the opposite or both or you're not.

    I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay or bi or trans or asexual or whatever, as long as you aren't hurting anyone else and if it were a choice, I'd be all for people having the right to choose it, however I think there is a lot more evidence that suggests that for the vast majority of people it is not a choice than there is that supports your theory that it is.

    In addition, this idea that most people could just decide OK, I'm tired of being gay or it's too hard or whatever, so now I'll be something else is imo a damaging message to put out there for the majority of people who simply do not actually have that choice. It's the sort of message that keeps people in closets and reparative therapy programs and straight relationships they aren't happy in.

    If you want to push an "it's OK to be gay" message, I'll all for it, but I'm not gonna hop on the the, "if you're not happy just choose to be something else" wagon.
     
  18. Euler

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    It is a bold statement you are making Funn. The evidence you offer is not particularly convincing. (Ie someone claims they chose to go from straight to gay, they might have been in denial or plainly lied to you as well as telling the truth. However, we cannot tell those three options from each other so this testimonial is useless.)

    Choice would imply a conscious process where you decide that today I am straight or gay or anything in the between. If that is the case, could you tell us, how to choose to be straight. I'm sure there are number of people on this forum who would love to know that.

    Having said that I must also agree with you to some extent. There is considerable scientific evidence that being gay is at least partially dependent on genetics and hormonal conditions in the womb. However, that is not to say that it is the entire truth. Environmental and social factors in principle could play a role what our sexual identity in the end becomes.

    Considering the fact neural interconnections and sizes of different cell material in brain play a role in shaping our personality and memories I would not be at all surprised if it was at least in principle possible through appropriate chemical, surgical or other therapeutic means to rewire our brains and change our sexuality as well as any other personality trait. However, at the moment there is absolutely zero evidence that this is possible or that any currently available "conversion therapy" would be effective.

    Finally, humans are animals. We are more sophisticated than any other known species but we are still animals. God did not create us and we occupy no special place in any imaginary cosmic order. We are subject to various needs, urges and impulses just like any other animals. However, unlike most animals we have much greater control over our behavior but we cannot control the impulses.
     
  19. Eveline

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    I would recommend watching the film Prayers for Bobby. (I think it is on Youtube) It is a true story of a child who grew up in a religious family and his family did everything in their power to persuade him to stop 'choosing' to be gay because they believed he would go to hell if he didn't. It gives entries from his diary that show the internal conflict and self hatred that his family instilled in him. (Prepare yourself to cry a lot. :icon_sad:slight_smile:

    (*hug*)

    Eveline
     
    #19 Eveline, Feb 3, 2016
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  20. Bibliovian

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    This is a super interesting debate! I don't know that any side has a tremendous amount of science to back it up. I hadn't seen any empirical evidence, and I'm sure there is som out there on this topic. And much like you, OP, I have likened sexual attraction to preferences such as tastes in food or music...but I'm not sure they are a choice either.

    Yes they change over time, yes it's fluid, as I feel like sexuality is sometimes. But sometimes those preferences are STRONG and either way, it's never been a conscious choice for me. I hate the taste of beer, I couldn't convince myself otherwise because it would still taste like urine to me. Likewise, I do not fancy sex with dudes. Is that to say certain beers wouldn't trickle in (Hi! Root Beer ales...)? Surely No. Is that say a guy with specific characteristics could tickle my fancy? The possibility exists.

    The difficulty for me is labeling it a choice. Because if I had a choice, certainly I wouldn't have ended my ten year relationship and marriage. I would have found a way to enjoy sex with a man, that man, and not hurt people I cared deeply for and become homeless. CERTAINLY I would have chosen to make the last year of my life less of a hellscape.

    If it's a choice to be gay, then I could choose to be straight. But I tried. I'm not. Much to many people's disappointment. I think it's more of a preference, different people have stronger or weaker preferences, some happen to change over time. But not one I have control over.