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Old 6th Jul 2012, 03:20 AM   #1
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Default The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

Hi everyone my name is John and I am new here just found this site doing a simple google search. Sorry for my really long post but I need to get this out there. Looking to see if anyone else in here happens to be gay and Christian. I feel so left out and alone. I am out to all my friends and family pretty much. The only ones in my family who support me are my parents and my sister who is 10 years younger then me.

But I was raised in a very Christian home where "what the bible says goes." So after so many years (13 to be exact) of me trying to change myself and praying this away and asking God to help me stop being gay nothing has helped me. It is enough that I had to put this on my parents shoulders like some sort of weight. They never wanted to accept me. That was until my mom realized the large number of sins the bible says that people sweep under the rug. So finally they accepted me about a year close to a year and a half ago.

All my friends are fine with it and said they love me the same no matter who I love or go out with. But me? I am the only one who cannot accept myself. Even the bible says in 1st Corinthians that gays will not inherit Gods kingdom. It says in Romans that God gave up Sodom for "unnatural" lusts. How can I accept myself when the bible says what I am doing is wrong and an abomination in the eyes of God? I even tried all them gay Christian websites and not one of them has been able to successfully convince me that being gay is ok.

I read into all them sites and did not feel it in my heart almost as if something was missing. But I guess God must be busy cause I sure as hec pray everyday (I try to) but he does not take this away or respond to my prayers. Sometimes I want to give up on him but I don't because I know that is not the best thing to do. If your gay and Christian please I need your help desperately

Regards- John
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 03:40 AM   #2
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

I'm not religious, but my advice would be this. Homosexuality isn't mentioned by Jesus. Not once. Most references to homosexuality in the bible come from the old testament and are side my side with things that nobody follows anymore (do you wear clothes with mixed fibers? Or eat seafood? Or for that matter stone your children if they're disrespectful to you?)

I have no problem with religion in general, but it is what you make of it. Having read the bible all the way through (just out of curiosity) I think that the teachings of Jesus are are about love, tolerance and understanding. Some people choose to make religion into hellfire and brimstone, are use the bible to spread hate and bigotry; some make it into a way to live your life in the best way you can. You're not going to be turned straight; it doesn't happen (it's been proven that 'therapy' that claims to do that actually causes deep psychological trauma). At the end of the day, you know more than anyone this is something that cannot be helped, that this is something that IS natural.

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And Mercy, Pity, Peace, and Love
Is Man, his child and care.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 03:43 AM   #3
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

May I say in the first Corinthians it says "Homosexual Perverts", and that is just a mistranslation of the original word, which was a man who raped angels (Good prople). So it did not actually mean Homosexuality was bad, it meant a man who gives his lusts to another that doesn't accept. Say I am making it up if you will, but I know this because in my family I have 3 bibles I know about, two English and one written in Latin (very antique).
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 04:05 AM   #4
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

Thank you both for answering my post here. Yes Kerze Jesus taught about love and not hate. He taught about many things. The old testament no longer applies for anyone because I was taught that Jesus came to fulfill that law and when he died the law had been fulfilled which is why no one can use that verse to condemn gays. That is where it becomes difficult. I know Jesus teaches about love but one thing I keep getting is that people say Jesus wants us to love the sinner not the sin. That is where I got stuck because we all sin yes but I don't know. I guess Christians make this into such a big deal that it scares the hell out of me and I just don't know how to live my life in peace. This is why I separated from the church a year and a half ago because there are no gay friendly churches in the area.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2012 at 04:07 AM ----------

As for the 1st Corinthians may I just add well the bible seems to be always mistranslated. Christians just do not see that and for every verse I use to try and prove why being gay is ok they find one to back me down as to why it is wrong. They say God made Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve and when I ask how do you figure they go and say to read Genisis and find out for myself. Even God was so angry he destroyed a large number of gay cities in the bible. I am trying to make the best of this but the Christians keep up with their judgement and hate that this becomes hard
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 05:29 AM   #5
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

I'm brand new here but share your dilemma. I'm a preacher's a "kid", attended a christian college, was a worship leader in church for eight years and was married to a christian man. After we separated and began divorce proceedings, the 'secret' i'd desperately tried to hide from myself for so many years wouldn't remain hidden any longer. While i'm not out yet, my biggest struggle has been trying to reconcile my faith (and my family's faith) with being gay.

Some resources that provided a good beginning for me included (do a search for them) "The Gay Christian Network" and "Soulforce." Look for a page/piece called "What the bible does and doesn't say about homosexuality" via Soulforce. It's written by Mel White, a gay clergyman. Neither place tries to give you all the answers but they were very helpful starting places for me as I dug into this very issue.

I hope this helps in some small way.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2012 at 05:37 AM ----------

p.s. regarding the issue of "Adam and Eve" - from a strictly christian world view, there are numerous things that came into existence after 'the fall' that are covered by grace. In God's original plan one-man-one-woman might have been the ideal. But post-snake-and-apple we have intersexed individuals who would not fall into the one man/one woman paradigm as outlined in genesis. Are they ignored or unloved by god? are they outliers? No Way. Would Down's Syndrome (an extra chromosome) have existed pre-fall? I doubt it but is someone with Down's Syndrome unloved by God and outside the reach of grace? Heck no.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 05:46 AM   #6
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

A reconciling church in Manchester, CT:
Emanuel Lutheran Church: The Church that Love Builds / Welcome / Welcome All

Even if it's a little out of the way for you, it's probably worth it. And you're pretty sure to meet some other gay Christians there.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 05:59 AM   #7
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

There are only about 6 verses in the Bible that are misinterpreted by fundamentalists to make it look like God is against gay people. That is heresy. Reading the Bible like a sex manual or a life instruction book is NOT the way to gain knowledge from it. Remember, the Old Testament is a Bronze Age document and HAS to be interpreted for the modern world.... if we truly are "an abomination", then polyester/cotton clothes, ham, shrimp, and having a menstrual period are, too. Same with the New Testament.... it has to be interpreted in the light of the words of Christ. Paul said a couple of things that look like anti-homosexuality, but we don't worship Paul. Jesus said not one single thing on the subject directly but he did make a remark to the disciples about "eunuchs who were born that way" that some interpret as a positive thing (sorry, can't remember chapter and verse ATM).

What you have to remember as a Christian is that the overwhelming message of the Scriptures is love. In the Old Testament, the Law was given strictly to prove that we imperfect humans cannot be perfect and to pave the way for Christ's sacrifice and fulfilment of the Law. And when Christ came, he said that when he was lifted up (on the cross) he would draw ALL unto himself. Not just Christians, not just straight people... ALL. God loves you every bit as much as he loves straight people and your "sin" is no worse or better than anyone else's. We are imperfect but that doesn't matter. If you have a heart for God, then keep the greatest commandment - to love God with all your heart soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself.... pay attention to that "as yourself" part, it's the most important of all. God makes no mistakes, you are His beloved child. Sorry I'm not that much of a biblical scholar but I've been through the same struggles, and am in the process of working through them. You can too.... best of luck!!!
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 06:34 AM   #8
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

John,

I know exactly what you are going through. I was raised in Christian fundamentalism and my family is still deeply involved in that environment full of prejudice. You are hardly alone. There is a movie I want you to watch called “For the BIBLE tells me so” by Daniel Karslake. It is a documentary which reconciles homosexuality and Biblical scripture and follows the stories of several families that were facing the same issues you and I are struggling with. It is an excellent movie and I think it will help you as it did me. Please let me know if you watch it as I would be interested in hearing your opinion.

David
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 07:27 AM   #9
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by LStew31 View Post
I'm brand new here but share your dilemma. I'm a preacher's a "kid", attended a christian college, was a worship leader in church for eight years and was married to a christian man. After we separated and began divorce proceedings, the 'secret' i'd desperately tried to hide from myself for so many years wouldn't remain hidden any longer. While i'm not out yet, my biggest struggle has been trying to reconcile my faith (and my family's faith) with being gay.

Some resources that provided a good beginning for me included (do a search for them) "The Gay Christian Network" and "Soulforce." Look for a page/piece called "What the bible does and doesn't say about homosexuality" via Soulforce. It's written by Mel White, a gay clergyman. Neither place tries to give you all the answers but they were very helpful starting places for me as I dug into this very issue.

I hope this helps in some small way.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2012 at 05:37 AM ----------

p.s. regarding the issue of "Adam and Eve" - from a strictly christian world view, there are numerous things that came into existence after 'the fall' that are covered by grace. In God's original plan one-man-one-woman might have been the ideal. But post-snake-and-apple we have intersexed individuals who would not fall into the one man/one woman paradigm as outlined in genesis. Are they ignored or unloved by god? are they outliers? No Way. Would Down's Syndrome (an extra chromosome) have existed pre-fall? I doubt it but is someone with Down's Syndrome unloved by God and outside the reach of grace? Heck no.

yes I wanted to thank you for the response here my dear. The issue is I have already been there and done all that and by that I mean everything you posted here I have been struggling with this for years and years my dear. These were some of the very same websites I had looked at months ago and have been looking at for weeks. They were non convincing to me. If they were I would not feel the need to post about it here or have made this account in the first place. I appreciate you directing me to the sites but even in then I read what they had to say and did not feel it. I felt they lacked certain proof and when I was praying I did not feel peace about it so I have to keep searching I suppose but I appreciate the response with the sources though it means a lot to see others who relate to my life here.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2012 at 07:30 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ianthe View Post
A reconciling church in Manchester, CT:
Emanuel Lutheran Church: The Church that Love Builds / Welcome / Welcome All

Even if it's a little out of the way for you, it's probably worth it. And you're pretty sure to meet some other gay Christians there.

I appreciate the response with the church. I will take a look and see if I can find a church near by that is under that denomination. The issue I am currently having is that I don't think going to church would make a difference. See I am like a 4 year old who refuses to eat his vegetables. No matter what you do you cannot convince that child to eat his veggies. I am the same way with the bible. Having been brainwashed it does not matter what gay friendly church I go to I am pretty much stuck on the belief that being gay is a sin and wrong because of what I was taught to believe all my life. Now that my parents are trying to finally be "good parents" I feel the damage has been done and even though they support me all these years of neglect have left me unable to accept myself. Meeting others just like me is great but not so sure what they could say to convince me of anything seeing as how all these years of brainwash from Christians saying my life would send me to hell is not really much of anything positive to convince me otherwise.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2012 at 07:41 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippa View Post
There are only about 6 verses in the Bible that are misinterpreted by fundamentalists to make it look like God is against gay people. That is heresy. Reading the Bible like a sex manual or a life instruction book is NOT the way to gain knowledge from it. Remember, the Old Testament is a Bronze Age document and HAS to be interpreted for the modern world.... if we truly are "an abomination", then polyester/cotton clothes, ham, shrimp, and having a menstrual period are, too. Same with the New Testament.... it has to be interpreted in the light of the words of Christ. Paul said a couple of things that look like anti-homosexuality, but we don't worship Paul. Jesus said not one single thing on the subject directly but he did make a remark to the disciples about "eunuchs who were born that way" that some interpret as a positive thing (sorry, can't remember chapter and verse ATM).

What you have to remember as a Christian is that the overwhelming message of the Scriptures is love. In the Old Testament, the Law was given strictly to prove that we imperfect humans cannot be perfect and to pave the way for Christ's sacrifice and fulfilment of the Law. And when Christ came, he said that when he was lifted up (on the cross) he would draw ALL unto himself. Not just Christians, not just straight people... ALL. God loves you every bit as much as he loves straight people and your "sin" is no worse or better than anyone else's. We are imperfect but that doesn't matter. If you have a heart for God, then keep the greatest commandment - to love God with all your heart soul and mind, and your neighbor as yourself.... pay attention to that "as yourself" part, it's the most important of all. God makes no mistakes, you are His beloved child. Sorry I'm not that much of a biblical scholar but I've been through the same struggles, and am in the process of working through them. You can too.... best of luck!!!
Thank you. Sometimes it is hard to remember this and we forget Jesus taught us to love one another not hate anyone. The understanding many Christians give me today is that Jesus says to love the sinner not the sin. They say the difference between my sins and theirs is that yes we all sin but they try to tell me (Christians say this) that I am choosing to sin because I know being gay is a sin but I act on the sin while as they recognize their sins and seek forgiveness while I on the other hand do not do that. But I always try to show people love and I always remind them that they need to love one another just as Jesus has instructed us and I always try to put God first in everything that I do. Hopefully one day God can see the good I do and answer one of my prayers so I can know he is answering me at least.

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2012 at 07:44 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by tennbad70 View Post
John,

I know exactly what you are going through. I was raised in Christian fundamentalism and my family is still deeply involved in that environment full of prejudice. You are hardly alone. There is a movie I want you to watch called “For the BIBLE tells me so” by Daniel Karslake. It is a documentary which reconciles homosexuality and Biblical scripture and follows the stories of several families that were facing the same issues you and I are struggling with. It is an excellent movie and I think it will help you as it did me. Please let me know if you watch it as I would be interested in hearing your opinion.

David
Hi David thanks for responding. Just wanted to say nice to have someone who directly relates to what I am going through and to know I am not alone here. About the movie I already saw it about a week ago. I am telling you I have tried just about everything you can think of to just accept myself and not one thing has helped. I have seen all sorts of movies about acceptance and the bible to going on all sorts of gay Christian sites and not one thing has worked. It is like my brain is stuck and wont move forward so I am stuck on the thought that I must be sinning. It sucks to be honest.

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Old 6th Jul 2012, 07:45 AM   #10
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

I didn't really read all of the responses above, but I can share how I feel, and I hope it helps-- I don't want to push my beliefs on you or anything, but this is just what I feel--
In Leviticus (18), homosexuality is an "abomination," right? Later on, it says it applies to Israelites and foreigners living among them, which I don't. Also, it only mentions sex, not love-- in the Bible (I can't remember where), I think it says "From love sin cannot be born."
As for Corinthians/other Pauline Letters, Paul grew up a Jew, with that mindset of Leviticus. These weren't stories to be written verbatim by God, but they were morals of Paul in his interpretation of faith. Just because that's how Paul felt, doesn't necessarily mean it's the only way to see things with a basis in Christ.
Well.... That's about it...
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 07:57 AM   #11
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by QueVidaLaMia View Post
I didn't really read all of the responses above, but I can share how I feel, and I hope it helps-- I don't want to push my beliefs on you or anything, but this is just what I feel--
In Leviticus (18), homosexuality is an "abomination," right? Later on, it says it applies to Israelites and foreigners living among them, which I don't. Also, it only mentions sex, not love-- in the Bible (I can't remember where), I think it says "From love sin cannot be born."
As for Corinthians/other Pauline Letters, Paul grew up a Jew, with that mindset of Leviticus. These weren't stories to be written verbatim by God, but they were morals of Paul in his interpretation of faith. Just because that's how Paul felt, doesn't necessarily mean it's the only way to see things with a basis in Christ.
Well.... That's about it...
It says in Matthew 19:4-6

4. And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, 5. And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6. Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Generally what I do is follow the teachings of Jesus Christ and those verses I posted above are the words of Jesus Christ saying a man is to be with a woman? I am trying to live my life out for Jesus. The fact that he seemed to be completely silent on homosexual relationships as we see them today is not really helping me when all I read is him saying a man to be with a woman.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 10:32 AM   #12
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

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Hi David thanks for responding. Just wanted to say nice to have someone who directly relates to what I am going through and to know I am not alone here. About the movie I already saw it about a week ago. I am telling you I have tried just about everything you can think of to just accept myself and not one thing has helped. I have seen all sorts of movies about acceptance and the bible to going on all sorts of gay Christian sites and not one thing has worked. It is like my brain is stuck and wont move forward so I am stuck on the thought that I must be sinning. It sucks to be honest.

John, in that case I would recommend working with a licensed therapist who works with lgbt issues. The situation you are in is very common and it can be difficult to get over without some help. Also I found a pastor at a gay friendly church that was willing to talk with me for awhile (that's how I got the movie). I find many of theses pastors are very familiar with that fundamentalist background and some even come from it. If you feel you have reached the end of the rope by yourself, this is probably the next step. Just research a therapist carefully and maybe see a couple for an initial consultation.

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Old 6th Jul 2012, 11:45 AM   #13
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

Hey John. Welcome to EC

I've shared this website a few other times here on EC, but it's really helped me, and I hope it helps you.

Soulforce » What the Bible Says–and Doesn’t Say–About Homosexuality
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 12:05 PM   #14
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

David-
Yes I was actually just thinking for a while here about your comment and I think that might be a good idea. I would have to look around and seek gay friendly therapists and try and see if one of them can help me with my acceptance issue. Christian religion does a number on people but I am just tired of the sleepless nights and crying myself to sleep asking God to change me or answer me only for me to spend the night not being heard. So therapy seems like the better solution I suppose. Thanks.[/QUOTE]

---------- Post added 6th Jul 2012 at 12:08 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by SkyDiver View Post
Hey John. Welcome to EC

I've shared this website a few other times here on EC, but it's really helped me, and I hope it helps you.

Soulforce » What the Bible Says–and Doesn’t Say–About Homosexuality
Yes thanks I seen that same website weeks ago. I have been brainwashed. It is useless because religion has brainwashed me as a Christian so now no matter what I look at it seems not one thing will help me. I seen this website you posted a few weeks ago and after reading what was written I was not convinced so I ended up dismissing it. If it was not for all these years of guilt and shame I would not be here asking for help now. But thanks for the welcome I appreciate it.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 12:22 PM   #15
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

Hey John, welcome to Empty Closets.

What you're dealing with is extremely common, and I think it's something that every LGBT person whose been raised Christian goes through at one time or another. I personally went through the same experience. I spent years growing up trying to pray myself straight. When that didn't work, I tried to pray myself bisexual. When that didn't work, I felt that God had abandoned me and I became suicidal. I attempted suicide several times.

It was a very difficult time in my life. It ultimately led me on a quest to study the Bible and its teachings. I needed to understand for my personal sanity. Although I am no longer a Christian as a result of that long journey, I can share with you what I learned along the way. It might prove helpful to your own peace of mind.

I could, of course, address each passage individually. However, I'm sure that in your own search you've seen people trying to justify or explain them. That isn't helpful to you, so let me take the most direct approach possible.

-------------------------------
POINT ONE: THE BIBLE SAYS NOTHING ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY

This may be confusing to understand because of what you've been taught. However, it is rather easy to grasp once it is explained.

There are passages in the Bible that talk about same-gender sexual acts. These acts are indeed condemned. However, when you are reading ANYTHING - whether it's the Bible or something someone else has written - you have to read it in the context that it was intended. To do that you have to understand the perspective of the individual doing the writing.

To understand the individual passages in the Bible dealing with same-gender sexual acts you have to understand the culture and context in which they were written. This is a very easy thing to do even without cracking open a history book on ancient Jewish traditions, beliefs, customs, and laws.

How do I know this? Because homosexuality wasn't understood until modern times. The word homosexual didn't even exist until around 1870, and it was introduced by a German psychologist. This was the very beginning of our modern understanding of homosexuality.

We understand homosexuality to be a separate orientation from that of heterosexuality. In other words, we do not consider them to be the same thing. All creditable science points to the fact that you do not choose to be a homosexual, and that it is something that you are born with - that means it isn't a choice. It's something you have no control over.

If you look at history as a whole, you'll see that same-gender sexual relations have been viewed differently throughout time. Some cultures have idolized same-gender relations. Some have condemned them. None of them, however, understood them as we do.

How did the various authors of the Bible view homosexuality? Well, it's easy to understand if you view Biblical passages in full. In most cases what you are going to find is that same-gender sexual relations are talked about in the context of idolatry. There is an important reason for this.

That reason is because they didn't view homosexuality as a separate sexual orientation. To try to give understanding to their world view from our modern eyes, they looked at everyone as being completely straight. There was no such thing as homosexuality.

The Bible, as a whole, isn't a very pro-sexuality document. However, it spends an overwhelming amount of its time attacking straight people. Not gay people. Of course it would do so, since it didn't know homosexuality even existed.

When they saw someone engaged in same-gender sexual activity, they viewed it exactly as they'd view something like adultery. (And if you actually read the Bible you'll realize just what a dim view they had of adultery.) If it was taking place among Jews, it didn't help much because the individuals were likely married to someone of the opposite sex. Of course, all marriages were arranged by families, so the individuals in question had no choice. The concept of marrying someone you love is a rather modern concept.

People who engaged in same-gender sexual acts were in their minds overwhelmed with lust. In their minds such individuals must be possessed by some sort of lust-demon, because having sex with just the opposite gender was no longer enough, they had to have sex with both genders! They were out of control!

Same-gender sexual relations, in their eyes, was just an excessive amount of sexual lust. You weren't going to have sex with just one gender (the same gender), but both genders, and you were going to do that because you were out of control.

This is where idolatry comes into play. They were making the argument that this excessive amount of lust was caused by the sin of idolatry.

To understand what this means, this is the equivalent of the Bible saying the world is flat, and that a mental disorder such as schizophrenia is caused by demonic possession. This is the way the people of the time viewed their world. It's not a flaw, it's ignorance - a lack of understanding and of knowledge.

We are no longer ignorant. We understand that there is a difference between heterosexuality and homosexuality. We understand that homosexuality is not a result of an excessive amount of lust.

As I said previously, the Bible as a whole takes a dark view on sexuality in general. This is a byproduct of the extremely misogynistic culture of the time. Women were viewed, largely, as extremely unclean and impure individuals. Thus, having sex with a woman risks her tainting you with her impurity. You see this in the extreme purification rituals required for women, particularly when they're menstruating.

There was, of course, a huge diversity of views among the Jews of that time, different sects, and not all of them promoted exactly the same ideas. Jesus was of a different sect (it's still being debated which one) than the more mainstream Jewish sects of the time. However, as a whole the culture could be viewed through a similar lens as that of the modern day Taliban when it comes to issues around women.

Since they viewed sexual orientation only through the lens of everyone being heterosexual they take a dark view of sexuality in general. It's unclear exactly how they'd feel about male-male sexuality if they viewed homosexuality as something separate entirely, and most importantly, natural in human nature.

Other cultures that had similar extremely misogynistic views toward women elevated male-male sexual relations over that of male-female. An example of this is ancient Greek culture. They viewed male-male love as superior to that of male-female love. They held this view because they viewed women as inferior.

What is important to understand, though is that it is all rooted in misogynistic thinking. It is the belief that anything "feminine" (or women in general) is weak, bad, corrupt, or tainted. We obviously no longer hold those views.

-------------------------------
POINT TWO: THERE IS A LOGICAL FLAW IN THE ARGUMENT

Even if you accept their premise that being homosexual is wrong, you have to view it in the context of what we know and understand. You have to view it in the context of what it actually means.

It is established fact, not belief - fact - that gay people do not choose to be gay. This is not a choice. We also know that homosexuality exists in other species outside of humans. It is prevalent in nature.

If you are a Christian then you believe that God created the universe. You believe that God created you. You believe that God created the animals.

If God created those things, and he believed that homosexuality was wrong, why would he create them gay in the first place?

To hold the belief that homosexuality is wrong, you must believe that God created you as a homosexual simply to punish you for being a homosexual.

If you hold this view then it is an attack against the very benevolence of God himself. Holding this view is a statement that says: God is not a benevolent deity. He created you simply to punish you.

If God is not a benevolent deity, then there are much larger problems than whether or not being a homosexual is a sin. We are all, to put it bluntly, fucked.

However, if you believe God to be a benevolent deity, then this is not possible. You could not be created simply to be punished.

This is the logical flaw of viewing homosexuality as a sin. It is not a choice. It is no different than saying someone who is left handed is evil by their very nature, and by the way, there was a time when people actually believed exactly that. It is no different than if you were to say someone born with blue eyes is sinful by their very nature. It is no different than if you were to say someone born with dark skin is evil by their very nature.

None of those things are choices. Therefore, in order to be innately sinful, God would have had to create them sinful by their very nature. He would have had to have created them simply to punish them, and if that is the case then God could not be a benevolent deity.
-------------------------------

POINT THREE: ALWAYS QUESTION THE SOURCE

The whole argument starts with the premise, "Is there something wrong with me? Are my feelings sinful?"

Before you questioned yourself, you should have questioned the individuals who told you that you were sinful or evil. As I've pointed out, their views are neither rooted in scripture nor logic.

They could not be rooted in scripture, because the Bible is silent on homosexuality. It does not view it as we understand it today. We would not, for example, view someone who suffers from a mental disorder such as schizophrenia as being possessed by a demon.

They could not be rooted in logic, because if their logic is correct, then God is not a benevolent deity.

So what exactly is this belief rooted in if not scripture or logic? How did it come to be? The simple answer is that it is rooted in bigotry.

People who hold this view, rather than approaching the Bible with an open mind, have approached it with preexisting beliefs. They then turned to the scripture to justify those beliefs.

In order to do that they've had to wrench a handful of sentences out of their proper context. And let me be very clear here, these are a handful of sentences - these are passing mentions. As I am sure you know, it wasn't even something Jesus thought important enough to mention, though if you listen to many modern Christians you'd think being anti-gay was the very foundation upon which Christendom was built.

They believe that they can use religion as a shield. It allows them to justify their preexisting beliefs. If they didn't hide behind religion, they'd hide behind something else, perhaps cultural traditions or pseudo-science. The worst of them know that they hate gay people, and believe that by using religion as a shield it protects them from the consequences of holding those views. Hiding behind religion they can say, "I'm just following the word of God!" Hiding behind cultural traditions they could say, "I'm just defending our cultural heritage!" Hiding behind pseudo-science they could say, "I didn't invent the science!"

In the end, regardless of the shield they pick up, the root is always the same. It is bigotry. The word bigotry might be a loaded word in some peoples minds, but it does not always have to be overt. It can be subtle. It doesn't even mean the person made a conscious choice to be a bigot, you can be raised a bigot and hold those views as a result of your culture. Bigotry and ignorance often go hand-in-hand.

It is also not to paint people with some broad brush. People can change their views, and the truth of the matter is many people who hold this view, when forced to confront it (for example when a parent learns their child is gay), realizes how wrong it is and changes it. When their views are challenged, they must question them, and when bigoted views are revealed to be what they truly are it becomes difficult to defend or accept them.

These accusations may sound hollow to your ears. That is fine. You do not have to believe that it is rooted in bigotry. Call it ignorance. Call it whatever makes you feel comfortable, but in the end it does not change the fact that their very actions defy the will of God.

As I said, they take a handful of sentences which they wrench out of context to condemn you. If they can take a handful of sentences to condemn you, then they might be well advised to first examine themselves.

Matthew 7:1-5
Judging Others
"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.


Jesus makes clear here in Matthew 7:1-5 that no Christian is to judge someone else unworthy, because they themselves are not without sin. And if any Christian does judge someone else, then the consequence of that is that they will be judged in return by the very same measure that they used to judge the other person.

Therefore, if they judge you as unworthy, sinful, and evil they will be judged accordingly.

Matthew 7:7-12
Ask, Seek, Knock
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.

"Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.


This is the very foundation upon which Christianity is built. It is the foundation stone of the New Covenant. Here, Jesus clears away the old laws by summing them up as follows: "do to others what you would have them do to you."

Jesus did not say, "Ask for salvation, but first you must be completely straight before it is given to you." No, he said "Ask and it will be given to you." There is no precondition.

He wipes away all the preconditions to finding God and salvation. All you have to do is ask. And the key here is that there are no preconditions. So, if someone were to say to you that you cannot be both Christian and gay, then they are creating a precondition that does not exist.

Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow and Wide Gates
"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Here Jesus warns the faithful against taking the easy road, the road that EVERYONE else is currently walking on. Those who truly find God are those who swim against the tide, not with it. This is why Jesus spends most of his time with outcasts, precisely because they are not following the same path as everyone else. By virtue of being outcasts - they can't, that gate is closed to them and they must follow the narrow path, and he provides them with that path.

Matthew 7:15-20
True and False Prophets
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Here Jesus is making it ABSOLUTELY clear how to measure anything that anyone has ever said that claims to be from the desires of God. Thus, the simple question: "Does it bear good fruit or bad fruit?"

When someone says that homosexuality is sinful, you don't even have to debate them on the merits. Simply ask that question. Does that teaching bear good fruit or bad?

Well let's examine it. We know that teaching that homosexuality is wrong harms gay people; it causes anxiety, social isolation, fear, depression, and in some cases leads to both attempted and successful suicide. The act itself, when consensual, doesn't harm the individuals involved. Allowing the act without condemnation does not directly impact anyone outside the individuals in the relationship, a relationship which would provide them with fulfillment and happiness. So, based upon this measure given by Jesus, I'd say condemning gay people produces some pretty rotten fruit. I see absolutely no good coming from it at all, only bad things, so it's not even a gray area.

That's it. You don't even need to go any further than that. This alone answers your question, because it is the measure upon which all teachings are judged. However, let's just keep going for the sake of it.

Matthew 7:21-23
True and False Disciples
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Here Jesus makes clear that just because someone claims to be a faithful person, a servant of God, that does not magically make them a good person. Even if they seem to follow the letter of the law, they are missing the very spirit of it.

Think of all the so-called Christians who condemn you for being gay, who endlessly display their faith. How many of the very people who spit upon you, who condemn you for being gay, stand tall and display their own so-called piety publicly? How many LOVE to tell you how pious they are, how righteous they are, and just how great Christians they are - compared to you.

Well, Jesus had already spoke about those folks back in Chapter 6 of the Gospel of Matthew.

Matthew 6:1-4
Giving to the Needy
"Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.

"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.


Matthew 6:5-8
Prayer
"And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

So, what is it with all this hiding your faith? This is one of my favorite parts of the Gospels. It seems that this has been skipped by so many Christians, and it is easy to understand why once you understand the reason behind it.

You see, when they make public displays of righteousness and piety in front of others, they are - more often than not - actually worshiping the people they're praying before - not to God. Why? How can this be? Because their acts of righteousness are not genuine, it's to be recognized by OTHER people for THEIR piety, THEIR righteousness. In so doing, they are not serving God, they are serving themselves.

And as Jesus said, they have already received their reward in full, and will have no reward from their Father in heaven.

Pretty much the entirety of Chapter 6 of the Gospel of Matthew is dedicated to this theme.

Stop and think about this for a moment.

Here are people telling you that you are evil and sinful, and to do this they hunt down obscure remote passages of the Bible which they then wrench out of context to promote an already preexisting belief. However, these same people ALWAYS - let me repeat myself here - ALWAYS neglect an entire chapter out of one of the Gospels that is directed at them.

What does it say about them? What does it say about someone when they're so eager to condemn and judge you, when they cannot even be bothered to follow their own Messiah's unambiguous instructions? What does it say about them?

These people are not Christians. They are bullies. When they condemn you, they are not condemning you, but rather they are condemning themselves. Jesus said exactly this in Matthew 7:1-5 when he talked about Judging Others.

When they condemn you what they are actually doing is displaying their piety. They want to tell you how righteous they are, how much "better" of a Christian they are than you, and they do this like all bullies, because on the inside they feel inadequate. They can only feel strong and powerful by pulling you down. They want YOU to feel small so that THEY feel big.

You may be wondering what Jesus means when he says phrases like "do not be like the hypocrites" - you might be asking - "Who are these hypocrites he's talking about?"

He's talking about the religious people of his day. Pretty much the ENTIRETY of the Gospel is dedicated to attacking the faithful. Jesus wasn't bothering the pagans or the Romans. He set his sites squarely on his fellow faithful. And he spent the bulk of his time condemning them both directly and indirectly. Directly, by calling them hypocrites, and indirectly by instructing them how to be proper faithful.

And he wasn't going after just anybody, he was attacking the very leadership itself. He's calling them hypocrites, and telling you to not be like them.

Take a look at Chapter 23 of the Gospel of Matthew. Here is the entire Chapter in full.

Matthew 23:1-11
A Warning Against Hypocrisy
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

"Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called 'Rabbi' by others.

"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.


Matthew 23:13-39
Seven Woes on the Teachers of the Law and the Pharisees
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

"Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.' You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? You also say, 'If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.' You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"


That is the ENTIRETY of Chapter 23, the Gospel of Matthew. The entirety of the Chapter is spent condemning the faithful, in particular the leaders of the faithful, of his day. He could not have been more clear on his feelings toward them - his utter contempt for them - had he spit in their faces.

Is it any wonder then, that these are the very same people who had him crucified in the end? That's your answer.

And now I ask you, what do you think Jesus would say to so many of his faithful followers if he were here today? Would he not say the very same words? Do they not commit the very same sins?

So, I'll end this final point where I started. You have people who claim to be Christians who condemn you. You question yourself, and wonder if you are sinful, perhaps evil by nature. These people make you feel like dirt and trash. They make you feel unworthy and tell you that you cannot be a Christian.

They base all of their claims on a handful of sentences that they had to wrench out of context in the first place.

Take a good long look at what I've written. Everything in italics is directly from the very book they claim to hold dear to their heart. Their Savior said nothing about you, not even in passing reference, but he had a hell of a lot to say about them.

I think Jesus said it best himself: "You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

If you ask me, I think they have more than just a single plank in their eye. It's more like they've got an entire lumberyard on their face.

There is a reason so many so-called Christians avoid the Gospels themselves, because if they were to engage them directly they'd find that THEY are the ones being condemned. Again and again. To paraphrase Jesus from Matthew 7:13-14, the gate is narrow and only a few shall find it. There was a reason he went to the outcast, the very people the faithful had condemned. There was a reason the faithful are the ones who murdered him.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 02:02 PM   #16
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

In reply to everyone and Aldricks comment- I wanted to say just WOW. This is amazing. I have no clue how I read all that. Very interesting stuff you posted here. Opened me up to see the bible in a completely different light then I had been seeing it in the first place. Most of this was stuff I had already read on the gay Christian sites I went to but not in as much great detail as you put it. I am going to see a therapist as I told some of the users on here in their response. But I hope the therapist will also be able to help me. I sure got a better understanding from what you showed me here and I can say I appreciate the help of everyone. This has really helped me immensely in terms of coming to acceptance and I am one step closer to my goal of acceptance then I was before but hopefully with the right therapy I can completely accept myself. I came here not knowing what to expect and I got nothing but much love and support from everyone. I am very grateful and blessed for that. Thanks everyone and great hugs for you all
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 08:53 PM   #17
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

Aldrick, do I have your permission to print that out and use it as a reference when speaking with other people?
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 09:39 PM   #18
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

Gay and Christian, right here.

You are not alone. *hugs*

But I warn you, it's a bit of a lonely road.. caught between a scorned and angry lgbt community and a distrusting, prejudiced christian community can be difficult. just remember, the christian-hating lgbt persons do not speak for all lgbt people any more so than the gay-hating christians can speak for all christians...

and no matter how lonely, you are not alone.
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Old 6th Jul 2012, 09:46 PM   #19
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

May I add a comment? To late. If being gay is a sin, you can only commit it once; and you only sin once. The Bible also says that God will forgive all sins.

Good night and God bless
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Old 7th Jul 2012, 12:15 AM   #20
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Default Re: The bible tells me being gay is wrong and now I just don't know what to do.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caoimhe Fayre View Post
Gay and Christian, right here.

You are not alone. *hugs*

But I warn you, it's a bit of a lonely road.. caught between a scorned and angry lgbt community and a distrusting, prejudiced christian community can be difficult. just remember, the christian-hating lgbt persons do not speak for all lgbt people any more so than the gay-hating christians can speak for all christians...

and no matter how lonely, you are not alone.
Thank you for reminding me of that verse. I am glad to know I am not alone and yes God forgives all sins and I think to be honest I was more concerned over what people had to say about the bible that I let my life start to pass me by and now I can live my life

---------- Post added 7th Jul 2012 at 12:17 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by hulu735 View Post
May I add a comment? To late. If being gay is a sin, you can only commit it once; and you only sin once. The Bible also says that God will forgive all sins.

Good night and God bless
Thank you for the support. God does forgive all sins and I am here to say that through the blood of the lamb and through Jesus Christ I am forgiven. I just need to keep reminding myself that God loves me as I am because he makes no mistakes
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