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Questioning becoming anger

Discussion in 'Sexual Orientation' started by determined, Mar 8, 2013.

  1. determined

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    Hi, any advice would be great......

    I have been questioning my sexuality for six years and no matter how hard I try to change the way I feel/think, I am 90% sure that I am not fully straight. I don't want to be bi/lesbian as I want/ imagine myself having a 'normal' life i.e married to a man, children, good career and etc.

    However, I don't get any feelings for men apart from wanting a husband. If I find a man attractive, it lasts for five mins and then I can only see them as a friend. My attraction towards girls is very different, I get long-term crushes over them. I want to be with women, I get turned on by women and etc.

    I have never had a boyfriend but I have had girlfriends.

    Though I guess the main issue is that I don't want to like girls. I don't see it as natural or normal - I know that is controversial but that is how I feel. When I have these feelings for girls, initially I like it and then the guilt sets in and I get angry. Sometimes I will catch myself thinking about a woman or looking at someone at the train station for example and I will hate myself for it. I suddenly become overcome with anger and I get an impulse to hurt myself or hurt someone - just to get the anger out. Obviously I don't hit other people, I just get an impulse to. I have a history of slight self harm and although I haven't done it for a while, the impulses are getting worse the more confused I am.

    I am 22 and single whilst the majority of my friends are engaged..... the future doesn't seem so bright :s So what am I?
     
    #1 determined, Mar 8, 2013
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  2. greatwhale

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    When I came out to myself just 4 weeks ago, the initial realization was a total shock, it was an unmitigated reversal of everything I thought was important to me.

    I wasn't exactly angry but I wasn't pleased either. It closed doors that I thought would always be open to me. But I could not bring myself to start dating a woman again after almost 20 years of a failed marriage, I simply could not do that to another person again.

    Closing doors is a loss, and we feel/resent/regret losses much more intensely that we do the possibility of a potential gain, which is the possibility of living with integrity, with someone we can fully truly and unreservedly love. That is the ball we need to keep our eye on, not some inaccurate idea of what we should become only because it is normal.
     
    #2 greatwhale, Mar 8, 2013
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  3. Femme

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    I agree with what great whale said.

    To the OP,

    I know exactly how you feel. It sucks. There's no way around it. I don't have a problem being attracted to women, I have a problem that my life is different because I do. Being bisexual isn't anything less difficult than being lesbian although I'm sure some mig think that. Just because I am attracted to men doesn't mean I am going to find one that is single, attracted to me, wanting a committed relationship with me and is a person that I can make it work with. Amazingly, I found a woman that met that criteria and we have been together for 7 years.

    You would think after 7 years of being with this one woman that I love, I would not be on this site still struggling but that would be a lie. I am so grateful that I found her and that we are together but I am angry that I don't feel I can mention her existence at work like any other normal person. Yes, I could mention her at work but then I just become the gay teacher instead of just known by my name and the subject that I teach. I can't even begin to tell you how many times I've been "warned" by other teachers and even administrators that I had previously respected to be "careful" around a certain female teacher because she is a lesbian. So whenever that was said I always looked so confused and asked "Be careful of what exactly. I don't understand." Most did not realize how ridiculous their comments were and told me a second time, "You know, she's gay. She likes women and well you're pretty so she will probably like you. Make sure she knows that you have a boyfriend since you aren't married." Can't even make this nonsense up.

    I'm not sure what field of work you are in but that's one of my big issues. I hate that I have changed how I act and what I sha about my life since having a female partner. It makes me angry. I'm sure many will think that I need to work out my issues and it's all on me not other people, which is true but unfortunately the hatred in society does affect me.

    This journey is too long. When I was dating a man and we had chemistry, the only question was will we get married, is he the one? People would smile when we walked down the block holding hands and relatives and friends would ask if we were going to be the next to get married. No one asks me anything anymore. No one wants to know. It's not even that they are bigoted, it's just that it's different. No one is going to ask if we plan to have a baby or get married. If we walk down the street holding hands, people will look and often I will see a look of disgust or get the feeling that I am a circus attraction. It sucks.

    Sorry I'm not more positive but I guess that's why I'm here.

    Good luck.
     
  4. Ianthe

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    Your post says that you don't get any feelings for men even though you wish you did, and you keep getting feelings for women even though you wish you didn't. To me, that would indicate that you are really only attracted to women. As such, you would probably be happiest if you could accept your feelings and develop an identity which will allow you to identify with other people who are similar to you. Most women who feel the way that you do ultimately find that they identify best with "lesbian" or "gay."

    However you identify, it seems like you are not likely to really be fulfilled in a relationship with a man.

    It seems like you are moving back and forth between denial and anger in the stages of grief. We all have to go through the stages of grief as part of our self-acceptance process. It might be best if you were to embrace the anger and work through it, rather than pushing it away and going back into denial again and again. The article I linked to there is aimed at gay men, but it should apply for you as well, and it shows both how a gay person goes through the stages of grief, and how family members also do so.

    "Questioning" is often really denial--deep down you know what your feelings are, but your mind is just refusing to really accept the truth. That's why it's confusing.

    What you are going through is a completely normal part of the process.
     
  5. determined

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    I guess that isn't want I wanted to hear. There is the fear factor which Femme mentioned with respect to the way my friends and work colleagues will treat me because I don't want to be seen as different I guess.

    Silly question but why am I attracted to women? Was I really born this way or can I change it? In some ways, I would say that I am not in denial because I know I am gay although I would never admit it. I just don't want to be gay..... what can I do about it? Accepting it really isn't an option.

    I've been thinking about ending it all because I can't deal with the guilt and the anger. I don't want to end up doing something I'd regret to someone else.
     
  6. Femme

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    Well I'm not sure if I was born this way but this is how I feel. I don't want to not be straight either but that's what I am. I'm not straight. Don't end it all. That's not an option. If accepting it isn't an option just let it sit there for awhile. That's what I did. Now mind you, I'm no walking picture of healthy self-acceptance but I just let my feelings sit there and I chose not to act on them for not sure how long but maybe 8 years. Now that's not a suggested timeframe but just think to yourself, sure I know this but let's just keep it where I know it and see if anything changes. Then you realize that nothing has changed when you know this about yourself, which means you haven't changed. You have just added another dimension.

    I like to think of it as becoming bilingual and living in a country where another language is spoken. I could live in France and learn French but I'm always going to be an American living in France even if I became a French citizen. As I would become more assimilated to Franch culture and language, people would hardly notice that I was different. I would just be their friend, not their American friend.

    Right now you just landed in France and if you dress as the French do and do not open your mouth, no one would know except you. You could do that for awhile but eventually you will want to sit in a cafe and order some pastries. So just take it easy on yourself. Can't even believe I'm saying this, it's like I'm giving myself advice too. Just walk around France quietly thinking in English until your are ready to try out your French.

    Hope this helps. Feel free to contact me anytime.

    :smilewave
     
  7. Ianthe

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    Hmm. Maybe you are more in anger and bargaining than denial then.

    Why do you think it "isn't natural or normal"? Clearly it is the way you naturally feel.

    Everything in the research suggests that the causes of sexual orientation are primarily biological, and that it is probably set before birth, and certainly before age 5--and after that it cannot be changed.

    What do you mean by "doing something you'd regret to someone else"?

    Why do you say that accepting it is not an option? Are you just emotionally able to right now or is there some other reason?

    It is possible to be very happy and fulfilled as a gay person. Most of the things you want, you can have with a female partner, just as with a male partner. Being with women instead of men does not have to drastically change your life.

    Another thing I wanted to mention about the anger--did you know that most of the most violent gay bashers and anti-gay bullies are gay themselves? It's because of exactly the kind of violent anger you are talking about, the impulse to hurt someone.

    It's normal to have some very difficult emotional struggles during your self-acceptance process, but you eventually move through them. It would really be premature to "end it all." Are you seriously contemplating suicide? If you are, I would strongly encourage you to get help.

    (*hug*)

    But truly, can you explain what it is that makes you so convinced that it's bad? What's the harm in loving someone?
     
  8. determined

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    Thanks for everybody's comments. I guess it would be easy just to sit and wait but I have been doing that for years and nothing has changed. I am getting older now and I cannot afford for something to fall onto my lap. Plus I am not sure whether I would like to become accustomed to living in that life.

    Sometimes you are destined to do things I guess.
     
  9. cm81990

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    Before you say "everything," please cite the research. They are only theories. It is obvious that someone cannot alter their sexual orientation at will, but there have been reported cases of spontaneous shifts in sexual orientation across the life span. Not everyone is sexually fluid, but it does occur in some people. There is a guy on this forum who's sexuality shifted from heterosexual to bisexual. I know of a lesbian who never had any sexual feelings for men until she fell in love with one. Totally shocked her. I disagree that sexual orientation is 100% inborn. There is definite partial environmental influences, although we don't know the exact mixtures. It is really complex.

    Take me for example. I could remember crushes on girls as young as age 4 and 5. Why then at puberty did it all change? If sexual orientation is fixed at age 5, then I should've like boys back then, but never did.
     
  10. greatwhale

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    There was a point during that long, sleepness night four weeks ago, the kind of night where all my illusions just slipped away for a while, and which permitted a glimpse into a different set of possibilities. I just suddenly envisioned (or perhaps more accurately allowed myself, for once) to envision my life with a male partner.

    I can only describe what happened next as a kick in the gut, as if my soul responded to a vision and it was the most alluring, natural and beautiful thing I could imagine.

    That was the moment when I let it all go, the anxiety, the fear and self-loathing, all of it slipped away like an avalanche, I am gay and now I must live with the consequences, because the alternative is just no longer acceptable.

    You need to be able to envision the possibility of a different life, and to really believe in the possibility of getting what you most need, a deep and loving friendship with that one person, out there.
     
  11. Ianthe

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    Do you think it will be helpful to the OP to consider those unusual examples in the face of her own sexual orientation, which has clearly been stable? Would it be a good result for her to cling to the idea that, maybe someday she could possibly experience this kind of shift, so maybe she should just hope for that, and wait on the possibility that she, too, against all odds, will someday meet that one man she will fall for?

    Personally, I think that would be a terrible idea. It is very unlikely to happen for her.

    I said in my post that sexual orientation is primarily biological. That is not the same thing as 100% inborn. When people experience big shifts, I would expect the shifts also have causes that are primarily biological, i.e. hormonal and neurological. Although really, in the cases where people discover that they are bisexual, it doesn't really seem necessary that that be a huge shift--they have simply discovered that they can be attracted to more people than they previously thought. Experiencing shifts in attraction (being more attracted to men sometimes, and women other times) is a commonly reported pattern in bisexuality.

    Different genes will react to the same environment in different ways. So two different people, exposed to the same environmental factors, will come out differently because of their genes.

    In twin studies, mono-zygotic twins of a gay people are also gay 50% of the time, regardless of whether they were raised in the same environment after birth. The fact that it is only 50% of the time means that it is not determined solely by genetics, while the fact that 50% is a lot higher than the general population means that there is a strong genetic factor. But the fact that whether the twins were raised together or separately made no difference means that how people are raised most likely makes no difference. Whatever the other factors may be, they do not have to do with that.

    I have never seen any credible evidence that sexual orientation can be altered by child rearing practices, or life experiences, if that is the sort of thing you mean by "environmental factors." And psychologists were definitely looking for that to be the case for a long time, so if it was they would surely have found some evidence for it.

    "Environmental factors" can also be more physical or biological in nature, such as the presence or absence of certain nutrients in the diet, or exposure to chemicals in the environment, and so on. The hormonal environment of the womb is really an environmental factor, rather than a genetic factor, although it is still biological. And even for twins, exposure to hormones will never be identical--one twin may absorb more or less of a hormone than the other, even when they are in the womb together.

    "Age 5" has been the consensus in the scientific community for a long time, and is often referred to as such by experts. I'm not personally attached to it--biology happens throughout one's life, not only before birth or age 5. It's not unheard of for gay people to know they are gay in early childhood, though. But my main point is that Determined should not expect her orientation to change, because that is very unlikely.

    Could something surprising happen? Yes. But just because you could win the lottery someday, it doesn't mean you should base your retirement plan on it.

    Here are some references to studies about sexual orientation, biological sex, gender, etc.

    Did you have crushes on girls your own age, or adult/post-pubescent women? Boys and girls are not very different at that age, while clothed--or at least, all the visible differences are in what they are wearing, you can't really see the actual physical differences. And girls are the ones you were "supposed" to get crushes on.

    I think I had a couple of crushes on boys in elementary school. But never on older boys who were past puberty or men. In retrospect, I had feelings for women and girls that I can see now were attraction, but I think since I didn't recognize them as such at the time, they did not grow into full-fledged crushes.
     
  12. cm81990

    cm81990 Guest

    I had crushes on both girls my own age and older adult/post-pubescent women. Some of them were older girls in the neighborhood, friends of my cousin (she was in high school then), and vivid memories of actresses from several movies. I never even had the slightest blush over a boy my age then, but girls I did. Never had that butterfly effect or nervousness around boys, only girls. So, why did I change at age 12? I've like guys exclusively since except for one rare exception in 8th grade-- only one girl that lasted no more than a few weeks. I didn't understand what it was about her. But it disappeared and never had an inkling of sexual desire towards girls since then.

    I'd also like to add that I don't see how a child can fake a crush or fake redness in his face from finding a girl attractive. It wasn't just something I was suppose to like... it came naturally to me at that age. Completely disappeared later on.
     
    #12 cm81990, Mar 8, 2013
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  13. Ianthe

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    What would your explanation be? My only guess would be hormonal changes.
     
  14. determined

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    When I was younger, I was definitely attracted to both girls and boys but as I have got older, I have become more attracted to girls. It could be the onset of puberty which changed the way I feel but when I was younger, I didn't have the best/ most normal of introduction into relationships and sex etc.

    Hmm. Maybe you are more in anger and bargaining than denial then.

    Why do you think it "isn't natural or normal"? Clearly it is the way you naturally feel. It isn't normal because being gay in my family is unheard of and wouldn't be accepted really. Moreover, I would say it isn't natural because we werent built to be this way.... for example two women cant have children without intervention.

    Everything in the research suggests that the causes of sexual orientation are primarily biological, and that it is probably set before birth, and certainly before age 5--and after that it cannot be changed.

    What do you mean by "doing something you'd regret to someone else"? I don't know I am just very angry about all of this. My anger is indiscriminate. Just sometimes I feel that I have to get my anger out but I have never actual done anything because I have control over this. I am just wary that these impulsions to be angry, especially towards others, are becoming more frequent

    Why do you say that accepting it is not an option? Are you just emotionally able to right now or is there some other reason? If I live a gay life, I would be too ashamed to 'live.' I would feel unworthy in comparison to my friends. The majority of my family would not associate themselves with me and I couldn't live with that. You could say that I am a perfectionist.

    It is possible to be very happy and fulfilled as a gay person. Most of the things you want, you can have with a female partner, just as with a male partner. Being with women instead of men does not have to drastically change your life. I can but it won't be as easy or as acceptable. Should I really have to make a decision to fight for the rest of my life?

    Another thing I wanted to mention about the anger--did you know that most of the most violent gay bashers and anti-gay bullies are gay themselves? It's because of exactly the kind of violent anger you are talking about, the impulse to hurt someone. I do sufer with internalised homophobia but I try not be hypocritical

    It's normal to have some very difficult emotional struggles during your self-acceptance process, but you eventually move through them. It would really be premature to "end it all." Are you seriously contemplating suicide? If you are, I would strongly encourage you to get help. I know there must be light at the end of the tunnel, I just don't know how much more I can travel through the tunnel before something positive occurs. I have had a set back in my career recently and with my orientation related questioning, I have become rather unhappy. Again sometimes, I have compulsions to shorten my life but these are quite cyclic depending on what has happened. Today, I am feeling much better than yesterday which is a good thing as I hate cutting and I hate my over obsessive thoughts of hanging myself. However, I have my female partner who is helping me through this.



    But truly, can you explain what it is that makes you so convinced that it's bad? What's the harm in loving someone? Nothing wrong with loving someone but I am loving the wrong kind of person
     
  15. cm81990

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    Possibly. It really confused me when it occurred. But we don't know the exact answers, so we can only speculate.

    As for the concerns of the OP, I definitely feel your pain. Having gone through the whole internalized homophobia and still sometimes do. You can read my thread "Being Gay is Awful" just to see that you're not alone in any of this. Lots of people will give supportive advice and while I take it all into consideration, I'm slow to respond to it. You may be slow to take in all the advice given here. Your mindset is consumed by internalized homophobia that you don't want to hear anything positive, just those opinions reinforcing your views. I'm the same way. At the end of the day though, it is your life and you have the choice to live it however you want. Whether you want to live as a lesbian or the straight life, it's your decision.
     
  16. determined

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    Your thread was quite helpful as there were a few common themes. You have really just summarised I feel and it will set in one day. I guess I just want to know who I am immediately but I guess that is not going to happen. Thanks for everyone's comments :slight_smile:
     
  17. Ianthe

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    I would really recommend that you work with a therapist. It's good that your partner is supporting you, but it has to be very hard for her. Especially with you thinking thing like that your relationship with her is somehow wrong, and less worthy. That she is "the wrong kind of person" to love. That her love isn't as good or as right as a man's love would be. That effects her, too. It's very stressful when there is a constant fear that your partner is going to leave you, and it has nothing to do with anything you can possibly control.

    I don't actually agree that it would be okay for you to decide to live "the straight life." I think that would be very unfair to any male partner that you had. I mean, you have the choice to do that, but really, that would be wrong.

    The notion that we are "not made for" same-sex relationships is really based on an extremely over-simplistic understanding of biology. Really, the biology of the sexes is not as clear-cut as people tend to think. The degree to which a fetus is masculinized depends very heavily on the presence of certain hormones, and also on the sensitivity of the fetus to those hormones. While most people turn out fairly clearly on one side or the other, it is really a full spectrum of possibilities in all cases: from the way your body turns out physically, to the way your brain turns out in terms of both gender and sexual orientation. In your case, your brain is configured for sexual attraction to female-typical physical traits. How can it be wrong when it's just how you are?

    You already know who you are, you just don't like it. Not liking who you are is an issue best worked out in therapy. Relying solely on your partner for that is very unfair to her. Imagine how you would feel, if she were constantly thinking of suicide, and you were her only support. It's not her fault you are gay, just because she's the one you're in love with.

    What you are experiencing is shame. If you are interested, I can give you some resources for addressing shame. If I provide them, will you look at them?
     
  18. wandering i

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    The opinions of others can feel so important, but please also keep in mind that society can be disastrously wrong in their treatment of people. Kidnapping African people and working them to death as slaves was also considered A-OK for a large chunk of American history. We now recognize that as inhuman and monstrous, and very wrong. We see the wrong in treating loving, thinking, feeling human beings as animals or sub-human and stealing their lives and rights away from them. It has taken many, many years and we are still plagued by racism and social struggle to give people their constitutional rights, but anyone who is blatantly racist is now considered in the wrong.

    Society's views change over time and from culture to culture. It may not be a great consolation to you now, but the views of homophobes and other bigots are not the law of nature, and in time will be marginalized and pushed down if we are willing to fight for the rights of gender/sexual minorities to be treated with the same dignity and respect as straight people. Homosexuality has existed as long as sex has, the idea that being homosexual is wrong has not. In America, the tides are shifting in favor of equality and respect for gays and lesbians especially. In the next few decades, homophobia may be as widely taboo as racism. It's not perfect but it's a step in the direction of recognizing that who you love should not strip you of your rights or dignity. Racism still exists, but we also have a black president now. We are moving forward as a society.

    You are more than just your sexuality. You do not have to fit inside a little box constructed for you by society. Being gay is no different than having freckles or green eyes. There will always be people who condemn those who are different from them, but those are the opinions of people, not a universal law. You are a human being with vast potential and as deserving of happiness as any other living creature on this planet.
     
  19. determined

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    I am very open to advice and tips, Thanks
     
  20. Ianthe

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    Would you leave your partner for a man, if one initiated things with you?

    To be honest, if I were talking to your partner instead of you, I would tell her that you are not ready to be in a relationship. That she should support you as a friend, but let you work through all of this before getting into a relationship with you.

    You are starting with the assumption that there is something wrong with being gay. There isn't, even though you feel like there is right now.

    And it wouldn't likely be something to do with your current hormones, although I suppose that's possible, but rather more likely to do with the hormone balance during prenatal development. So, it's the configuration of your brain. "Imbalance" and "born wrong" imply that there is a problem, and there isn't one. Being gay is not a kind of harm, and it does no harm. It is not a pathology. The only problem that comes with being gay is that people are homophobic.

    I am trying not to be offended, but I am gay myself, you know. I'm pretty damn sure that being gay is just how I am, and I don't think that I was "born wrong." I think I'm exactly how I'm meant to be. And I think you are, too.

    Your relationship with your girlfriend sounds very codependent to me. She's being your savior, and it's really not healthy. Doesn't she deserve to have a partner who can love her back unreservedly? Who can offer her support when she needs it?

    What do you mean by "change you?" Relationships should not be based on the idea that one person is going to change the other one. And if you want to change, you are responsible for doing that yourself.


    To start talking about shame, here are Brene Brown's TED talks about vulnerability and shame. She defines shame as "the fear of not belonging." Watch the videos and tell me what you think.

    [youtube]iCvmsMzlF7o[/youtube]
    [youtube]L0ifUM1DYKg[/youtube]