Hello all, I wrote a post yesterday about my story... I took the time to read other posts, and I guess I do understand why not one responded---because it's pretty repetitive from others struggling with identity. My question though is, could attraction be fueled by fear. I *consciously* am not afraid of being gay, but I believe my subconscious does. The more I fear, the stronger my sexual feelings become. I can even admit that I'm getting aroused by men, which brings temporary relief I even feel I start becoming attracted to women again, but then the next day just have this fear again, and constantly checking... am I attracted to this guy, or this guy, or this guy... and then my I get these weird bodily sensations. On days that I am calm, thinking straight... none of this really phases me. I don't understand. I have much history with OCD. I am very obsessive compulsive. Either being with germs or obsessive thoughts that will constantly replay in my head. I feel this is my most on-going one though, and it just really leaves me confused at this point. My question, could attraction be fueled by fear? Maybe attraction isn't the right word, because I'm not literally attracted.. rather strong weird feelings. Or give me some kind of idea. If you would like, you can read my story in a post from yesterday. Many thanks!
Hi A21g! Welcome to EC. I have a couple things to say, because I also ask myself if my attraction is driven by fear! I often have a hard time dissociating attraction to the same sex from strong anxiety. Weird, too, because some days it doesn't bother me at all either! Do you have a harder time when you are hanging around a lot of same-sex friends? For me I am constantly worried that I am attracted to them. Additionally I sometimes feel a weird attraction for totally inappropriate women like my grandma- who I obviously am not interested in! Anyway, some thoughts on your/our situation: 1. I assume you have heard of a branch of OCD called HOCD. Have you read about it? 2. Whatever the "truth" is, I think it is a first priority to bring down your anxiety/ OCD. Are you being treated for it with either medication or therapy? 3. I am 22 and only now beginning to dissociate my same-sex attraction and anxiety partly from accepting myself as "queer." It is kind of a cop-out because I am really just very confused. Accepting that I am not sure, and whatever is okay, has not been easy but has helped me deal with my anxiety (I also have underlying anxiety issues, though not OCD specifically). Part of the way I have learned to do this is by reading other people's stories and relating to others' uncertainty. I keep reminding myself I am not a bad person and I do not need to punish myself for whatever thoughts/ feelings I have. Hope some of this resonates or helps in some way-- Keep me posted! - Ellie
Hi Ellie! Thanks for taking the time to reply ! I really think my anxiety is on a positive feedback loop. I have anxiety, when I calm it down, I expect for all my feelings for the same-sex to subside right away, then I get anxiety again; and then repeat. But I still don't know! haha. In my case, I think it my might be better when I'm with male friends, in the sense I seem to be more distracted from other people around us... but then I realised that I've been developing weird attachment feelings for male friends, which I never use to have before I started to get anxiety over this. These symptoms started to develop deeper into my worries, which makes it harder to really determine if they are genuine feelings, or a projection of my fear. I have heard of HOCD and read much about it! Even though I read in posts saying that it's not as a real clinical disorder, it seems very legitimate. It's interesting, because when I'm not worrying about being gay, or my subconscious isn't (the me behind the feelings and everything accepts it is what it is), I'm usually worry about something else. I bet if I stepped out of the house though, and looked around it probably would spark back up. Yea, you're right Ellie, about bringing down the anxiety. I have come a long way this year with this, and it gets better. My ultimate goal, is to stop checking if I am attracted to everyone person I look at. Because I think that's what is fueling it. Good for you! You're taking good steps to find yourself out, and you're right... it's ok to be not sure. I have a question, how long has this been going on for you? Did anything spark it? Many thanks for the help Ellie, much appreciated!
Of course! Folk like us gotta stick together in this complicated world! It isn't easy, especially because so many people misunderstand anxiety disorders AND sexuality so trying to make sense of both simultaneously can seem like a lot! I think, for that reason, it is important to try and focus on the anxiety and improving that before making any relationship moves... But I think you figured that out already. Weird attachment can be anything (friendship, jealousy, or attraction). Do you feel sexual attraction to the same sex? Remember that is a perfectly normal and valid way to feel and you don't have to feel nervous or ashamed about it! I have had same-sex attractions since puberty-- well before my anxiety issues, but anxiety has exacerbated my reactions to these feelings. I don't think my sexuality is a result, therefore, of my anxiety, but sometimes the attraction and anxiety are both so simultaneously strong they become hard to distinguish. I don't know if that resonates with you, but everyone is different! Again, therapy can help to unwrap all this for you and if you are under 24 or so you can get youth counseling for free in a lot of places. Best wishes! - Ellie
Just to be clear, so that others aren't confused. HOCD doesn't exist as a standalone disorder. Nobody credible in the psychology or related fields recognizes it as a standalone disorder, any more than there is a "Lock OCD" for people who obsessively check and recheck door locks. If you have actual, diagnosed OCD (not self-diagnosed based on Internet information), then it is possible that one of the obsession/compulsions you may have is a focus on your sexual orientation. But if you do not have any other signs or indications of obsessive or compulsive behavior that have been properly diagnosed, then an unusual focus or obsession with sexual orientation is not a psychological diagnosis for a disorder that doesn't exist. I get tired of repeating this, but it's really important because the bullshit about HOCD, perpetrated by religious quacks, has done a trememdous disservice to people who are legitimately struggling with accepting their sexual orientation, and it needs to stop.
A21g: What we know for sure is that you are very anxious and that your anxiety feeds on itself. Have you seen a therapist? If not, I would recommend it. How big a role sexual orientation plays in your anxiety is hard to say. You don't really talk about how and when the question of sexual orientation came into play for you. I can tell you about my own experience when I was younger. I was extremely anxious about my sexual orientation. I went back and forth, trying to figure it out. Am I gay? But how can I be gay, I'm attracted to girls/women? Maybe I'm bi? But I don't feel romantically interested in men. . . . . And so on. I have come to understand that I am bisexual, but I have also come to understand that that doesn't mean what I thought it meant. I imagined that people who were bi just sort of casually went back and forth between men and women depending on who they were attracted by at any given moment. There are probably some people like that, but I think that for most of us it is much more complicated. when you say that you can consciously accept being gay, but your unconscious fights it, I don't think you're quite right. I think that what you mean is that you can intellectually accept the idea but resist it on some less rational, more emotional level. I think that's important to understand, because I think that it will help you understand what actually IS going on unconsciously. The shrinks refer to your (and my) plight as ambivalence. That means you are being pulled in two opposite directions at once. And you can't figure out whether one is more "right" or "real" for you than the other. So you go back and forth. You can't quite connect with your object of desire because you can't figure out which object you're "supposed" to connect with. This is extremely anxiety-producing. Here's what I understand about myself and I suspect is true for you too. The conflict over sexual orientation is only partly about sexual orientation. There's a deeper "split" at work in the ego and sexual ambivalence is one sign of that split. The goal of therapy has to be to try to reintegrate the parts of oneself that have been split apart. Only once that happens, can the anxiety about sexual orientation be addressed. Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that what you're dealing with isn't real or that sexual orientation is no big deal. I'm just saying that you should start by seeing it as part of some bigger puzzle about yourself that you need to piece together. A good therapist can help you look at your self-image and see where it doesn't quite square with the truth about yourself.
Excellent post wrhla! That makes a lot of sense. I'm in the same boat as A21g, I wrote all about it in my recent thread "any advice/feedback appreciated." I also highly identify with everything I've read on HOCD, which at first was comforting but then I started thinking about how maybe everyone who thinks they have HOCD may actually just be a repressed homosexual... And then the mental back-and-forth begins. I was recently talking to a gay acquaintance of mine about my dilemma, which basically ended in him trying to flirt with me and get me to have sex with him. While even if I did want to experiment with a guy, I doubt I would choose him. The fact that I'm in a very serious relationship with a girl makes things more confusing because I definitely do not want to cheat on her. I've been planning on proposing to her soon, but now that these obsessive thoughts of telling myself that I"m gay have been creeping back in my life, I'm having second thoughts (literally). I really don't want to be someone who realizes I'm gay and comes out of the closet when I'm 50, meanwhile destroying a marriage and possibly doing harm to my kids. Not that there's anything wrong with people who have had that experience, but if my destiny is to be gay (is this the "HOCD" talking?), I'd rather come to grips with it in my 20's rather than my 40's or 50's. Has anyone with "HOCD" symptoms experimented with having gay sex with positive results? If so, did that experience make you realize that you were undoubtedly straight or gay? Is it worth potentially sacrificing the beautiful relationship I have with my girlfriend in order to pursue my potentially-true-self/destructive irrational obsession?
OK, let's eliminate HOCD from consideration because it isn't a real condition, and so talking about it, and mythical symptoms of it, does no one any good toward actually solving the underlying issue. So, once we eliminate the bullshit HOCD talk, there are two realistic possibilities: A. You are, in fact, gay (or bi, or somewhere on the continuum) and deathly afraid of actually owning and accepting that fact. Sometimes the "deathly afraid" part isn't even conscious; you can consciously believe you'd be OK with it, but your unconscious has other ideas. B. You legitimately have some sort of obsessive/compulsive disorder, in which case it is very, very likely that you would also have other compulsive or obsessive behaviors. So... if you do, in fact, have other symptoms of OCD, then seeing a professional and getting a proper diagnosis and getting help with the issue would be strongly advised. If you don't, then we need to really look at your feelings and behaviors, and separate them from the meta-concern of whether or not you have a nonexistent condition. So the thing to do is look at it logically. If you're a guy, you don't need to have sex with another guy to know you're gay. But you do need to open your mind to the possibility. And that means... allowing yourself to look at guys and see what sorts of attraction (if any) you feel to them. What parts of their bodies turn you on? What happens if you go to a beach, or water park, or other places where half-clotheed people are about? Where are your eyes going? To the girls? guys? both? Then think about porn. Watch some gay porn. Check out different varieties (twink, jock, bear, whatever). What is your response? A straight guy will, for the most part, be "Meh." Most won't be instantly appalled and repulsed (unless he's insecure with himself.) A closeted or not-yet-aware gay guy may find an odd combination of being very repulsed but also very aroused by it. Finally, what are your masturbatory fantasies like? What happens when you think about being with a girl? What about imagining being with a guy? Which one is more arousing? All of these can be practiced without violating trust with your girlfriend. If you don't get any signs of attraction to men, then you can be pretty confident you're straight. But if you do find yourself attracted, your eyes wandering, yourself getting aroused with gay porn or gay fantasies... it isn't HOCD. It's a genuine attraction to people of the same sex, and it means you are gay, or at least somewhere on the continuum. Hopefully that will help, and get you off of the endless and pointless HOCD merry-go-round.
Hi Chip, Thanks for your very rational reply to this issue. I know this probably isn't the right place to ask my question, but if you can offer some insight into my situation I would be super grateful. I know I am on the lesbian side of bisexual sexually, although it has taken me a long time to accept this. During this time I have been in relationships exclusively with men. In fact, I am currently in one now and he knows about my sexuality, but we are both totally happy and satisfied with the relationship. So much so that, like cheesegrits, we have talked about marriage. I can see myself happy with him in the long-term, but am obviously concerned about issues my sexuality may cause in the future. Do you think it is a good idea for people in a situation like this to experiment and delay commitment? Is it inevitable that my sexuality will cause concerns and issues in the future? When and how to bisexual people normally decide to marry, and what kinds of expectations do they have? Thanks! - Ellie
Hey everyone, Thanks for the clarification Chip. And wrhla, you're definitely right about it for the most part of us being complicated. What would make things easier is not even giving myself a label. But it's easier said thank done.. maybe because society is only labeling. Because if I label something on myself at this point in time, none of them seem to fit the picture exactly? To give you some context, this is how everything came to be. I explained it in a post about 2 days ago. But to shorten things up, I was bullied at a young age, people called me gay before I even knew what that meant. This went on until puberty, until I developed and became more manly and developed and the bullying stopped. I was a very happy teenager after all the bullying stopped, I went to parties, and I felt like I genuinely liked girls. I even fell for a girl at the age of 17, and had an on and off relationship for 2 years. Last year, things began to change in my life. I got a stressful job, my parents and I were fighting and I got a couple bad marks in school. I felt to my ultimate low at this point, I was depressed and vulnerable... the happy me wasn't there anymore. When watching TV one day, I saw a homosexual couple, and I instantly felt repulsed and this weird tight feeling in my stomach. Before this actually, whenever I even heard to word 'gay', I felt this tight feeling in my stomach. I really was afraid of any gay topic after being bullied for years. Anyway, this happened, and I thought I was becoming aroused and rejected the thought immediately. Which led to more unwanted, intrusive thoughts. And I kept rejecting this, with all my power. This led to anxiety, more intrusive thoughts, and now feelings. I began getting feelings whenever I saw random men, attractive or not. I've reduced my anxiety since, and I still get these feeling in my stomach when looking at men, attractive or not. Usually when I get the first one of the day, it starts a chain reaction, leads me to just checking every man I see, to see if I get this feeling. And I always do. Days that my anxiety is better, I barely get this feeling. Sometimes it's still present. But I don't focus on it, and it becomes weaker and weaker. Although it's never fully be gone, so now I just don't know. That happiness that was there before all this happened hasn't come back since. Thanks for the advice, I think I will have to see a therapist if things don't improve in the next 3 months. I am however determined to figure things out on my own. ---------- Post added 5th Jun 2013 at 08:13 AM ---------- ^ Just to add to my post, I don't know if I was suppressing the fear of being gay for childhood and getting bullied, then it being bubbled up, and when a vulnerable time in my life came up, it sprung out. Or if I am gay and suppressed my feeling until I was vulnerable. ---------- Post added 5th Jun 2013 at 08:20 AM ---------- Ellie, I believe that behind sexuality, there is a choice of whom you love. I think that if you really to genuinely care for you boyfriend, and see yourself with him in the long-term, you should keep him. Sexual feelings are kind of just nature's reproductive biology, but behind that is a you who makes a choice And i'm not saying that it's a choice to be gay.. lol, then I wouldn't be here. But life is more than just having someone just to fulfill lust. That's my opinion though!
A21g, Thanks for your input. He is a keeper and I think both our situations will involve a lot of anxiety reduction whatever the outcome! I am not sure what you mean by a "tight, repulsed feeling," but it does sound like your anxiety stems from your past of being bullied and might have been triggered by other difficult life events. This doesn't sound like arousal to me, but then, I haven't heard you describe whether or not you are really aroused by women either... I think trying to work it out on your own is tempting, but I have found that my mind goes only in circles and I benefit a lot from talking it out with someone experienced. That said, try to find a therapist who benefits your needs and resonates with you! Bet of luck! - Ellie
A21: I don't think the bullying had any impact on making you think you were gay. However... this may sound strange, but sometimes bullies have gaydar themselves and can pick out gay kids before the kids even know. (Not uncommonly, because the bullies themselves are actually gay... Glee did an amazing job of talking about that issue a couple years back.) So it's very possible that the bullies inadvertently triggered your own self-examination, but also caused you to vehemently reject it, simply because you didn't want the taunting you received to be true. The revulsion you saw on TV would be consistent with you being gay and in denial, because if you think about it, being OK with that would make the bullies that taunted you correct in what they said, and that would be a huge self-esteem hit, which your conscious and unconscious would do everything possible to reject. Remember that straight men who are comfortable with themselves aren't grossed out by seeing a gay couple; the response is more "meh." Also, for what it's worth, there are a lot of guys that were absolutely convinced in high school that they were straight... had girlfriends, had sex with girls, etc... because denial can be incredibly powerful. But once they got past the denial and admitted they were gay, they realized that none of the relationships they had in high school were really authentic, and the feelings weren't real in the way they are with another guy. (BTW, I speak more comfortably about male homosexuality than about female because I am less familar with female homosexuality. Though many of the themes and patterns are the same, there are some significant differences, so I'm less comfortable describing those situations at the risk of getting it wrong.) I also agree with Ellie that this really isn't something you can easily work on by yourself. You'll save a lot of time and anguish if you find a therapist and start working on it that way. Ellie: This is a tough call. We have a lot of people here at EC, both male and female, who have gone ahead and entered heterosexual marriages, only to find that they were really not happy. Sometimes they stick it out for a year or two, sometimes 20+ years. But in any case, it ends up messy and complicated. I'm not sure what the best solution is here, because it all depends on how strong your draw/attraction is for women. If you've never been in a relationship with a woman, or had sexual experiences with a woman, then it might be hard to gauge how that will compare with being a man. At the same time, if you feel happy and content, to the point that you can see yourself staying content in the long term, and you aren't just marrying to try to solve the problem... then the marriage could work quite well. I know hetero married couples where one partner is bisexual and there's no problem and the bisexual partner is perfectly happy with an opposite-sex mate. And I know homosexual married couples with a bisexual partner where it works also. I don't think there's an inherent risk of failure to your relationship... unless the bisexuality is really 90% gay and 10% straight, in which case, it is likely to cause a problem. But whether it's worth giving up a healthy, working relationship to experiment and see... that is a very tough call that I don't think there's an easy answer to. I do think you owe it to your partner to have an in-depth conversation and honestly put all the cards on the table, because to do anything less would be inauthentic, and if you think about what you'd want if the roles were reveresed, I think you can understand why that would be important.
A21g: I agree with most of what Chip has said here. One thing you said, reminded me of something. When I was in my teens and twenties, I would literally get a stomach ache at the onset of a homosexual fantasy. It was a physical symptom of my anxiety & denial. Is this the sort of thing you're talking about when you speak of getting disgusted? I second what Chip says about bullying and anxiety, etc. The bullying itself could certainly produce a profound anxiety and self-loathing in you. But it wouldn't then actually produce homosexual desires or fantasies. If you're finding "relief" in masturbatory fantasies about men, that's a pretty strong indicator of being gay or bi. I can understand that the bullying may be a motivating factor in your resistance as well. You don't want to give the bullies the satisfaction of having been right about your sexual orientation. That's perfectly understandable. But ultimately, we need to decide things like this based on our inner truth rather than external factors.
Thanks for the insight guys. About the denial parts. I don't believe I have ever been in denial... maybe now I am, because i'm very confused, and for the first few months, since i completely rejected it. But I still don't know. I just never really knew, or I just assumed I was straight. I never fantasized about men before this week, and I wouldn't even call it a fantasy since I was purposely putting images into my head to see how I would react. I did however fantasized about women (before anxiety started, and this question popped up), but I didn't do it to an extensive degree where I would constantly fantasize. I fantasized more when I became pretty close with a girl, and I seemed to be romantically interested in one. I never had lust towards random girls, only girls I knew and more to the girls that I knew well. Now, I haven't fantasized about women for 1 year already, nor have I had libido. I agree with many of the things you guys say. The thing is, is that before all of this happen, I was a very secure, happy guy. Knew what he wanted in life, and I never was obsessed with anything to do with sexuality. I was never a horndog.. and now I feel insecure about everything. I just want to be at that point again where I didn't care about sexuality, because it wasn't a huge part of my life.. rather something i'd relieve occasionally and move on. I always ask myself, what I actually fear.. and my answer is nothing. I don't fear being gay, because it wouldn't really affect me much. I wouldn't be afraid about getting rejected by people, or friends. So I don't know what the problem is.. I do believe it is a good idea to get some evaluation to see if I have OCD. Because I do feel like I have to have one obsessive thought replaying in my head to live my life. There really is never peace in my head. I even remember in grade 3, when I became obsessive, and I had a fear of my mother dying. Then I've had fears that my health is at risk because there's a power plant 4 miles away from my house. Or once that I was a pedo. These irrational fears that popped up. So I don't know if this is one of them or not, or if I am in denial.
Your extreme anxiety suggests that you are afraid of something. It's just not clear what. I think that whatever it is you're afraid of is largely unconscious. Also, I have a sort of quibble re: OCD. Basically, I thing that there's a tendency to give something some name or acronym and mistake that for an explanation of something deeper. A diagnosis of OCD would just be sorta stating the obvious. Yes, you definitely obsess about things, but the important question is, WHY? I wouldn't hazard a guess, but I think that the other things you mention—your mother dying, your health, your fear of being a pedophile—are very interesting. What they seem to have in common is an anxiety about some horrible disaster befalling a child. In two cases, your are afraid of things beyond your control that could be catastrophic for you. In the third case, you worried about something inside yourself that could cause you to harm someone smaller.
This is more common than you'd think. I've talked to a lot of people, here on EC and elsewhere, who blindly went through life assuming they were straight until some things started to click and point in another direction. I've had a number of conversations with people who would even list off a whole bunch of things that, to any neutral observer, would strongly point to the fact that they're gay, but who (through denial) managed to convince themselves that these things meant nothing. And when assembled and pointed out in a way that paints a clear picture... the response is often a very strong and very sudden attack of anxiety, because all of the sudden... the wall of denial can't stand up to the reality of the facts. And of course, those people want desperately to just go back to a simple life where they didn't question themselves and were blissfully and ignorantly "straight"... except that they never were. I can't tell you if this is the case for you, but it is a surprisingly common experience for many people who come out a bit later in life (i.e, past their early-mid teens)
I can relate to a lot of what you say A21g. I'm not too sure about the OCD part either. I used to have fears I was a pedophile or psychopath too. However, it never got me down as hard as my questions now do. Just like you, my fantasies aren't spontaneous, I purposely put them in my head and they actually don't turn me on either. It's more of a constant test. Even when I'm having sex with my girlfriend I sometimes seem to be testing it. With little effect, it's not like it's helping me. I also am not really afraid of being gay. I live in a very open community and my parents would be very supportive. It's just that I don't feel the right things when looking at guys (and believe me, I do it constantly) so I don't think that's the real issue. I'm currently in therapy to address these issues. While it's going slowly (therapy always does I guess) it's definitely providing some insights. So I would absolutely recommend to see a therapist. Three months seems an awful long time to be dealing with this on your own... Probably just not very much help, but just wanted to add to Chip's point that it is actually more common than you think. You're not the only one out there with these issues.
Hey everyone, I haven't posted in here, because the past week has been an interesting one. It has been full of understanding that I was seeking for over a year now. It's interesting that it came during a time where I was trying to accept a false identity, to something I really wasn't, something that when my conscious tried to accept (being gay), my subconscious rejected. To say the least, I had an epiphany. I lived in my past, and I really figured out what was hurting me. It wasn't that I *wanted* to be with men, it was more I longed to have male friends. To share masculine interests, and I haven't had that much in life, and more recently at all. It became a deficit in my life, and when I did meet a male that I was interested in being friends with, I had mistaken my craving for a male companion, for attraction. I think a lot of your posts prompted me into looking into the past, and to analysis it. When that sudden Aha! moment came, that brought understanding. Something that I consciously believed, but that means nothing.. it's that my conscious agreed with it, for the first time. A lot of my symptoms almost immediately resided... my libido isn't back yet, but i'm figuring that will take some time, especially from not being normally functional for a year. Anyone going through this, I really feel for you. This isn't an easy thing, and it can really make one miserable. My mistake was that I subconsciously refused to bring up the past, because I thought the issue is here and now.
