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Feminism

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Sek, May 23, 2015.

?

Do you support feminism?

  1. Yes

    65 vote(s)
    82.3%
  2. No

    14 vote(s)
    17.7%
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  1. ms24601

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    I hadn't considered those scenarios, I get your point and I can see how, legally, those instances could be considered rape, but that is not what I was referring to earlier.
     
  2. Simple Thoughts

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    2 and 4. I know you're right and that upsets me.

    2 because it takes all burden of responsibility away from women and places it all on men simply because of their gender and is unimaginably sexist to both genders.

    4. Upsets me because it's part of this idea that's been going around that when men can't be raped. Like somehow it's impoosible to be raped if you have a penis. If something bad sexually happens to a man it needs a different word with zero stigma behind it so that no one will take it seriously.
     
  3. Geek

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    The people that are against feminism are either

    a) Ignorant to the real definition of feminism.
    b) a douchebag asshole that can go die

    I'm sorry but if you think that women shouldn't have equal rights to men and vise versa, you're just a bad person.

    To be a feminist means that you're in favor of EQUAL (NOT MORE) but EQUAL rights for both men and women.

    I find it sad that so many people don't understand what feminism is. It's not the group of people that call themselves feminists, who hate men. That's Misandry, not feminism. "feminazis" actually hurt the equal rights movement by pretending to be something they're not. Calling yourself a feminist if you hate men is like calling Adolph Hitler a gay jewish sympathizer. That's just factually incorrect and you don't make any sense if you make that claim.

    If you were to poll people, I would hope that an extreme majority of the country would say that men and women should have equal rights. I can tell you that a very low percentage of people would say they identify as a feminist, even though they share the exact same meaning.

    I should start an EC poll asking if they support equal rights for men and women and compare that to this thread.
     
  4. dano218

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    Well what gets me is when people try to villianize those who are pro life and say they are anti women. My grandma and mother and many other christian women oppose abortion and my grandma mourned the Rove vs. Wade ruling and I think their arguments are understandable and there is nothing hateful about them. I am pro choice myself but I have much respect for their difference in opinion and would never encourage abortion as the only choice a woman has. Pro lifers are not all anti women and many democrats in congress while they are catholic support a woman's right to choose while privately opposing abortion.
     
  5. Simple Thoughts

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    First I'm basing my judgements on actions I've seen not what the dictionary says, and secondly I'm certainly not a douchebag asshole but nice to know you want me dead =)

    "If you think that women shouldn't be equal"

    ^

    Right there you demonstrate your own lack of understanding

    Being against feminism =/= being opposed to gender equality.

    Feminism isn't a monopoly on gender equality. There are other schools of thought and philosophies with the same exact goal in mind. I don't like the direction I percieve feminism to be heading and so I choose to distance myself from it.

    Does this mean I want all women barefoot and pregnant ( as my grandma likes to yell at the t.v. sometimes when republicans say just about anything on Women's rights )?

    No. Absolutely not. I want women to have full autonomy over their own lives and their own bodies.

    Now if you ask someone like Anita Sarkeesian women having autonomy is not a good thing ( She literally has a talk thing where she's discussing why women making their own choices is only an illusion of freedom and that only by doing what she dictates at all times are they truly free. It's well...something )
     
  6. HM03

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    I believe in equal rights.
     
  7. Tightrope

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    This is a good post. It was a movement. It is now a broad category.

    I'd still vote NO.

    I agree with a lot of the things Simple Thoughts is saying. He's pointing out some not so great aspects of the movement or broad category. I see that he's highlighting that there's a double standard. There is. I think some people are so mired in the popular Kool-Aid way of looking at this that they can't see what he's saying.

    I am tired of reading or even personally being aware of how divorced men have been treated in divorces just because the other party is a woman, and who may have objectively been at fault, for one. I am tired of the whining that wage equality has not been reached. In many households, women are the primary wage earners. They now represent about half of the enrollments in many professional scholastic programs. Then, if there are more women receptionists or administrative assistants, how do you propose upping the number of men in those fields, so that it balances out pay scales? You can't. Women and men will gravitate toward different fields in different numbers.

    What I'm seeing here is a lot of men, more gay than bi or straight, who have this additional empathy for a woman's plight, almost as if denouncing their own maleness. That's what I sense and I don't care for it. Here's why I think that. Beyond a more meritocratic school setting, the world of work changes quite a bit. If there is a woman in management or one who will dictate if you get promoted, the dynamics can vary. You had better be equipped with some ties that she can't mess with in the organizational network, you can allow for the continuation of mother-offspring dynamics to let her still feel in control, or, if you are gay/bi/straight and your style and being are very in synch with female sensibilities, then the relationship is workable. If your sensibilities are more traditionally male, such as being aggressive and direct, and yet you don't wield power in an organization, I've seen it get ugly. The roles have changed quite a bit and some types of work are female dominated. This could make it tough on a guy who is a teacher, a librarian, a social worker, or a nurse, among other fields. He could hit a glass ceiling the same way women have. There is a reciprocal situation going on, and even gaining momentum, and I don't support it at all.

    I also find the concept quite simple. The underlying insinuation that men are evil, aggressive, and unscrupulous is a little offensive. Anybody with any sense of equity, irrespective of the women's movement and feminism, just pays a woman the same amount of money as a man for the same job and keeps his hands off of her if she doesn't want them on her. That's all there is to it. Am I for fairness? Yes. Am I for modern day feminism? No.
     
  8. Simple Thoughts

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    ^

    That.



    Oh I tried to respond to your wall post, but apparently it's either not working or I was punished for not agreeing with everyone else on this thread and had that ability on my account revoked ^^"

    Edit: I'm still not fully sure why, but it looks like your account doesn't accept wall posts so that might be the issue unless I'm missing something.
     
    #88 Simple Thoughts, May 23, 2015
    Last edited: May 23, 2015
  9. TENNYSON

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    So now being sensitive to women's issues means you're "denouncing your maleness"? This is getting so ridiculous it's not even funny anymore.
     
  10. Steam Mecha

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    Seriously! :eusa_doh:
     
  11. Tightrope

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    I usually don't take issue with what you say because you're very smart for your age. However, you have not been in the workforce. When you combine your natural smarts with more practical street smarts and less idealism, I expect you will be a force to be reckoned with. That said, I don't take kindly to being considered ridiculous.

    What the above means is to be obsequious and to put your tail between your legs to facilitate outcomes that aren't right, by NOT standing up for yourself or for, or alongside, other males when the "fairer sex" takes advantage of a situation because they're the "fairer sex."

    Using concrete examples, in some environments where things sort of start at parity, a more assertive woman will champion a "softer" male because he's less of a threat to her, her position, and her aspirations. If he's "harder," they may and probably will lock horns. What this means is that I've seen some women champion gay men and new era type male feminists of any sexual preference who butter them up and/or cower to them yet cause problems for straight guys, or guys of any sexual preference, who do not. Men can't complain, but women sure can and avail themselves of that option readily. There's a huge double standard.

    Along the same lines, how much do you know about divorce? Do terms like putting him in the "doghouse" or "taking him to the cleaners" sound familiar? These terms have been around for decades. It has happened to quite a few men, including some I know or have known, almost automatically because of the "fairer sex" crap and I don't find it easy to stomach. Do you? Do we need to be overly sensitive when issues like this are on the table?

    ---------- Post added 24th May 2015 at 12:15 AM ----------

    Live and learn.
     
  12. TENNYSON

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    I didn't say you were ridiculous; I said the idea that having "empathy for a woman's plight" (your words) is like "denouncing your maleness" is ridiculous. Caving in and letting people walk over you is not equality and it's not feminism. I was not talking of staying silent when injustices occur; obviously I don't support that as I am not a pushover or hypocrite. That said, one can still understand or empathize with women's issues without being an emasculated doormat. That was the implication I thought you were conveying and why I responded the way I did.
     
  13. Tightrope

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    Yes, they are my words. However, the operative word - additional - preceded empathy. A normal level of empathy is just that - normal. An exaggerated level of empathy begs the question, "What's this all about?" That is what can cause problems and I've seen it in action.

    I'm glad we ironed this out.
     
  14. TENNYSON

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    Okay, good to know :slight_smile:
     
  15. antibinary

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    Put it this way. A straight dude tells me that feminism isn't relevant while he stalks me.

    ---------- Post added 24th May 2015 at 08:48 AM ----------

    But telling people to not dress like a "slut", not to drink too much, ect DOESN'T STOP RAPE! People get raped whatever they're wearing, whatever they're drinking. And even so, if someone forgets to lock their house, the burglar is still condemned, if a child talks to a stranger and gets abducted, the abductor is still condemned. WHY IN THE NAME OF THE GOD I DON'T BELIEVE IN IS RAPE TREATED ANY DIFFERENTLY! IF A PERSON DRINKS, WEARS A SHORT SKIRT, PASSES OUT, IT'S STILL RAPE! WHY DOES THE VICTIM GET MORE PUNISHMENT FROM SOCIETY THAT THE RAPIST?!
     
  16. LD579

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    how is this thread not locked yet this is probably the biggest conglomerate discussion mess of a bunch of related issues that I've ever seen on EC
     
  17. Jinkies

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    I am a feminist. The mere definition of it is that you support feminism, which is equality of all genders. Yes, there are similar movements, but nothing really as supportive of all genders as feminism.

    "Feminists" or "Feminazis" that claim to be feminists aren't actually feminists.

    "But.. That's the 'No true Scotsman' argument!"

    No it's not, simply because those people don't believe in what feminism actually is.

    You're for equality of every gender? You're a feminist, whether you put the sticker on or not. You think all men should be killed? Sorry, not a feminist. Anybody not "woman enough"? Nope. Not a feminist, either. Feminism includes all genders, and all expressions of gender. I'm for that. I'm a feminist.
     
  18. Fallingdown7

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    Seems like most gay men on this site are misogynists (obviously with a few exceptions that I'm grateful for). Pretty gross.

    ---------- Post added 24th May 2015 at 08:11 AM ----------

    ^^^^ THIS

    Let's also not forget that the vast vast majority of rapes happen between someone and a trusted caregiver, whether that be a close friend, parent, uncle/aunt, cousin, or sibling. People who are conservatively dressed get raped more often than those with revealing clothes as well. And what about minors? Four year olds are raped on a daily basis so how the hell can you teach them to "prevent" rape? YOU CAN'T. Obviously there's common sense when it comes to drinking around strangers and everybody knows that, and that's why I hate these arguments- Stranger rape is by far the LEAST common form of rape there is. Nobody is helping ANYBODY by teaching people not to get raped as almost all rape victims are hurt by people they thought they could trust.

    The only way women can truly prevent being raped is by never ever having any sort of contact with men throughout their entire lives (As the most common perpetrators are fathers, brothers, and boyfriends). But if course if we said that we'd be blaming/generalizing the men. Nobody here gives a damn about women as people or their safety, It's all about protecting the men because "not all men are rapists!!!" (True they're not, but the majority of women are victims).


    It's victim blaming plain and simple.
     
    #98 Fallingdown7, May 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: May 24, 2015
  19. Bi in MD

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    This is not a simple yes or no answer.
    there are complexities here that would have to be considered prior to any commitment to either side of the question
     
  20. Simple Thoughts

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    You defend yourself against an outrageous claim? You must hate all women and want to watch them get raped everyday! It's the only explanation!

    ^

    basically what I read from your post.


    I have a penis so when people run around telling me I'm a rapist because of what genatalia I happen to have it's really friggin offensive. I'd never in all my life do something like that, and you bet your ass I'm not gonna sit there and just let people blanket statement me in with the worst people alive.


    I don't want to see a woman get raped, and I certainly don't care what she was wearing when it happens.


    I love this implication you've concocted in your head though that by defending our entire gender from a blanket statement we must support rapists and condone rape. It's the greatest feat of mental gymnastics I've heard in awhile, and to top it off you say we're "Not worried" or "Don't care" about women because we have the audacity to not let you accuse us by virtue of what body parts we were born with.


    Oh and about that whole "power" being necessary for the isms bullcrap that I keep seeing on and off you all might wanna remember the MAJORITY of voters are female in the U.S. so every person in power in this country was put there by a female majority :slight_smile:

    http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu/fast_facts/voters/documents/genderdiff.pdf
     
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