Sorry if I come off as rambling or unfocused. Me: 38, guy, never married. I remember noting when I was 7-8 years old how great it was to be a guy (and a white guy) in America. The idea that I was anything other than the "default setting" was never an option. I wish I had HOCD but it doesn't match. When I see a guy I like it's less omg I might be gay and more "this guy would look better with his shirt off" or "this guy would look better having sex with me". Any fear/panic is "stop eying this guy, you look like a creep." I feel like a teenager with raging hormones. I never felt like this about women growing up and I was (for lack of a better word) a "full time" porn user. Doesn't help that sexuality (in any form) didn't exist growing up. When I was 13-14 a guy in my church youth group came out me (this was the early 90s in a Jesus camp speak in tongues sort of place, so that took guts). I shut my mouth and ran. High school senior trip a guy spent time with me -- a guy who was still single when I last saw him at 30 something -- and noted I was different (was away from family, so I sorta just "lived" if that makes sense) than I was normally. I asked him how and he said he didn't know, "cool?" To be fair I might have just been cutting loose on vacation. But I've been one of those bottled up can-and-will-explode types for as long as I remember. I let it drop. I did the Jr college thing and a female friend let me know about a friend "you know he's sweet on you" in that welcome to the club tone woman have. Full stop: I ran like hell. To be fair he was out as a man could be and I was probably a shameless flirt. The other day I thought it would be nice to dance with a guy. Dancing is part of dating, right? It would be awesome. Then a thought pops in my head, more or less the same one that gets me over and over. I could see myself at some straight-woman saturated "gay bar" dancing with a decent guy. But being "spectated" by women shuts me down. The idea of being being "voided out" as a man by women sends me into a rage. I think back on the women I've been with and everything points to an 18 year kid with something to prove. I mean the rest of the fall out from being seen as gay doesn't bother me. What can they do? Call me a f-g? Rage and threaten me? At worst I buy a gun and adopt a pit bull with anger management issues. That's probably the "default setting" talking again. But at least those problems can be faced and dealt with. I might be Bi, or Bi with homo romantic this or that. But if I'm so Bi then why didn't I get married? I had my chances. Doesn't help that when I manage to put the labels away and just note "okay, I like guys. Is what it is" life gets well, better. I feel myself going from a bottled up mess to a more outgoing take life as it is. Like being a different person -- or maybe the same person with a load off his back. But that lasts until I notice a hot guy and feel the overwhelming need to play it straight. Then I'm a 15 year old boy again waiting to get home to some "me" time. And then half the time I end up cussing at myself about how I'm a man and can rock any woman I want. Then its straight porn and an act of willpower, as if I can reclaim something that isn't really there. I know much of this is about what my idea of what a man even is. I was taught by example and the church that a man without a woman wasn't a man. He was either a boy who needed to grow up or a loser/failure. Like Dave Chapelle noted, "a man's test in life is a woman." Then there's the nagging thought that all of this is my looking for an excuse my life didn't turn out (income, relationships, the works) the way it "should have." Then there's god/faith/church. I'm an agnostic anymore (most of the time) but I still can't get my head around the idea of a "gay christian." I'm not knocking others but I just can't get it. But that's another issue, really. I need to finish up and post this before I lose my nerve (again). But here are some pointless questions. Has anyone else wondered if they're just talking themselves gay? I mean if I talked myself straight before how is this different? With the marriage ruling (gays are people now) and Catelyn more or less living something I fear (not being a man anymore) I wonder if this is just a loser's overactive imagination. For guys around 40+, is there any really difference between out and alone and not out? I mean dating for everyone sours after 30, to be honest. Is teenager-level lust normal? My problem is at work I'm surrounded by guys who work for a living (and work out) and eying up coworkers is disrespectful, wrong, and at some point going to cause me problems. Doesn't help I work a desk everyone ends up walking past and I must be approachable my entire shift. Sorry for the wall of text, PC
> For guys around 40+, is there any really difference between out and alone and not out? > I mean dating for everyone sours after 30, to be honest. I had been "out and alone" for 20 years, and was perfectly happy with that, when I met a guy I really liked. We dated, and it was good. Eight years later we are partnered and live together. Maybe that's not the norm, I dunno.
I have, and I think it's just crazy making. It can really mess with your mind, but when it comes down to it, I think we just have to ask ourselves what gender do we fantasize about deep down inside. Some people might answer both, but I know for me, the answer has always been women. I love men to death, and I find some very attractive, but I do not fantasize about them, and they don't make me aroused. When I was with them sexually, before I came out, I secretly fantasized about women to make it enjoyable for myself. Sorry if that was way too much information, but the conversation seemed to call for it.
Welcome to EC PC :welcome: I'm glad that you didn't lose your nerve this time and posted! If you would excuse my candor, at some level you already know that you are either bisexual or gay. Like many of us on EC, your real challenge is accepting yourself as bisexual or gay. You have been brought up and conditioned by society and the church to want to be an upstanding and straight member of society. The perfect man. I tried so hard to live up to these expectations myself. Despite my best attempts at denial, I realized and accepted that I'm different from this mold, that I am gay and proud ride: This is the hardest part of coming out - to stop resisting the truth of who we are. Each of us do it at our own pace. You are not a pathetic coward; you have a different pace for coming out. When you are ready, you will find the reason to stop lying to yourself. Perhaps you are tired of admiring other guys from afar and want to taste the real thing. Perhaps you are tired of living a lie for the benefit of your family. Whatever the reason, you will find the strength to start accepting your sexuality. Best
Based on what you have said, you are gay and in denial, and have been for several decades, choosing celibacy instead coming out. The world isn't going to end if you just accept it and start looking for a guy who is your soulmate and turns you on when he takes his shirt (and pants) off. Don't waste any more of your one and only life overthinking this; start living it. Not such a big deal any more to be gay, and you don't have to be flamboyant about it where you work, or come out dramatically to your coworkers. Look at yourself in the mirror and say "I am gay, and it is OK" over and over again, until it is.
Blue. Thanks for some much needed perspective. I think my concerns all stem back the entire "if you're single you're not a complete/real person' mindset that got drilled into me growing up. The idea of being single, gay and happy wasn't really on my radar. Sue. "Crazy making" is my favorite new phrase, thank you. A little bit of sanity goes a long way. And if there's such a thing as "that's exactly the right amount of information" that was it. Sienna: Thanks for the welcome and some much needed "centering" It just seems that everyone else has life sorted out by high school and here I am with my HS classmates kids going to prom (or soon will be). Not the most inspiring username but I'm hoping it will at least goad me in the right direction. Yossarian: You're right. The mirror thing DOES help. Thank you. Again, thanks all. Apologies if I lurk far more than I post but I tend to overthink before I speak, as it were. PC
To echo what has been said above - since coming out I have felt a lot more liberated in myself generally, which goes beyond who I want to take to bed. There is a great freedom in challenging the norms of what is expected of being a man or woman. Not in the sense of being difficult, but in being authentic and true to yourself. I was trying so hard to be a straight, "good girl" version of me, and it was incredibly tiring. The make up I wore was a mask or caricature of another person that didn't fully exist. I would love to be in a relationship - but being out and single rather than closeted and single is a lot better way of being - as you have freedom to be honest with both yourself and others. Wishing you the best.
I think you really have to just figure out what do you believe REALLY makes a man. For me, its being hardworking, always doing what I have to do to take care of my kids, strong morals and ethics, things like that. I'm not religious as I see it all as merely man's attempt at making sense of a universe that's bigger than comprehension. Who I'm attracted to does not take away from who I am as a man. And breaking the norm, shattering people's expectations of what is "normal", well that's just bonus.
I can completely relate to the "if you're single you're not complete"---after college I did that. Dating men....it felt like going to job interviews-I'm serious----all to not be single. I could not even imagine dating being fun. There were people who thought it was fun! Really? I did it because "you're supposed to get married and live in a Mc Mansion or there's something the -#** wrong with you." That's what I had drilled into my head. I can't believe how much I bought into it because I know there was a part of me that knew better, there was a very, very smart 19 year old inside me who knew who she was who repressed everything she knew she was to be be a miserable young woman in her mid twenties forcing herself "like" a man she was with, let alone "love" him. And as I'm telling all of us who've come out a bit older, you are NOT a pathetic coward. No way. Things are different for everyone. Just because people came out at younger ages than you does not make them "brave" and you a "coward." If your experience of repressing and compartmentalizing feelings was anything close to mine, I really do not think a coward would have survived it! Some people live in situations where they are able to do more "self actualizing" activity when they are younger. They get to know themselves better while younger. For various reasons, other people may not have that opportunity until later in life. Treat yourself with the kindness and love you'd treat a friend in the same situation. If you had a very close friend who came out that you'd known for years, would you not treat him kindly, especially knowing his life story, his specific trials and situations? Take this time to learn to love yourself and come to a better understanding of your particular life journey with compassion.
If anyone doubts the toxic influence that fundamentalist religion can have, here's yet more proof. Bravo for dumping the toxic churches out of your life. The next step is to dump their lingering toxic influence in your mind. Being a (cisgender) straight white guy is the most privileged race/orientation/gender combination in the USA, but it isn't a guarantee of riches or happiness. Those ultra-conservative Christians maintain a world-view that denies the existence or humanity of gay men. They have gotten more strident and aggressive in this tactic in the wake of the marriage equality decision. Them saying that a guy is "not truly a man" until married to a woman is utter BS. Technically, a "man" is an adult male, nothing more or less. Other qualities surrounding masculinity, morality, gender roles, etc. get tangled up in this, but in the end, any fully-grown human male is a "man." So starting right now, you no longer have to force yourself to jerk off to straight porn to prove to yourself that you are a man. As guys age (40s-50s), it becomes more difficult to force an orgasm as compared to in your teens-20s. If you keep doing this, one day you'll find you don't get off to straight porn (or with a woman in bed). It's best to deal with this issue now so you don't convince yourself you're "not really a man" later just because you no longer have raging hormones that allow you to "perform" when you're "not really into it." Lastly - I don't think you "talked yourself straight," nor that you are "talking yourself gay" now. People aren't just "talked into" one orientation or another; it isn't so trivial as choosing a flavor of ice cream. Understanding your sexual orientation is a complicated process that takes time. Most gay guys report some period of "confusion" in their lives as they overcome the anti-gay social conditioning and understand their attractions. It seems you've been attracted to guys for a long time (early teens until now, about 25 years), but suppressed those attractions because of religion and social stigmas. What if you never "talked yourself" straight or gay, but rather were a gay guy all along, just having to work through the issues surrounding self-acceptance?
I don't think it is a matter of talking ones self straight or gay. It's a matter of acceptance. Acceptance of who you are. I'd love nothing better than to be in a loving relationship. It took me till I was 51 to accept the fact that I am Gay. I'm just beginning to navigate the Gay world. In time I'm sure I'll figure out the relationship part. Till then I'm enjoying just being me. As to the mirror on my 51st birthday I looked in the mirror and admitted to myself I was Gay. It's been all positive from there.
Thanks everyone. This thread has helped a ton. Not sure I can fully say "I'm out to myself" but the idea of putting myself first in my own life doesn't seem as foreign now. Fact is I've got to quit following a life script that clearly doesn't fit me and accept that I have as much right to be happy as anyone. Where that lands me, who knows. Thanks again. PC
It takes tremendous courage to be brutally honest with yourself and look in the mirror and say to yourself "I am gay!". You'll know when you're out to yourself when you cry tears of joy. You will have good days and bad days; you are clearly on the path towards self acceptance. Hang in there, and we're here to love and support you brother (&&&) Best SF
This might be TMI/rambling. But that's what I do, it seems. Well it has been a week. Not sure why I'm bumping/posting other than as a reminder to myself. But it has been a week. Bad days do happen. Then life goes on. Been sober for almost as long. Looking back I've never drank to be social or have a good time or be the life of the party. I drank to hide. A guy holding up a wall at a party is a loser. A drunk being held up by a wall is an over-achiever. So I was (am, really) doing better. But then I see the magazine ad with the pretty girl or a lady walks by in yoga pants. Its hard to explain how I feel. Have you ever put a book shelf or something from Ikea? It's like that. Trying not to sound vulgar but its a case of remembering the instructions. Like you see that bookshelf at a friends and think, hey I remember how that goes. Then it's all, see you can be straight if you wanted. Then the accusations. You're a creepy old man. Part of the mindset growing up was gays = pedos and gay men just wanted young men as "replacement woman". So I'm calling myself the very thing I was taught to hate and fear. Then I think maybe I'm just an old chauvinist looking for an excuse. Or an ax murdering sadist with no respect for anyone at all. In general just a loser looking for a magic answer to his problems. Then I remember trying to hold a conversation with Mr I'm-young-and-work-out without embarrassing myself. Then I remember how cold I've felt regarding sexuality in the past. As if everyone else on the planet lacked self control. Then I feel guilty for treating the women I've been with the way I had, following the script but not having any real soul involved -- and thinking that's the way things should be. Then I I get hit by a parade of compromises. You're bi. Sexuality is fluid. Social norms and expectations. Twenty years of porn. If I'm obsessing about anything at all, it's the idea that I might be "straight enough" to live a life to match the person people see. Granted that's overstating it because I can't help but feel/know that everyone will say "what, you're finally admitting it?" when I (not if I, I hope) get to that point. In all it gets to be more than I want to handle. I know I'm a better person when I admit to myself that I'm gay or at least not straight. I'm not that bottled up guy drinking in the corner while everyone is dancing. Short version: (posting this more for myself, so I can't hide from it here, too). I'm a mmo gamer and an old friend (who lives out of town) hit me up online to play his game of choice. This had been a weekly routine. Told him I was burned out on said game and he went on his way. Was I burned out? Maybe a little, but not much. It was more given a choice between being social and not being social, I opted out. Shortest version: Had a bad day. Messed up. Will do better tomorrow.
You need to be doing your drinking and hiding in a GAY bar, not a straight bar, if you are going to drink at all. Try it on and see how it feels, not sit around and speculate how it might feel. That is where you will figure out what you want to do, not sitting alone and thinking about it; if it were that simple doing it alone, it wouldn't have taken 38 years to get it done. Society has changed a lot in the last 5 years; a whole lot. Gay people can get married now. They can be seen in public together. They can buy houses and adopt children together. You are still playing by rules that are 30 years old, and hiding to survive when the war is almost over, and WAY overthinking what you want to do instead of doing anything at all. Come out to someone you trust, in private, not at work. Then, when you see that it is no big deal any more, come out a little more, then a little more, until you have come out enough to live your life without fear of being what they told you was wrong 30 years ago. You never were a pedophile, or a creepy old man; or a creepy young man; you are just a slow starter, like so many of us were, living by rules from a different time when being gay was actually illegal, never doing the explorations that kids now do in THESE times when they hit puberty, not when they start getting invitations from the AARP. The game isn't over. You are not too old to play. Get started today, you are burning daylight. Don't think about it any more, just do it. Life is short, then it's over. It's not about where you are going and simply faking straight for a while until you get there to avoid embarrassment in front of homophobes, it is about being who you are and enjoying the ride in the body you were born with, because the ride IS the destination, not what happens to the corpse when it is over.
Have you ever bought beautiful furniture from a high end store, true quality that's built to last and that a subset of the general population can appreciate? Have you inspected the furniture and noticed how you feel about the details compared to that Ikea bookshelf? Have you appreciated the smell of the furniture? Is this piece of furniture so fine that you want to make love to it? How does having that furniture in your life make you feel? You'll know you are gay when you are making out with another guy and you feel sparks and fireworks that just aren't there with women. This of course requires you to get out there and meet other guys. Stop paralyzing yourself by overthinking this. It's time to go shopping for some fine furniture!
Get out there. Make yourself available. Take some chances. Let your hair down at a gay bar. Do the mirror thing...do you feel better after saying "I am gay" and "I love being gay" a few times? I know I do. Kiss some guys. Hug some guys.
You're right, all of you. Overthinking is the word for it. I need to apologize, really. My last post was self indulgent and attention seeking (my words/imho) ramble to avoid that I've got to keep moving. Thanks for the reality check everyone. I needed it. PC
No need to apologize - we've all had our share of self-indulgent posts. What's important is that you keep on posting, and we'll continue to keep your honest Looking forward to your future posting where you describe how you met this guy and wow it was like fireworks... (&&&)
