Feminism vs. Gay men

Nekoko · Oct 12, 2015

gravechild said: ↑

RainbowBright said: ↑

I think many women find drag queens to be very sexist and offensive. And gay men can be very unkind to women, talking down to them, telling them how to dress without being asked, saying they are better looking in a dress than a woman, etc.

Not ALL gay men by any means. All people are individuals.

But men in drag do need to remember that being a woman is not related in any way to wearing long fingernails, weaves, tight dress, heels, and makeup. They are not "more" of a woman, or better women, than actual women. I have heard quite a few gay men speak on this in a way that was extremely offensive and derogatory to all women.

Not all gay men are into drag, but there is a faction of the community that is, and within that circle, there is a group that uses it in a way that bastardizes and twists the actual definition of womanhood, and the respect of women in any sense but according to her physical appearance. One's ability to be perceived as sexy to straight men is not the measure of a woman.
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The last time I checked, they never said they were "real women" - they're impersonators. Plenty of female entertainers have dressed in extremely flamboyant outfits, enough to rival those used in drag shows (Cher was a huge supporter, so it's more give and take in some cases). Is womanhood defined by the amount of make up one wears? Or the size of your heels?

When it comes to drag, there are few rules, and it's a source of empowerment for many inside and outside the gay community. Some can get a bit carried away, but I wouldn't label the entire tradition as being negative. Try not to generalize: your post might have good intentions, but in the end, typing all queens as some type of villain for being "sexist" is no better than your straight male jock ridiculing them for going against the grain of "acceptable" male behaviors and expressions.

If more people took the time to research it, there would be less hurt feelings on both sides.
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Gravechild, I could kiss you, you said it better than I could!

Kinky · Oct 13, 2015

Feminism discussions are like porn. Over time, they get repetitive, and you can see where they are going. Here is a position, let's change to another position. Then to keep things a bit more interesting, people throw in seemingly related issues, just like the number of porn channels. But the essence will always the same.

Pornolosophy.

Simple Thoughts · Oct 13, 2015

Aldrick said: ↑

Simple Thoughts said: ↑

Feminism is a tangled up confusing mess. It has no consistent message...
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Maybe it is confusing and complicated to you, but that is only because you refuse to acknowledge the fundamental core element that unites all feminist thought, A.K.A. the consistent message that you say doesn't exist: the belief that all people, regardless of gender, should be equal.

To the degree that it is "confusing" it is a bit like saying atheism is confusing. Atheism is the belief that no deities exist--that there are no gods. Yet, beyond that, atheism is a huge diverse line of thought. I extend atheism out to include the disbelief in all things supernatural, but the reality is that there are some atheists who believe in ghosts and other stupid shit. Likewise, the philosophical implications of atheism is hotly debated, and even how we engage with non-atheists is contested. Some atheists are more militant, seeking to completely eradicate all superstition and religion in general, while others prefer an entirely different approach.

Looking at the complexities between atheists, and then asserting that it is a 'tangled up confusing mess with no consistent message' would just be false. Atheists all agree on a single core principle (that there are no gods), and beyond that core principle there is a huge range of diversity. Feminism is the same. All feminists agree that there should be equality between the genders, as that is the core of feminism--if you don't believe that, then you are fundamentally changing the meaning of feminism--but beyond that there is a huge range of diversity of views. Some are good. Others are bad.

LOL. You say, "feminism focuses only on women" when just prior to that you point out that feminists also discuss LGBT and racial issues as well. :rolle:

So, I guess this is supposed to be an attack on intersectional feminism? Do you even know what intersectional feminism is?

It sounds like to me that you attack feminism because it focuses heavily on issues facing women, and then out the other side of your mouth you attack feminism because it attempts to address issues that don't ONLY impact women. You realize this is logically incoherent, correct?

Wrong. I am a feminist and on balance I spend more time talking about issues facing men than women, primarily because I am speaking to other men about feminism. The only reason the larger community of feminism focuses so heavily on women's issues is because the overwhelming majority of feminists are women. There is obvious self-interest there--it's like attacking the LGBT community for primarily focusing on LGBT issues. It's not that we don't care about other issues, it's just a matter of self-interest.

If more men become feminists, then the issues facing men get a broader voice, which is why it is important for more men to become feminists.

Except, that "working together" has no underlying philosophical goal involved. Feminism is NOT just about say, ending pay discrimination against women, as an example. It is not just about tackling "problems." It is, as I previously stated, about creating equality between the genders.

Once again, I spend a great deal of time discussing issues that face men from the perspective of feminism. Some of the more broader topics that I regularly tackle are cultural notions that men can't be or shouldn't be victims (this involves everything from emotional abuse, physical abuse, to rape), to valuing the bodies of men (specifically as it relates to circumcision and other violent acts against men), and more broadly an assault on patriarchal culture which oppresses men in countless ways (as it oppresses everyone).

Simple Thoughts said: ↑

Also in a democracy where the majority of voters are female it's hard to make the case for patriarchy, yet somehow feminism manages to sell this boogeyman.
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So, to even say this it makes it clear that you don't even know what patriarchy is, because it demonstrates the belief that women can't perpetuate patriarchy which is blatantly false. Women perpetuate patriarchy all the time, just as men do. It is no different than when a gay man holds stupid beliefs which advance heterosexism against our community (i.e. verbal attacks on feminine gay men). Does the advancement of patriarchy hurt women? Of course. However, the advancement of patriarchy hurts everyone.

The problem with patriarchy is that it CANNOT be fixed through the government. It is a social and cultural problem, and it can only be solved through radical social and cultural changes. This is one of the reasons, in my view, many feminists run away from what is necessary to actually achieve the aims of feminism, instead focusing on easier to solve problems (i.e. equal pay, for example).

What is patriarchy in a nutshell? It's a social and cultural system that values men (and more specifically perceptions of masculinity) over women (and more specifically perceptions of femininity). This is the reason so many insults against men are degrading them to women: you're a sissy, stop acting like a girl, man up, etc. Simply saying things like that means that you have certain stereotypes about how a man should act and be, and certain stereotypes about women and that you clearly view those stereotypes about women as being less favorable than the stereotypes you hold about men. This is why, among gay men, feminine gay men are always under direct assault both inside and outside of the community.

The type of system that I advocate for, the realization of the feminist goal, is a society in which gender stereotypes and gender roles cease to exist. Gender simply becomes a personal identity. I feel like a man, therefore I am a man. What does it mean to be a man? I get to define that. To be a man, all I have to do is say that I am a man, and that is enough. There is no inherent value--negative or positive--that is attached to that label, because people are not viewed through a gendered lens, they are viewed as individuals.

I've often said the litmus test to see when feminism is successful, is the day that a biological male who identifies as a heterosexual male, can wake up, decide that he wants to be a fashion designer, decide that he wants to present himself in a feminine way (long hair, make-up, clothing that we'd consider feminine), and this male is a teenager. He can walk to school presenting as his authentic self. No one ostracizes him. No one questions his sexuality. No one questions his gender identity. No one sees him as being 'less than a man.' No parents call to complain. No one makes fun of him. In fact, he is considered to be perfectly normal by his High School peers. ...and all of this would take place in a rural small town in Mississippi, Alabama, or Oklahoma. For me, that is the litmus test for the victory of feminism which is ultimately the destruction of patriarchal culture.

As a radical Queer Feminist I argue that it is queer people who are the keys to the destruction of patriarchal culture. What unites our community is that we are all deviating from expected gender roles and norms. Men are supposed to marry women. Women are supposed to marry men. Biological sex and gender are the same--a woman can't have a penis. It is no accident that trans women and non-gender conforming gay men are the most often targeted for violence and hatred by society. It is because as biological males by deviating from patriarchal norms, we are abandoning the privilege given to us by society. We are electing, in being authentic to who we are, to give up that privilege in order to live authentic lives. As society grows to accept queer values surrounding sexuality and gender, the roles of gender and gender stereotypes in our culture and society will begin to erode. This alone may not be completely enough, but it will bring us as close as we can possibly get to dismantling patriarchal culture.

...and by the way, when I do advocate for the equality and rights of women, it is not just because I believe women ARE equal to men and deserve the same rights and opportunities. It is also from a position of self-interest. Equality for queer people is directly linked to the way women are treated in society. It is not an accident that in nations where women enjoy more equality to men, are also some of the best and safest places for queer people to live. Conversely, places where women are NOT equal to men and particularly places where women are still viewed as property, it is some of the most dangerous and worst places for queer people to live. By elevating the status of women, it also undermines patriarchal social values and customs, which in turn opens the door for queer people.
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Wow...

First off The LGBT/Racial issues point and the Focuses only on women point were two seperate and unrelated points I was making. I was saying feminism, through intersectionality, tries to lay claim to other people's issues ( as opposed to offering support like any other movement would do ), and when it does come to gender feminism focuses only on women's issues with the passing remark about something relating to men.

I completely disagree with almost everything you had to say about patriarchy

Patriarchy- a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.

In terms of power women are, as I said, the majority of voters so the argument could fairly be made that they hold more political power. Now what about exclusion? Well in the areas where the quota isn't met ( so to speak ) Companies and fields of study such as STEM are bending over backwards desperately trying to get more women interested but they simply choose not to get involved which means they aren't excluded they just don't hold the same priorities.

Anyways

My point here is simply this. Women can do whatever they want and no one is going to stop them or even try to ( unless it's something crazy like murder people ). Most places, at least in the US, at this point are desperate to meet whatever gender quota.

There isn't some mass subconcious effort by all of society to belittle and beat down women, that's completely insane.

Your litmus test for feminism is intriguing.

You basically want a society where people can present, do, and be whatever/whoever they want without anyone throwing a fit about it, yes?

Same here but...

Where you say patriarchy I say Christianity and puritanical values of a 2,000 year old book.

If you take Christians ( and Muslims ) out of the equation you're left with like almost no one opposed to how men choose to present or women for that matter.

Willa · Oct 13, 2015

I'm gay, I'm married to a transwoman, I'm a proud hairy feminist, and I think gay guys are pretty rad. I mean... anybody can be a misogynistic asshole - including women. I'm sure there are some pretty sexist gay guys out there. But I don't think it's because they're gay. That mindset is because they're victims of a machismo society just like everybody else.

Sexist society hurts everybody, and actually I think it hits gay men really hard, because it perpetuates gay stereotypes, especially the idea that gay men are like women. It's hurtful to all of us. That's why feminism is so important! If we destigmatize femininity, we free everybody to be who they are! And that includes big masculine guys, too, I promise. Seriously, it just makes everyone's life easier.

waternation · Oct 14, 2015

Simple Thoughts said: ↑

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssafNkHj5Lk

I'm pretty sure he has every article linked in the description. If not let me know and I'll find as many as I can

I'm wondering what the LGBT community thinks about this given that feminism is now coming after the LGBT community specifically gay men.

Let the conversation begin.
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Tbh, I clicked out of the video after five seconds... I don't really want to watch something that lumps all 'gay men' together like they're all the same and I find this really frusterating. Too many people say that lesbians are man haters, and this is just the same thing.

Unnnnnng, it is annoying. :eusa_doh:

Open Arms · Oct 14, 2015

I agree with Awesome. A few of you really need to look up the definition of feminism.
Some of you are judging it based on extremes, just as many straights judge being gay by the extremes. Of course, women resent this.

Feminism vs. Gay men

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