Just finished reading the Velvet Rage and felt the need to commit. To be fair I knew it was a gay self-help book and not a coming-out book from reviews and such online, and addressed a life I haven't exactly lived (the typical/stereotypical gay man) as much as it did anything else. That said I felt at least 75-80% applied to me (almost 39, not out, never part of the "gay scene") and was worth the time to read. That said I remember saying to myself "and that's why I didn't do that" regarding some of the self-destructive aspects of being out/living that life, or "this doesn't fit me at all." But those moments were followed by others that did, making for a frustrating read at times. I also wonder if the phrase "narcissist" could replace the "gay man", as least so far as Mr Downs uses it. Given my life growing up I can see how perfectionism (a narcissistic trait) becomes a common response to emotional trauma. I don't think the word Narcissist or narcissism was used once, however. Given that the book is about dealing with self-hate I can understand what feels like a willful omission. Both involves false selves, self destruction and an endless hunger for validation. Mindfulness/Buddhist thinking permeates the work. This isn't a bad thing, but for someone who has identity issues (don't laugh) I find the ideas somewhat impractical as without an in inner critic motivating me I'm liable to sit under a tree until I die. Short version: This book was NOT written for later-in-life guys living in flyover land. Or for bisexuals, really. Read it anyway. PC
First, great job on following through on this baby step and ordering and reading the book. I'll add some more thoughts to the original thread. I agree the book may not be 100% applicable for men who identify as bisexual. Certainly the higher one scores on the Kinsey scale, the more applicable the book. For a bisexual man who scores 3 on the Kinsey scale, he was able to participate in traditional heteronormative adolescence of liking girls and all that goes with it. For a man higher on the Kinsey scale, he was less able to genuinely participate in the ritual of adolescence and hence experienced more alienation during adolescence. While you identify as bisexual, I don't recall where you are on the Kinsey scale. Regardless of your participation level during adolescence, certainly you share one aspect with gay men insofar as you have a secret about your sexuality that you are not disclosing. Because of this secret, I think the book may be applicable to later-in-life guys living in flyover land, especially one who does not set foot in the local gay bar. My hope in your reading the book is that you might find some insights (primarily from the first part of the book) that might help you understand the shame that you feel because you like guys. For example the lightbulb went off for me when I realized that my interest in the finer things in life was a compensation mechanism that I unconsciously used for self-validation while in denial/the closet. Hopefully you found one or two nuggets about your own behavior that might be the basis for the next baby steps. I've found that the book requires several readings over time as one becomes increasingly comfortable with his sexuality. For example, Part 3 will become more relevant to you as you gain comfort as a bisexual man.
It is a very useful book (hope I didn't come across otherwise) and I intend to read it at least a few more times. As for bisexuality/anything else it really wasn't a fair criticism on my part. If you're not happy being attracted to men, then you're not happy and the book is about being gay. It is a book worth reading. The joke is even though I can't relate to "fab" and the world he references I can still see how I fit the mold for years. AKA perfectionism, rage, anger, workaholism, the entire list. It was only after a rather drastic professional setback did I take the time to see how much of a "I am what I produce" dysfunctional robot I really was. The phrase "self hate" really applied. My hangup is I can't believe that this one thing about a person can change things that much, or that I couldn't see it before. That, and I don't feel I even have an authentic self to be authentic about. I don't think therapy will be much to use to me until I change that. Somehow. Thanks again. PC
This one thing about a person is very fundamental - the foundation upon which everything else is built. If you build a house on a shaky foundation, you will have trouble. The same goes for your life. If you build your life on a shaky foundation, you will face trouble, such as perfectionism, rage, anger, workaholism, etc. In many ways you are driving with one foot on the brake and focusing on being a "I am what I produce" dysfunctional robot. There is an authentic self in you; it's hard for you to see that because you've been a robot for all these years. This is your coping mechanism for the shame. Even though you ignore something, that doesn't mean it does not exist. Your authentic self is there, waiting to be discovered. Would you mind sharing more about the professional setback? I'm guessing it relates to this one thing as well. Therapy would be useful to overcome the negative self-talk. Remember the earlier thread where you talked about the "shiny new club to beat myself over the head with" and gave all kinds of reasons not to take action on the sexuality front? Therapy could also be helpful in getting you to understand how denying part of your foundation might be impacting your life once you are ready to explore that as well.
I was self employed in a building-related trade when the housing crash hit. Lost the family business I had worked in for as long as I could remember (from grade school up). To be honest had it lasted this conversation wouldn't be happening. The "only" reason I never married was my insistence on beating the odds, as it were, and actually having a functional business AND a functional marriage (my parents only had the former). There's no way I could've been anything other than be my father's son (and straight) in that field, given some of our clients. I remember working on churches and Jesus camps. And the clients that didn't fit that mold seemed straight out of a Chevy commercial. After that (it has been a few years) I switched to a low pressure/hermit lifestyle. Settled into a lower demand night shift job and chilled out for a bit. Looking at it now this was just a counter-response/rebellion whatnot. But not the worst thing. It seems silly but what brought me here was a very long-way-around bit of introspection. I had taken up writing (I'm no good at it, don't ask) as part of a creative "bucket list" I had ignored from high school on. Wrote a few novels then -- as cliche as it is -- saw that I had written myself into one of my books. I mean who was I fooling? Men are attractive, the end. So that's what brought me here. You're probably right. It just feels that until I figure some things out therapy is basically arranging deck chairs on the titanic. I'm just not in a mental space where it would productive. Not ready for another go. I'm sure this is just my building a nice catch-22 (I can't go to therapy until I don't need therapy), but there it is. I suspect the idea that a person has total control over their life is something I need to get over. Thanks again PC
Since the professional setback was caused by the economic downturn rather than personal meltdown, it's not as relevant to our discussion as I had originally suspected. It does offer insights as to why you could not come out earlier. The only thing I would question is the first bolded statement. When I was in high school, I did not date girls because I was focused on academics. In hindsight that was a lie I was telling myself at the time. I really didn't find girls that attractive. I used academics as a well disguised closet. It sounds like focusing on the family business may have been a similar diversion for you. How you got here does not sound silly at all. In fact the novel that you wrote in high school where you wrote yourself into the book sounds very relevant. Can you say more about the second bolded text? Therapy may give you the tools to help you figure those things out before the titanic sinks, so yeah, I'm definitely picking up the catch-22 vibe It's clear you don't want therapy and prefer :bang:
To be fair/honest, I think when you're self employed everything is personal. Others survived the downturn, I didn't. In the book it mentions someone who loses out on promotions because he was basically a horse's ass. I had a lead employee -- a person I still count as a friend -- quit for basically the same reason. The image of what I/what my business is ran headfirst into the steamroller of reality. The question I'm dealing with is which rage monster (if not both) caused it. Joke is of all the things I can be self critical about, this is one I'm starting to see the positives in. Dysfunctional systems break and the only "mistake" I made was not seeing it for myself, before. There was always an excuse. Morality, school, work. Always something more important. Sometimes the excuses conflicted and I didn't notice. I know that at times I turned the same critical death-laser I used on myself on dating/romance. I didn't give myself or het dating a fair chance. I know the easy answer is, duh, you're gay, move on, but it just doesn't feel easy at all. I can't tell where the need for validation (/sarcasm "look at me, I'm a man! See, I can objectify women just fine -- there goes one now") ends and authentic attraction begins. I misspoke. The book I meant was after my life had shifted. It forced me to really stop and look at my life and the things I had willfully ignored. Granted, a person can write about whatever, but that doesn't mean they're into whatever. AkA Stephen King isn't a murderer. But when the character in your book is a poorly written author avatar who moves, changes his name and the first thing he does is start a relationship with a man? Dude. Time to be honest. I've got to deal with that one way or another. To be blunt this I what I meant by EC being a crutch. Here I am faking progress because the real event is simply too much to handle. What I don't want to do is go dark for a few months again and then come back here for my illusion-of-progress fix. That's not useful at all. Thanks again. PC
Thanks for eloborating. It sounds like this is relevant to our discussion after all. My take here is that your business career was built on a shaky foundation where you denied your true sexuality and that the denial manifested itself in the ways that you identify above. It's encouraging that you are beginning to see the failure of your business as a positive because it forced you to confront the lurking issue of your sexuality. It sounds like you've also used excuses to keep yourself in the closet. Be kind to yourself here. You've identified as straight for 39 years, and it takes time to identify and tease out your authentic attraction from your closeted persona. For now it may be helpful to operate on the assumption that you are bisexual and need to accept and explore your attractions to guys. As you explore, you'll get more clarity about where on the Kinsey scale you fall. My gut is that you are not being a Stephen King here Rather you are using your creative writing as a form of self-disclosure. It's clear to me that you are expressing a yearning to have a relationship with a man through your novel. By sharing the story about the failure of your business and your subsequent self-reflection, I'm sensing a shift in you. As such, it's not fair to yourself to say that you are not making progress. You are actually making real progress this time. You are entering the unconsciously competent stage. You've pretended to be straight for 39 years. It takes time for one to process and dismantle their faux lifestyle. Instantaneous change and acceptance is a myth. It takes preparation before the lightbulb is triggered. I agree that it would be a mistake for you to go dark when you are on the verge of a breakthrough. It's definitely up to you to push yourself to do these things, whether you choose baby steps to build muscle or take a bigger leap. It's not like I'm able to knock on your front door and invite you for a drink at the gay bar. That's why it's important to have gay friends in real life to supplement EC. HTH
I want to thank you again for being patient as you have been. It has been a real help. I find myself needing another reality check. I'm sure I am just chasing what-if ghosts at this point but here it goes. For some reason the idea of random whatever with a total stranger seems far less risky than simply walking into a gay bar. It feels right but seems upside down. I wonder if there's some checkbox in my head I have to fill before I can just move on. It makes some sense but to be honest I don't take much for granted anymore. My current plan is to wait out the nasty week of weather we're due for and then just go to it. My fear is unless I get "me" on my own side the moment I'm out (in any form) I'll be slinking back in. I've spent my entire life being all or nothing so I don't think that habit will change, which I'm sure is overstating things. That's the first question, I guess. Does this at least seem rational? The second is a man question. Ugh. Ya, drama for me. On one of the hookup slanted dating sites I recognized a gent I knew years ago. To be blunt he was at least the age I am now when I knew him as a teenager -- and he sort of tripped my creep meter. Of course at the time I was tied up in religious knots which didn't help. For the life of me I don't know how I should honestly feel about it, today. Part of me wants to solve both issues at once. I mean not to be a self absorbed jackleg but I'm sure he would be game. But in many ways his entire life is a warning about how we all need to shut up and be straight. But this is also a smaller town so if I ever decided to live out it would only be a matter of time before we crossed paths. But if I do then I've taken the random out of said hookup. I don't know. Problem is he's not someone I would see dating. So I don't know. I simply can't tell if that is more mess than I can handle, or that I'm missing out a RL friend, or that I'm just asking for a stalker. Your thoughts? Thanks again PC
Let me paraphrase what I think you are saying. A hookup is less risky than walking into a gay bar because the former retains an element of secrecy whereas the latter is basically coming out in your town because of the gossip that goes on. You also recognize that until you have gained more confidence and fully invest yourself in coming out, you are likely to slink back into the closet and take another break from EC if you go to the gay bar. While counterintuitive, this makes sense because know yourself and have thought through your likely reaction to the situation. Here's my take. I'm guessing he's in his early sixties now, so the age difference is fine for a hookup. I'm inferring that he's openly gay, and if so, gay guys tend to be a little more touchy feeling as friends. So it's quite possible that you hook up now and become friends at some point. Given the constraints of small town living, this seems like a reasonable approach. Please be safe and realize that it will probably take more than one time at bat to get totally comfortable with another guy.
